 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-10-23 11:38
I've admired this performance for quite a while. Lovely playing!
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-23 14:51
I've not heard this before--thanks so much for posting. Absolutely beautiful music played by a master.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-10-24 19:53
Sacha wrote:
>> I've admired this performance for quite a while. Lovely playing!>>
Though I agree with this, it doesn't fully capture why I thought it 'worth considering'.
First, in a way it isn't a 'performance'.
Second, I think it's much more than 'lovely playing'.
This is a young Bruggen. I never knew him at that age, or when he played the recorder even, encountering him only when he came to conduct the Eroica with the OAE in the late 80s, and then -- what an honour -- playing the Mozart concerto with him conducting in *SALZBURG* IN 1791 -- sorry, 1991:-)
He has always had the same age/youth/universality that you can see in this clip. (And that's even when he drinks too much, nowadays.)
It's because he knows, deeply, how to BE with music, and therefore have us be with it.
I hope you can see it. Would that other performers could.
Tony
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-10-24 21:54
Well, while it may be more than lovely playing, but that doesn't make it any less lovely. I didn't really feel it was necessary to say much more, never mind explain why I enjoy this clip. It does speak for itself
Anyway, watching this clip originally was something that got me excited about baroque music.
I still think it's a performance. Music isn't really anything if it isn't performed, if it isn't experienced by other people. What you said "and therefore have us be with it" is exactly what makes it a wonderful performance. If he was just playing it for himself entirely, then it would be very difficult for the outside to experience it with him, let alone through a video camera and a youtube screen.
I also think it is more than just 'being' with this music here. There is an incredible amount of thought and care put into this rendition. His understanding of articulation here is amazingly precise, controlled, varied, and completely makes sense. His variations of color and his pacing of the piece as a whole sound to my ears very focused and thought out.
Maybe this is my difference of understanding of 'being' with the music, but I also find this playing more that what you describe it as. Anyway, I stand by that I think it is lovely playing, and that it is loving playing.
Sacha
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-10-24 22:41
Sacha wrote:
>> ...it is more than just 'being' with this music here. There is an incredible amount of thought and care put into this rendition. His understanding of articulation here is amazingly precise, controlled, varied, and completely makes sense. His variations of color and his pacing of the piece as a whole sound to my ears very focused and thought out.>>
Yes, of course; but he, miraculously, 'has it be' that way for the listener, rather than 'doing stuff' to the music. There's a world of difference.
And when you see/hear/appreciate that world of difference, then it -- or the lack of it -- starts to stick out for you. You stop wanting to hear those who have no idea of that larger miracle, but instead want to promote what they seem to think of as the 'miracle' of their own execution.
Of course, to get to say that is why I posted the link in the first place.
How do you do that? Well, it seems that it's one of those things that you can't get to by 'trying' -- that's just more manipulation. You rather have to BE open to it:-)
By the way, though I would have said all that anyway, there's a very interesting book just out that characterises this difference in a very specific way. It's "The Master and his Emissary" by Iain McGilchrist, and it talks about the differences between the functions of the two hemispheres of the brain -- which subject I would never have thought would ever be useful. (Because, we read about this sort of stuff in the early 80s, and rightly rejected it.) However, newer techniques have made it much more pertinent -- indeed, I would say, inspiring.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-10-25 21:37
Sacha said:
>> I still think it's a performance. Music isn't really anything if it isn't performed, if it isn't experienced by other people.>>
So, I'd say the essence of the matter is to be able to distinguish a performance from 'a performance'.
I can tell the difference.
The question I'm asking everyone is: can you?
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-10-25 23:04
To be frank here I really can't tell the difference. In fact I don't hear the greatness in this performance or 'performance'. I do hear a natural flow in the music. Perhaps someone could give me some elements of this performance that they consider great. thanks
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-10-26 10:35
There is a difference between those musicians who do things *to* the music and those who do things *with* the music--allowing the music, on a fundamental level, to animate one's decisions, and to infuse the performer with content, rather than the performer forcing their emotional state, technique, or what have you, upon the music. It is not always achieved from the outset, as it is in these examples (when I was searching for examples last night, I found several that would have required my saying---"Look! It happens at 2:34!!")
