 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-02 17:12
We watched the NY Eve performance of the NY Philharmonic on tape last night. They played Tchaikovsky 1st Pia concerto wonderfully with Yang Yang.
For the second half, they played the second act of The Nutcracker Ballet. For this, the staffing of the woodwinds changed in what seemed to me to be an odd way. A third flutist joined the corps and seemed to take over the principle's job (or at least double the first part). 2nd flute too up her piccolo. A third clarinetist turned up, and the woman on 2nd moved to bass clarinet. The single oboist from the concerto played English horn, and two other oboists came on board.
Oh, and the concert mistress was displaced by a new fellow.
The principal clarinetist played the beautiful exposed lead part of the Waltz of the Flowers astonishingly well --leaving me to wondering "how he did that." ..and his A didn't have the gaudy cocobollo barrel he uses on his Bb.
What great music, and so few woodwind players able to be involved in its generation.
Bob Phillips
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Author: GBK
Date: 2011-01-02 17:30
I only caught the 2nd half of the concert (Nutcracker Ballet) but what most likely happened was that the associate principals played the 1st half of the concert and the "regular" principals played the 2nd half.
For the flutes: Robert Langevin is the principal. He played the Nutcracker, Mindy Kaufman, played piccolo.
Mark Nuccio, as usual, played beautifully on The Nutcracker. Alucia Scalzo played 2nd and Amy Zoloto played bass.
...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-01-02 17:30
Missed the Piano Conc. but watched/listened to the Nutcracker. Don't know what to say about the changes....didn't notice. But, as usual, the cameraman didn't know where to point the camera much of the time. The orchestra looked like a melange of age and costumes which was interesting.
Bob Draznik
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Author: OmarHo
Date: 2011-01-02 17:30
Your observations are a little skewed...
Forteza played principal first half, Nuccio 2nd half.
Liang Wang played principal for the first half and was NOT the same English horn player.
There was a new bass player, the 2nd clarinetist did not move anywhere. And there's FYI, a 3rd flute/piccolo part, and she was not "doubling" the first flute part.
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Author: clarinettist1104
Date: 2011-01-02 18:06
Two items of note.
First: I have never seen Mr. Nuccio play on cocobolo (that doesn't mean that he doesn't.) But I know for a fact that Mr. Forteza plays on Backun barrels, and I think that they are in cocobolo.
Looking at my music, the second half of the Nutcracker (the part that they played) is written for both Bb and A clarinet, so he most likely switched without us noticing.
Second: the concertmaster was Mr. Dicterow, who played the second half. He (like many wind instrument principals) gave away the first half, to associate concertmaster, Ms. Staples.
One last thing, the principal trumpet and trombone (most likely even horn) did not play the first half. Associate principal trumpet, Mr. Muckey, and associate principal trombone, Ms. Davidson, played the first half, and Mr. Smith, principal trumpet, and Mr. Alessi, principal trombone, played the second half.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
-alex
Post Edited (2011-01-02 18:09)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-03 09:42
Thought it was a very good concert. Yes, Mark Nuccio played incredable. I wish he became first chair.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-03 15:05
In the orchestra I play with, principal players pull the same weight as all the rest and play whole concerts. What a bunch of "wusses" the NYP principals must be that it takes two of each to pull off a concert long enough to warrant an intermission. If Nuccio doesn't really have the "chops" for a two hour gig, hey Carl Scheibler.....give your old UW clarinet playing buddy a call. (btw, CS, that would be me, just in case you've forgotten)
Of course, I'm just writing this with "tongue in cheek", but really, I've often wondered why players at that level need to switch off. And in these economic times, it can't be cheap to have two principal players on the payroll for the same chair. Any words of wisdom, anyone--I've used up most of mine.........
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-03 15:18
Maybe so that one guy isn't stuck playing 2nd clarinet parts all the time? Been there, done that, been bored. It might be a real treat for the 2nd-chair guy to get to play solos and lead parts occasionally. Just guessing, I'm not a professional clarinetist nor do I play one on TV.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-01-03 17:50
The 2nd clarinet player *does* play 2nd all the time in the pro orchestras I know anything about that carry 4-player wind sections. The principal and the Associate 1st split the first parts. This kind of arrangement evolved during a period of relatively good times as the major orchestras ramped up their seasons to 52 weeks. They've become entrenched now in modern contracts, so that I doubt if it would be an easy thing for orchestra boards to cut those positions back to section status or eliminate them. I think the big American orchestras all contract 4-player wind sections.
