 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 06:35
In my instrument toolkit I have a small adjustable wrench, around 4 inches long. It adjusts to a maximum aperture of, I suppose, 3/4 of an inch. (It's actually the second one I've owned; the first one was confiscated by an overzealous airline security man in the US a few years ago, as 'a dangerous tool'. I told him he could keep it and give it to his 3 year old son to play with, which didn't go down all that well:-)
Anyway, playing about with this, I had the thought that it's a quite useful way of thinking about embouchure.
I've posted a response to Tom Ridenour's videos here:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=284366&t=284177
...with a followup about Michelle Gingras:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=311859&t=311609
...and this post complements what I said there.
The idea is that when you 'set' your jaw aperture, you can think of it as being like setting the aperture of the wrench.
When you 'snug' the instrument in, your teeth remain 'set' just like the wrench. The musculature of your lower lip, which is what modulates the behaviour of the reed, can do its work freely. (With a slightly bigger wrench, and perhaps some flexible stuff to represent the lips, you could even demonstrate with a real clarinet reed/mouthpiece.)
Notice that the wrench resists being EITHER opened OR closed -- unlike a pair of pliers. That sort of behaviour may be useful to think of when forming the basis of an embouchure.
Of course (as has been pointed out in another thread) in any embouchure there ARE forces being exerted by jaw muscles on the lips, via the teeth -- just as there are forces being exerted by the various bits of the wrench on anything that tries to open it, or close it.
But if you THINK of those human forces as 'wrench-like' rather than 'plier-like', you may do better.
>> Gotta catch a plane to Madrid....:-)
...now in Madrid, with no concert till tomorrow...:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2010-04-10 21:07)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-04-10 11:35
So.....Tony.....you carried the wrench just in case the Harpist needed to adjust some nuts.....!.......or you couldn't adjust your ligature tight enough by hand....?
....or for Master Class demos.....
Ah, "Night Flight For Madrid"....nice piece
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 11:39
>>When you 'snug' the instrument in, your embouchure remains 'set' just like the wrench. (With a slightly bigger wrench, you could even demonstrate with a real clarinet reed/mouthpiece.)
>>
I like it. And the temptation to make the relevant junk-art sculpture (using a hunk-o-junk mouthpiece that never would be missed) may turn out to be impossible to resist.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-04-10 12:07
A wrench? How exactly do you assemble your clarinet? 
I tried this method now it didn't work for me. Great if it works for someone else. Adjusting the jaw & lips before putting the mouthpiece in my mouth prevented me from the small adjustments I need to do to get the embochure I want.
Or maybe you meant really exactly like a wrench, which is usually a little loose. Once you get it to the correct opening it is still slightly adjustable and loose in the same way that very small changes happen in the embochure.
I guess I would say I use an embochure is a combination of patent pliers (http://www.apollotools.co.il/ProdImages/08521812200715341166M.jpg) and an adjustable wrench. Like the pliers, the jaw and lips form around the shape and size of whatever it is they are forming over. After it is formed, then like the wrench there is room for slight adjustments (though for a wrench this is more of a side effect and not necessary).
Or maybe I didn't try your wrench method exactly like you meant.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 14:34
Nitai wrote:
>> ...maybe I didn't try your wrench method exactly like you meant.>>
I updated my post, which was written in a hurry on the bus to the airport. Does it now make more sense to you?
Tony
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-04-10 15:42
>> I updated my post, which was written in a hurry on the bus to the airport. Does it now make more sense to you? <<
No... it is now obvious it was already clear before
So I like this image and I think it's a good idea to think about it this way, the embochure as "wrench-like". At least to think about the embochure in this way once it is around the mouthpiece.
But your main point was about forming the embochure i.e. how to get it on the mouthpiece. I now realize I forgot one detail in my previous post.
There are two ways to set a wrench. You can eye it, maybe try it occasionally, but basically adjust it seperately from what you are gripping. Another way is to set it while it is on the piece you're gripping.
At first I thought I use the latter method, since the former can have the possibility of having the wrong opening of the wrench, then taking it back to adjust and trying again. But then I tried to do exactly what I usually do unconciously, but notice what I was doing (not so easy).
I realized I was actually using a combination. I form the basic embochure more like plaiers i.e. while inserting the mouthpiece to my mouth. If I set the embochure opening before the mouthpiece is in my mouth, or if it's only slightly in, I get an uncomfortable emobochure.