When it is achieved, though, it is always special, and important. It is what I strive for every time I pick up my horn. I sometimes call it musical honesty, but one could call it many other things.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-10-26 18:20
I think 'doing things to' and 'doing things with' are very subjective. For one person listening, 'doing things to' might be pushing the envelope in a good way whereas 'doing things with' might be just safe and confortable.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-10-26 18:45
I'm not talking about either 'pushing the envelope' or 'playing it safe', though my terms might very much sound that way initially. I've felt the quality I was describing in performances that could be described as either.
Instead, I was responding, I hope in kind, to the quality Tony descibed as "being with the music". I think I 'get' what he's talking about, and recognize it as the most important aspect of music making (at least for me: everyone else may have their own). If you can hear it in the performances I linked, maybe you get what I'm talking about. If not, no worries--though I wasn't talking about the age old argument of 'liberal' vs 'conservative' performance practices.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2010-10-26 19:24
Tony,
I am not sure I can easily describe my perception of what is going on here, and I hope that you have some insight you are willing to share with us.
When watching or listening to the video, it appears that music is pouring out of him and that he is merely a vehicle for what Telemann wrote. In a way, I would go as far as saying that what Telemann wrote is only a vehicle for some deeper shared human experience embodied in music that Bruggen manages to convey to us with *his interpretation of the music of Telemann*.
Now, unfortunately, I am not sure I can always tell the difference between this and a well polished and respectful reading of a piece which lacks the sort of depth I feel listening to Bruggen. I am curious to know what helps you hear the difference.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-10-26 23:09
Arnoldstang-
Certainly liking a particular performance is subjective. What I believe is not subjective to any advanced musician, however, is that one can hear in his phrasing, tone coloring, articulation, intonation, etc. that he has TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT the harmonic structure, the melodic structure, the rhythmic structure and the implied emotions in his interpretation. Whether or not you like his idea of the context of each note, each phrase, or the whole piece is one thing, but this is worth considering because 1. everything he plays has a context that takes all the above things into account and 2. he does it in a way that seems very free, like a storyteller, as opposed to someone reading a speech.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-10-27 01:27
Hi Vin, To my way of thinking I would expect all high level professional performers would take these elements into consideration. Is it really that uncommon?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-10-27 02:06
I think the degree to which he does it is uncommon.
Meaning, the degree to which he phrases (changes the shape and the color of certain notes while still maintaining the overall architecture and flow of the piece and it's particular style) is uncommon, as is the freedom (the storytelling aspect I mentioned above) with which he does it.
Post Edited (2010-10-27 02:13)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-10-27 18:07
David Blumburg wrote,
>>Can you support at all with the legs crossed like that??? I remember reading a while back that a Horn player could get a hernia playing with the legs crossed above the knee like that.
Myth?
>>
I don't know whether that's a myth about horn players, but playing with the legs crossed above the knees shouldn't cause a problem on recorder except for someone with a circulatory disorder or someone so heavy that crossing the legs cuts off the blood circulation -- and Mr. Bruggen isn't nearly that heavy. There's not a lot of volume control possible on recorders. They only require the amount of air you'd use for speaking in normal tones of voice, from a stage whisper up to a slightly raised voice (unless you *want* to represent the uncontrolled shriek of a terrified piglet...). Look at how relaxed his face remains: He's neither blowing hard the way a trumpet player does nor tensing up the way an oboist does.
His posture is an interesting aspect of his involvement in the music, though, because of the radical difference between his fluid movement from the waist up and his stillness, even rigidity, from the waist down. One way he's "being" the music is in the sense of using flexibility in his upper body not only to facilitate pitch and volume control but to express the phrasing. He moves in a natural-looking way. He's not distractingly swooping and dipping and gyrating around in his seat. I wonder if he uses those locked legs to limit how far he allows himself to move?