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-03 17:53
So Karl, does that mean that in a full 4-player section the 2nd clarinetist plays every work of every concert (that has clarinet parts, of course) while the "Principal" and "Associate Principal" basically split the 1st clarinet book and only play about half the time each? Seems inefficient to me, and not a very good deal for the 2nd clarinet player.........
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-01-03 18:12
Well, that's what happens in Philadelphia. The 2nd player plays everything unless he's sick or has had to miss the week. The two first players either split each concert or may actually alternate entire concerts (that never happened until recently, but I've noticed it more often in the past 4 or 5 years). The associate 1st plays any E-flat parts that come up (requiring the principal to play the 1st part). The 4th player plays the bass parts and 4th clarinet if one is written for. He may play 2nd as an alternative to hiring a sub if the regular 2nd player is out for the concert.
Karl
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-03 18:45
A very important function of the Associate Principal is to step in, sometimes at the very last-minute, in the event of illness or injury. A world-class orchestra such as the NY Philharmonic is proud to showcase their Associate Principals, even on live TV broadcasts.
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Author: clarinettist1104
Date: 2011-01-03 19:46
Very correct kdk, (Karl Krelove,) and Steve Hartman!
Have some of you never attended a full-time symphony orchestra concert? Big-deal full time orchestras use this same "process." Let me give a few examples.
Concert order: Appalachian Spring, Ravel Piano Concerto in G, Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. (not likely, I know.)
Associate principal/ Eb clarinettist plays first on Appalachian Spring, and Eb on Ravel Piano Concerto. Principal plays principal on Ravel Piano Concerto and Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. Bass plays Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, and second plays the whole concert.
Another example:
Till Eulenspiegel
Mahler Symphony No. 1
Principal plays first on both pieces, associate principal plays Eb (or D if not transposing) on both pieces, and bass and second play all pieces as well.
This is standard protocol (mostly) among full-time orchestras with four clarinetists. I attend the Atlanta Symphony quite frequently, and they do the same thing. Different principal players have different ways of dividing up the parts, but four players are MOST DEFINITELY needed!
hope that helps,
-alex
Post Edited (2011-01-03 19:47)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-01-04 00:22
The Principal doesn't play the Concerti, that's for the Assistant to do.
Economics or not, it's tradition.
I figure it's because the soloist is the "main stage attraction" whereas the Symphonies feature the regular principal players.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-04 00:36
David:
That's true. However, there are many exceptions. Most principal cellists, for example, would play the Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto. Most principal oboists would play the Brahms Violin Concerto. I'm sure everyone can think of another example.
The principal oboist of the Philharmonic was playing in the Piano Concerto on New Year's Eve and the Associate played "The Nutcracker" along with the Principals of the other sections. Why? My guess is because Liang Wang and Lang Lang are good friends, having gone to school in China together, I think.
-Steve
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-04 01:20
Perhaps this is the sort of 'tradition' that adds to the financial crises most orchestras are facing? It sure seems to me that, for at least 95% of the repertoire, an orchestra could make do quite nicely with a total of three clarinetists (principal, 2nd/Eb, and bass/3rd/Eb). Good grief....
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-01-04 01:20
This is all very contractually dictated, too. There was a time in Philadelphia - I don't know if it's still in force - when only a certain number of the principals could be out for an individual piece. So *some* of the principal players played even during concertos. It seems to me from watching concerts that this is still the case, but I don't whether it's a contractual matter or the principals' choice. Then there are subtle differences in the titling of some positions. Philadelphia has mostly principals and associate principals, but the bassoon section has principal and co-principal and the two harpists are principal and co-principal. In the string sections there are principal, associate principal and assistant principal. I guess these distinctions have to do with salary or some perks, but the bottom line is that these positions have been for some time ingrained in the rosters and contracts of major American orchestras (I have no idea what happens in Europe or Asia) and no efficiency consultant is going to have an easy time in trying to eliminate them for the sake of economy.
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-04 01:35
There's nothing wrong with the Philharmonic. They're playing with greater expression than before, and the virtuosity and precision are continuously improving.
Pascual Martinez Forteza is a great player. He made it far enough in the auditions for one of the major European orchestras (Berlin?) to have a tryout series of concerts in the principal's chair. He plays a Buffet Tosca, this time with a Backun barrel and the reed tied on with string. Nobody competes with Ricardo Morales, but Mark Nuccio sounded great, and I thought he should have gotten the principal's chair. He says he found a great Chedeville mouthpiece, and it did look rather old. He's been playing a Kaspar ligature for a while now.
The principal flutist in the Tchaikovsky was using a flute with extensions for the left ring and little fingers, so it may have been Jeanne Baxtresser, the former principal.