Then the "pliers" imediately change to a "wrench" to form the final embochure to allow small adjustments. But then I noticed I also push the mouthpiece slightly in for the final position, maybe similar to how you described in the other thread (response to the video). But for me it's only a very tiny amount. I've never noticed I do this.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 16:19
Lelia wrote:
>>...the temptation to make the relevant junk-art sculpture (using a hunk-o-junk mouthpiece that never would be missed) may turn out to be impossible to resist.>>
Photos please, Lelia:-)
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 18:42
Nitai wrote:
>> I realized I was actually using a combination. I form the basic embochure more like pliers i.e. while inserting the mouthpiece to my mouth. If I set the embochure opening before the mouthpiece is in my mouth, or if it's only slightly in, I get an uncomfortable emobochure.
>> Then the "pliers" imediately change to a "wrench" to form the final embochure to allow small adjustments.>>
Yes, very well put. And interestingly, that 'change to a wrench' is produced by the use of opposing jaw-muscles. (It's analogous to locking your arm with your elbow at a given angle by the use of the opposing biceps and triceps.)
I think what's good about this pliers/wrench distinction is that it captures the situation intuitively without telling lies about the forces, which of course are THERE, even if physics-challenged people can't see that they are. Plus, it gives one confidence to resist what I "get emotional about", as someone put it: namely, this continuing recommendation of double lip agony for someone-who-quite-possibly-physically-can't-do-it (YES, THAT'S ME I'M TALKING ABOUT -- plus quite a few others) whilst still keeping what is good about the technique.
By the way, another effect of double lip is of course to open the jaws slightly more for a given amount of mouthpiece insertion. And you can mimic that, single lip, by using a thicker mouthpiece patch. It's actually quite a significant effect.
Tony
Post Edited (2010-04-10 20:59)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-04-10 19:03
Years ago, Mitchell Lurie said to me in effect "See that hole in the wall? Your jaws and mouth can be set like that, fixed".
He also said that the mouth is set like a workbench vise, quite like what Mr. Pay mentions above.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-04-10 19:22
Wes, which student got mad and made the hole in the wall?
;)
Great analogy Tony!
With a wrench the teeth of the wrench can adjust slightly to contour to the item being held (deoending on the wrench). Same for the lips to make a slight adjustment when needed.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 23:27
I used to carry a wrench and a Swiss Army knife with Phillips screwdriver in my case on tour. Seems like I always got the Manhassett music stand with loose screws; always left 'em better than I found 'em! Of course my bass clarinet was shipped with the orchestra baggage -- no worries about airport security.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-04-11 13:13
I like this analogy, I have a student with just this problem. He moves is jaw a lot, more and more as the lesson progresses and he gets tired.
I will try to use this example and see if it sticks.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-12 20:14
Skygardener wrote:
>> I like this analogy, I have a student with just this problem. He moves is jaw a lot, more and more as the lesson progresses and he gets tired.
I will try to use this example and see if it sticks.>>
Just so long as you don't say something like, "Tony Pay says you should keep your jaw locked like a wrench."
Did y'all see that I DIDN'T say that???
Tony
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-04-12 21:05
I totally agree with Tony's analogy. The wrench idea is a good one. I once saw a jeweler measure a persons ring. He slid it down a taper gauge and that, to me, explained the connection of the clarinet moving into a fixed size orifice. No mater what size the orifice a certain upward pressure will produce a result.
I once said there was a spot on the reed that was the place you needed to have the bottom lip that would allow for maximum reed vibration. Tony added that he thought of it as more of a "zone" which after figuring out that my that point was moving depending depending on the sound that I desired. The point that Tony's analogy makes is: It's a much faster, controllable way of finding and addressing different spots in "the zone"
So I'm thinking you have three really useful that are "highly adaptable controllers"
1. Size of the Orifice ( mouth opening)
2. variable upward energy into the mouth with the "fixed" chosen opening
3. the air energy used
Chance any one of these and the sound an response of the clarinet changes, change one and you can get a similar sound if you change the others. or change the sound all together.
A friend of mine was remarking that he was amazed that I use the same equipment on any gig I play, klezmer, classical show stuff and how he couldn't understand how that was possible, I've come to realize that I use the same mouthpiece and reed, but all three of my "adaptable controllers" are set differently.
The one think I can't figure out in Tony's analogy is: Why would you carry an adjustable wrench in your clarinet case to begin with? That strikes me as useful as a metric socket set.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-04-12 21:30
>Just so long as you don't say something like, "Tony Pay says you should keep your jaw locked like a wrench."
In that case, I will try to claim it as my original idea! 
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-04-16 18:22
Did anyone answer Tony's question? "Did y'all see that I DIDN'T say that"...It seems Skygardner didn't see.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2012-04-16 18:24)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-04-16 20:52
There are many ways to do things. 30 ton is pretty impressive but I'm wondering how much air pressure you use? It's the combo that's important.
Freelance woodwind performer
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