Unfortunately, I was only able to hear the first 3:31 of the clip, and that with two long interruptions while my computer did whatever it does that makes dots go round and round in a circle while nothing else happens. At 3:31, the dots refused to quit circling and I gave up on waiting after about four minutes of silence. (Probably should've waited 4:33, eh?)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-10-27 19:50
"Can you support at all with the legs crossed like that??? I remember reading a while back that a Horn player could get a hernia playing with the legs crossed above the knee like that.
Myth?"
When I play Eb clarinet, I cross my legs at the knee. I dont find it to be any different than playing with the knees straight.
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Author: diz
Date: 2010-10-27 20:24
Tony, why did you feel it necessary to point out that Bruggen has a drinking problem?
I've many "problems" myself, but I'd be horrified if a colleague mentioned them in a public forum ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2010-10-27 23:56)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-10-27 20:42
I have a question regarding his time. What is he doing at the beginning.? .... the slow intro and then the faster section. When I just try to beat time along with his playing it is a bit of a challenge. I'm not being critical here just observing. It comes across as free and rhapsodic in nature.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: emily_heathcote
Date: 2010-10-27 23:37
I would like to know who here considers themselves to be a performer? I find this a very intriguing and reflective question of oneself...
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-10-28 03:43
''I would like to know who here considers themselves to be a performer?''
Your definition of ''performer'' please Emily?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-28 08:32
> it appears that music is pouring out of him and that he is merely a vehicle for what Telemann wrote.
> You stop wanting to hear those who have no idea of that larger miracle, but instead want to promote what they seem to think of as the 'miracle' of their own execution.
I like this. It's something that's been dawning on me for a while now: the music is always bigger than the player.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-10-28 16:58
In response to Arnoldstang, I put forth a different performance with a much steadier time feel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRLrqIjy9qA&feature=related It is very common for people playing unaccompanied works to play too freely. I'm just wanted to address Bruggen's time in this video. Is it stylistically OK.?
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2010-10-28 16:59)
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-10-29 05:31
''(And that's even when he drinks too much, nowadays.)''
''Tony, why did you feel it necessary to point out that Bruggen has a drinking problem? ''
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's Tony Pays' opinion that Bruggen has a drinking problem. There may be no evidence for this and even if there were, it's hardly a topic for this forum I suspect.
Oh, by the way, I know a bloke who can consume four large bottles of Guinness and another who can put away two bottles of his favourite red and still be standing up and making sensible conversation. I don't consider either to have a problem.
As for me, two or three small beers and I'm out of it. I guess that makes me the one with the drinking problem??!!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-10-29 05:42
I've got a drinking problem...
I've got two hands but only one mouth!
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-10-29 07:37
The best thing about viewing this clip is that it caused me to follow the youtube trail and listen to another audio clip of Telemann recorder music played by Stefan Temmingh, and which, for me, was considerably more enlightening.
If the art of interpreting music is to appear to get to the core of it without anyone being able to tell how that is being achieved, then Temmingh, not Bruggen, is the one to listen to. With Bruggen, it seemed fairly easy to describe to oneself what he was doing to achieve his effect (though I know Tony might say that that was just my mis-perception). I can imagine a good technical recorder player being given a couple of lessons on the phrasing and pacing of it, and such things as when to turn on the vibrato, and they will then come out with a performance a bit like Bruggen's.