The principal oboe in the Tchaikovsky was Sherry Sylar, the regular associate principal. She's a great player, who many people thought should have been promoted to principal when Joseph Robinson retired. I thought the English horn player was exceptional. There's no name listed on the roster http://nyphil.org/meet/orchestra/index.cfm?page=home.
Harriet Wingreen, the 85-year-old celesta player, still has it all. So does the concertmaster, Glenn Dicterow. It helps that he plays the orchestra's Guarneri. The conductor's mother, Yoko Takebe, was glowing throughout.
The second violins were on the right, exchanging places with the violas. Does anyone know whether this is permanent?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-04 01:49
Ken:
The first flutist on the first half of the all-Tchaikovsky program was Sandra Church, the orchestra's Associate Principal flutist since 1988.
Thomas Stacy, the orchestra's long-time solo English Horn, retired about two months ago. The acting English Hornist is Keisuke Ikuma, who has been a substitute and extra player for the Philharmonic for many years.
Sherry Sylar played "The Nutcracker" Second Act on the second half of the program. Liang Wang played the first half, including the concerto.
The violin placement is very common in Europe. If a guest conductor wants the 1st and 2nd violins together, my guess is that they'll sit that way.
-Steve
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2011-01-04 11:59
With reference to seating in the New York Philharmonic, here are two excerpts from a New York Times news article by Dan Wakin on Sept. 22, 2009, headlined: "New Face at Philharmonic Alters the Seating Chart"
"The most glaring difference of the Gilbert era has been stretched across the stage at every concert since and including the gala, which formally began his term as the orchestra's 25th music director. He has radically changed the seating formation, splitting the first and second violin sections; the seconds, who used to be behind the firsts on the left, are now in front on the right.
"The violas, who used to be there, are now inside the second violins. The cellos have shifted to the left, inside the first violins, and the double basses, formerly on the right, have moved behind them. The new arrangement is the same as the one Christoph von Dohnanyi adopted during his tenure as music director of the Cleveland Orchestra, where Mr. Gilbert was an assistant conductor in the mid-1990s.
"Mr. Gilbert likes the antiphonal quality between the violins that the seating produces, he said in an interview. He noted that much music was written with this arrangement in mind, especially before the 20th century. Placing high strings on the left and working down to the low ones on the right was a convention of early recording practice, he said.
"The new arrangement brings a freshness and will help the sense of ensemble by having the lowest notes of the chord next to the highest, he said, adding that he might change the seating for specific programs.
''I believe it focuses the sound of the orchestra,'' he said. ''People seem very happy with it, as far as I can tell.''
...AND, a short second excerpt:
"Orchestra seating plans vary according to the tastes of conductors, and they have varied at the Philharmonic. Under Kurt Masur, who was music director from 1991 to 2002, much of the orchestra sat on risers. Mr. Maazel ended that when he came in."
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-01-04 14:17
Manfred Honeck is using the same arrangement with the Pittsburgh Symphony.....First Violins on the left, Seconds on the Right.
Now he is going back to the use of Risers.
Changes come and go.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-04 14:24
For this concert, the seating, from left to right, was 1st violins, violas, cellos and 2nd violins, with the basses on the right in back. I can't remember seeing 1st violins, cellos, violas and 2nd violins. The winds and percussion were on risers.
Toscanini put the 2nd violins on the right. He said that the two violin sections were "the shoulders of the orchestra."
I like the setup, particularly in earlier music (Mozart, Haydn) where the melodic line is tossed back and forth between the 1st and 2nd violins. The same thing happens in the finale of the Tchaikovsky 6th, where the melodic note moves back and forth on every beat. If the 1st and 2nd violins are both on the left, you can't hear any of this.
Steve -
Thanks for the corrections. I assume Sandra Church got the offset keys idea from Jeanne Baxtresser.
Stacey retired in a huge rush, without notice and well into the season. I thought that his sound perhaps wasn't as gorgeous as it had been in earlier years, but he was still plenty good to play out the season and retire at the end. Does anyone know the reason?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-01-04 14:57
I felt somewhat sorry for the second-chair players on the first-chair parts in this concert because they had a conspicuously rough time with Lang Lang's extreme rubato and peculiar phrasing. I have no idea whether he's got scholarly reasons for the way he plays or whether he just wants to "put his own stamp on the music," but for whatever reason, his tempi swanned around all over the place, to the point where the orchestra and Gilbert sometimes had trouble guessing when to come in. Things got a bit raggedy from time to time.
And Lang Lang's a selfish soloist. That was especially obnoxious in the parts of the second movement where he was supposed to *accompany* the solo cello and the solo oboe. Instead, he played so loudly that he nearly drowned them out. I wonder whether the conductor had tried to address that problem in rehearsal.