It's nice for the listener to be able to say that he can understand what is going on and then imagine that it is musically more enlightening to do so. I prefer a bit more mystery, or perhaps more subtlety. This doesn't mean the performance has to be lacking in energy or inflection. Temmingh gives me that.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-10-29 14:36
Graham wrote:
>> If the art of interpreting music is to appear to get to the core of it without anyone being able to tell how that is being achieved, then Temmingh, not Bruggen, is the one to listen to...It's nice for the listener to be able to say that he can understand what is going on and then imagine that it is musically more enlightening to do so. I prefer a bit more mystery, or perhaps more subtlety.>>
That sounds good to me; I used to enjoy quoting CDF Schubart's remark about the harpsichord playing of CPE Bach: "One is aware of witchcraft without noticing a single magical gesture."
Of course that doesn't mean that there should be no magical gestures; it just means that some music is spoiled by too great a reliance on them, and some other music simply doesn't need them at all, and is diminished by any appearance of them. A 'gesture' necessarily implies a gesturer, you see.
In that regard, it's interesting to notice WHERE Bruggen gestures, and the effect of those gestures on the rest of it.
I'll listen to Temmingh -- a quick look seemed to indicate that he doesn't play the same Fantasia no. 3, right? -- and of course I'll be very happy to agree with you about his excellence, if I find I do.
I'm unlikely to agree with you in dissing Bruggen, though. I have to say that considerable, and sometimes heart-rending personal experience with "good technical clarinet players," and the business of trying to give them "a couple of lessons on the phrasing and pacing of it" ALWAYS leaves them falling considerably short of (indeed, nowhere in the league of) an artist like Bruggen:-)
By the way, ned wrote ([]s mine):
>> It's [only] Tony Pay's opinion that Bruggen has a drinking problem.>>
...wanting, I imagine, to characterise my remark as what it was: namely an arguably ill-considered throwaway line.
What I in fact said was, capitals again mine:
HE HAS ALWAYS HAD THE SAME AGE/YOUTH/UNIVERSALITY THAT YOU CAN SEE IN THIS CLIP. (And that's even when he drinks too much, nowadays.)
Someone who sometimes (hence the 'when') drinks too much nowadays -- and that includes me, by the way -- doesn't necessarily 'have a drinking problem'. That's a generalisation that is often used, like other generalisations, to beat up on people; and what I did was very far from that. As is fairly clear from what I've written, Bruggen is something of a hero of mine.
On the other hand, what diz wrote DOES make the generalisation ("Bruggen has a drinking problem"), which is arguably far more damaging to Bruggen. He goes on to say:
>> I've many "problems" myself, but I'd be horrified if a colleague mentioned them in a public forum ...>>
Well, allow me to horrify you: one of your problems is that you -- again arguably, like me -- have a big mouth:-)
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-10-29 22:03
Graham -
In his Singin' in the Rain scene, Gene Kelly does things that are almost impossible. You think "That's almost impossible. I could never even come close."
Fred Astaire did things that *are* impossible, and you think "I could do that."
When I watch Stefan Temmingh's YouTube clips --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJBcV8ZlHY&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=vgEK2kxR4VY for example -- I'm very aware of how difficult the music is, and how flawlessly he brought it off.
The Telemann that Bruggen plays is much more difficult than Temmingh's Veracini, technically as well as musically, but sound like the simplest thing in the world.
Frankly, they're not in the same league. Temmingh plays far too fast, runs phrases together and misses almost every opportunity to make *music* instead of swoop around and show off. Worse, each section sounds like the last one. A gigue must have a bouncy swing, and the B section changes character and must relax. He misses it completely in the frantic rush.
With Bruggen, every phrase is musical and moves perfectly to the next phrase, and each movement has its own dance character.
It's my ideal -- the art that conceals art. Thanks to Tony for finding it for us.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2010-10-30 01:25)
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-10-30 04:26
It appears that Temmingh, almost certainly, is using his body as a metronome. I guess that this movement can be interpreted as expression, but given the fact that classical players are encouraged (from the readings of more than a few BB correspondents) not to tap the foot, I'd say the former is probably accurate.
I'd say that Bruggen is employing a similar time keeping technique.
You'd have to ask them really, to know the facts.
I must say though, that I liked both performances (whatever your definition of that word is) immensely.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2010-10-31 16:41
His playing is marvelous...but the stage setting is quite weird; the lonely raised podium, the spot light. the strangely crossed legs, the black darkness all about.
I have a hunch after the performance he's going home and have lunch with the rest of the Munster Family!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-11-01 02:40
I'm sticking with my initial impression regarding Bruggen's time. Listen to Rampal play the same piece. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMHfw6ceIyg&feature=channel The difference is considerable. I put forth the question yet again.....is Bruggen's approach acceptable or is he in fact ruining the rhythm of this work?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-11-01 08:33
Hi Ken
I agree that that particular clip was disappointing. The sound recording and balance were unhelpful, and seeing a video of him "doing it" was also unhelpful. Nothing like as good as the pure audio clip I happen to have listened to.
Why these people ruin their performances with movement like that is beyond me. Was it Lazarus who said to avoid it? Well, I wish they would....
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-11-02 01:48
''Why these people ruin their performances with movement like that is beyond me.''
Er wot.........eh........??
Ruin the performance? Not likely. What's that got to do with anything? As I mentioned, in my previous post, foot tapping appears to be discouraged and now I learn that any movement (like that) is verboten! Like what? What do you consider appropriate? Is there a manual somewhere perhaps, which stipulates the allowable bodily movement?
What do you say then about Sabine Meyer? How about the jazz players?
If movement is so distracting then you'd better just close your eyes.
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''but the stage setting is quite weird; the lonely raised podium, the spot light. the strangely crossed legs, the black darkness all about.''
Strange, weird, lonely, spotlight, black darkness? This is a strange and weird response in itself.
It's called a mood setting scenario. I must say I found the setting to be quite appropriate and added to my enjoyment of the piece.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-11-02 11:17
Playing cross-legged like that is actually a normal playing position for some instruments. It's customary for classical guitarists to cross their legs if they don't use a step-stool or a strap. (I use a strap, myself, as does Willie Nelson, who--despite being a country/western musician--also plays on a classical guitar with a classical-style under-the-guitar strap [if you want to see what one looks like]) So his sitting posture does not look all that strange to me.
Also, if you've ever tried playing a recorder, you know that the trick to sounding decent (or one of them at least) is not to over-do it with the air. You don't want a whole lot of air or air pressure when you play recorder, because it ruins the tone and throws the tuning completely out of whack. Too much air and you go sharp; too little air and you go flat. This little technical impediment seriously limits the dynamic range of the instrument and makes it quite difficult to phrase effectively. If you listen very, very carefully to professional recorder players, you'll notice that even a master player cannot avoid going slightly flat at the ends of phrases. The hallmark of a recorder master is that he/she can do it gracefully enough that you don't notice.
The one movement Bruggen makes that looked strange to me (as a clarinetist who only occasionally picks up a recorder) was the way he rocks the instrument back and forth in his hands. Of course, you'd never do that on clarinet except to test reeds (as it would interfere with the embouchure), but since the "embouchure"on a recorder is built-in to the instrument, there's obviously no harm in doing that on a recorder. I wonder if that serves some kind of technical purpose or if it's simply part of Bruggen's way of connecting with the music in a physical sort of way. I know from my own experience that at those times when I felt truly connected to what I was playing I have often made any number of odd movements more or less involuntarily, so maybe that's what it is. I can't say that I've *seen* a lot of professional recorder playing as opposed to pure audio recordings.
What I love about this performance by Bruggen is that in his hands the music has a natural flow to it. Where there is ornamentation, for instance, it doesn't sound like something added on top of the music to decorate it, but rather, it sounds like it flows out of the musical context as a natural consequence of the melodic line.
I listened to some of Timmagh's YouTube performances, too. Timmagh's a good player, to be sure, but his performances seem a little "choppy" at times, with more abrupt stops and starts. It's as if he's trying to control the flow of the music, rather than "going with the flow" and letting the music control him, as Bruggen does.
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