(If I were the conductor, I don't think I'd like Lang Lang's habit of conducting from his piano bench, either. Lang Lang does this conducting in such a swoopy-doopy, useless fashion that it appears to be part of his self-conscious show of emoting, along with turning toward the audience and making ecstatic faces, leaning back and rolling his eyes heavenwards and all that other crap, rather than a serious attempt to usurp Gilbert, but still....)
In Lang Lang's favor, he's phenomenally accurate. To be sure, he left some notes squirming under the piano, especially in the last movement -- but I don't have a problem with that. I've never heard a live performance of Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto where the pianist played all the notes perfectly. Lang Lang played most of them, at an hellacious tempo. Kudos for that. But I'd like his playing much better if he made more of an effort to serve the composer's music and be a partner with the orchestra in the music, instead of a posturing show-off.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-04 15:34
Lelia:
It's frustrating to offer facts to this bulletin board and have them repeatedly ignored.
The woodwind section principals of the NY Philharmonic for the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1 on the New Year's Eve broadcast were:
Sandra Church, Associate Principal Flute
Liang Wang, Principal Oboe
Pascual Martinez-Forteza, Acting Associate Principal Clarinet (he is the permanent second but has been Acting Associate since Stanley Drucker's retirement in August, 2009)
Kim Laskowski, Associate Principal Bassoon
These are great, highly skilled and experienced musicians. If there was any deficiency in the ensemble between orchestra and soloist, it can be attributed to two main factors: sometimes it's difficult for the woodwinds to hear the soloist and sometimes the soloist's spontaneity takes him/her away from the orchestra momentarily.
No criticism of balance is valid in a broadcast performance. There are many microphones being used. Almost all choices of relative volume are made in the control truck.
-Steve
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-04 17:15
Tradition is often the problem rather than the intelligent option. Remaining buried in the past because "thats the way its always done" is a receipe for demise and eventual failure, rather than growth through innovative planning and practices.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-01-04 19:46
Seating changes come and go much like the spring fashion season in Paris. Every new stick waver thinks he/she has the ideal set up.
I did not hear the first part of the show.
While I enjoy Lang Lang's individual approach (as I did Glenn Gould - though very opposite), I can only imagine how he must have "turned it on" for the cameras.
I found the second half of the concert quite pedantic and boring. The interpretations of ballet scores by conductors who have never conducted in the pit have little to do with what actually takes place on stage.
Gilbert would have been better off trotting out a symphony or the String Serenade rather than the Nutcracker.
Sorry if I insulted any NYPO fans on this thread.
Post Edited (2011-01-04 19:55)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-05 00:57
Who plays what and when in an orchestra depends on the orchestra. Most large orchestra's today in the USA have some kind of rotated vacations or guarantied services off. Who plays the concerto and or overture also depends on the conductors requests. There is no one format that fits all orchestra's all the time. Sometimes our principal plays the entire program, sometimes he's off, sometimes he plays everything except the modern piece, unless it has Eb clarinet then he has to play principal because the assistant is the Eb player. Sometimes the principal plays the concerto sometimes he doesn't. As I said, there is no one formula that fits all. Here in Baltimore the music director has the final say in all seating assignments for the regular concerts, excluding pops, some specials and youth concerts. In those cases it's either the principal or the personal manager that makes the assignments based on rotation. It could be different in other orchestras. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-01-05 17:52
>>These are great, highly skilled and experienced musicians. If there was any deficiency in the ensemble between orchestra and soloist, it can be attributed to two main factors: sometimes it's difficult for the woodwinds to hear the soloist and sometimes the soloist's spontaneity takes him/her away from the orchestra momentarily.>>
Well, it shouldn't be a problem for the first cellist to hear the soloist, and the first cellist got drowned out the most even though it was obvious from his bowing and his tone that he was playing double forte. I stand corrected re. the identity of who played first chairs in the concerto; I got confused amidst the conflicting reports. Sorry.
However, I stand by everything I wrote about Lang Lang's behavior and the balance of the orchestra. If the orchestra has trouble hearing the soloist or if the microphone placement and volume need adjustment, then the time to address any resulting balance problems is during a sound check in the hall. I assume the New York Philharmonic is familiar with sound checks.
And part of the conductor's sometimes-unpleasant job is to address "the soloist's spontaneity." In rare cases I suppose ego-driven behavior might surface ka-boom, with no prior warning, just because the audience files in and the camera's red light goes on. However, that's rare, and I'd be surprised if the presence of the audience and the cameras gave Lang Lang a personality transplant that night. He's a seasoned pro, not a twelve-year-old prodigy who's spontaneously gaga with going on stage for the first time. He's an adult and he is who he is. That's who the conductor needs to deal with -- preferably discreetly, in private, during rehearsal breaks, but one way or another, before the concert.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-06 00:05
I didn't hear the first half of the concert so I can't address that as a listener but this I can say. So many recordings of concerto's highlight the soloist at the expense of the orchestra. Often you hear the soloist much louder than the orchestra even when a member of the orchestra is actually playing the "solo" roll. ESP
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-06 00:25
I have to respectfully disagree, Lelia:
I watched the performance again just now and didn't think that Lang Lang was excessively showy or self-centered in the performance. He was miked "hotly" but that's par for the course. I could hear the solo cello perfectly well on my speakers, though it was clear that the relative volume in the hall would have been more appropriate. He didn't look to me as though he was playing ff, just with soloistic intensity. There were a few spots in which the conductor and orchestra didn't catch the soloist perfectly but, again, it was a live performance. In a recording session those spots would have been corrected and spliced.
Pascual was using a woven-string ligature which has two tightening strings. I think it's made by Vandoren but I don't know for sure.
-Steve
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-06 14:58
"Pascual was using a woven-string ligature which has two tightening strings. I think it's made by Vandoren but I don't know for sure."
SO WHAT???? Nuccio was using a vintage Kaspar lig and, seemingly, stock Buffet equipement otherwise and he sounded just as good. At their level of performance, there is really little difference between players that would be noticed by the general public, but rather only by "super sensitive" and over analylitic clarinetists like us. It's really always less about the equipement than about the talent.......
BTW, I thought that the soloist's demeaur during the performance was entirely appropriate in providing visual emphasis to his pianistic nuance. A little "theatre" always helps to convey musical expression and is probably why most auditions are held behing curtains to conceal identities and other distracting motions. I can can almost hear Joe Friday (Dragnet) introducing the next auditioner with something like, "Just the music...and nothing but the music".
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2011-01-06 15:18
William:
Ken Shaw, in an earlier post, said that Pascual's reed was tied on with a string. In looking more closely, I recognized the type of string ligature that Pascual was using. A lot of the people who frequent this Bulletin Board are interested in knowing what sort of equipment top professionals use. I thought I'd just contribute a little information. Whether or not you or I could detect the slightest difference in sound between Pascual's woven-string ligature and Mark Nuccio's metal ligature makes no difference. That's what each is playing for his own reason.
-Steve
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-06 17:03
William you're right about that to a point. The equipment a person at that stage uses is mostly for their comfort and ear. There will always be a difference between players even if they used the same equipment so you can't really say he or she sounded better or worse because of what they use. They use what makes them play their best even if you can't hear a difference. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-06 17:24
I guess if we weren't all anal-compulsive-obsessive (or whatever the proper term is), we wouldn't be clarinetists, eh?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-06 21:22
David Blumberg wrote:
"Just keep in mind that first and foremost - they are entertainers"
I fundamentally disagree with this statement. Music is a lot more than "entertainment". But I guess that's a topic for another thread.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-07 17:59
I agree with DB--in any finale analysis, music must be classified as entertainment. I suppose one can confuse the issue by strictly defining what "entertainment" exactly means, but the bottom line still envolves the communication between the performer and listener--even if the listener & performer are one. You entertain thought and feeling via meaningful sounds (which may be pleasant or disscordant, doesn't matter) to illicit a response, either positive of negative. The result is *entertainment* of ones thoughts. Music is meant for yourself or for your listener and can be a pleasant or disturbing--but nonttheless, entertaining. It's as simple as that.
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Author: vin
Date: 2011-01-07 18:37
Is reading philosophy or looking at art entertainment?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-07 20:32
I'd like to have seen them swaying about a bit more. This was a holiday concert. ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-07 21:35
"Is reading philosophy or looking at art entertainment?"--absolutely, if you are really into it.
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-01-07 22:23
Ken Shaw said: " I'd like to have seen them swaying about a bit more. This was a holiday concert."
Perhaps they should have added a bit of "holiday cheer" to their holiday concert? ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Just Me
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-08 21:26
William- you wrote: "in any finale analysis, music must be classified as entertainment."
But in another recent thread about Andre Rieu, you wrote: "Is *this* what it will take to attract more people to live orchestral concerts--more emphasis on entertainment than on substance......??"
So I guess I don't need to explain to you what the "substance" is which makes good music something other than entertainment.
BTW, I'm still laughing about your excess air solution! :-)
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