 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: maxnorman
Date: 2009-09-30 02:23
I'm an intermediate clarinet player, after having studied for four years; I'm in high school, play in advanced chamber music, the local youth orchestra, etc. Articulation was never my forte, and during the past six months I've been fighting a serious biting problem. When articulating, my jaw (lesser now than previously) moves, and my lips flex, often eliciting a chirp. This is quite unpleasant and prohibitive as a solo player.
The trouble is, whatever I seem to do, I cannot solve this problem. At the advice of my teacher, I do quite a bit of double lip playing and slow articulation exercises--all in front of a mirror, of course. The movement has become involuntary, embedded in my playing. Furthermore, my head drifts downward when I must articulate quickly, holding at 45-degree angle.
These problems are due to fundamental flaws in my technique, I'm sure, but I feel that, once I trump them, my playing will improve dramatically. Does anyone have any relevant advice or experience with this sort of problem?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-30 02:44
Watch this video.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4RaNDuNyOI&feature=related
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-30 03:24
"often eliciting a chirp."
This is probably your mouthpiece if it happens a lot.
"Furthermore, my head drifts downward when I must articulate quickly, holding at 45-degree angle."
This is a common "natural" way to fix discomfort when one's reeds are too hard. Use a softer reed or a mouthpiece with a narrower tip opening and use more air.
When I describe the embrochure to students I usually say that you need the same amount of force that you would use on a drinking straw. The lips only need to be strong enough to keep the air from escaping out the corners of one's mouth, all the rest should be in the air.
That is IMO, of course...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-30 11:59
The "drifting downward" sounds like you are actually making the fulcrom worse. If you hold your head up and keep the clarinet in closer to your body, the force of the embouchure will be greater with less effort.
Also, articulation IS NOT hitting the reed with your tongue. Articulation is REMOVING the tongue FROM the reed......there is NO pushing against the reed at all.
Hope this helps.
......................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-09-30 13:36
The others have given you good advice. Playing double lip can be helpful for someone in your situation.
I also really agree with skygardener's advice:
"This is a common "natural" way to fix discomfort when one's reeds are too hard. Use a softer reed or a mouthpiece with a narrower tip opening and use more air." I've heard it said that a slightly softer reed works better for double lip, and I think there's some truth to this.
Here's another idea, and it comes from Roger McKinney of the College of New Jersey. Unlike most other teachers, he suggests tonguing with the "n" or "nu" syllable. I've tried it, and I think it's a very interesting idea. Here's a link: http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-30 15:55
As far as removing the tongue from the reed it should be noted that the tongue obviously has to come forward sometime or there would never be a second removal of the tongue. Do people think that there is a double stroke going on here? ie every tongued note has two parts 1. forward motion 2. attack It's sort of like a conductors baton technique. It is possible to hammer the ictus or just lift off that point. Both have their place but the "hammer" is not the norm. I'm still liking the way Michel Gingras approaches this with a rebound action.....like a drumstick would repeat itself without any aid. The alternative is a laboured tonguing...too much work.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-10-01 18:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-09-30 16:08
Paul A. writes;
"Also, articulation IS NOT hitting the reed with your tongue. Articulation is REMOVING the tongue FROM the reed......there is NO pushing against the reed at all."
But then how did the tongue get there in the first place?
Just kidding...I think.
Clarinet Redux
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: maxnorman
Date: 2009-10-01 02:46
Arnoldstand wrote:
"Watch this video.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4RaNDuNyOI&feature=related"
After including these exercises in just one of my practice sessions, I've already seen progress. I think that, once I go further with this exercise, it will have a marked effect on my playing.
clarinetguy wrote:
"Here's another idea, and it comes from Roger McKinney of the College of New Jersey. Unlike most other teachers, he suggests tonguing with the "n" or "nu" syllable. I've tried it, and I think it's a very interesting idea. Here's a link: http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm"
My teacher is also a proponent of this technique, and therefore I've come to use it often, though not when practicing staccato tounging. When playing legato, or staccato at a soft volume, I often begin a series of notes with 'nu,' then separate by bringing my reed to the tongue. Thus, I'm effectively saying 'nut-ut-ut-ut.' Anthony Pay described this style (though with the syllable 'mu') in one of his writings.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-10-01 04:23
I like the "nu" idea. Helps to engrain that that it's not the tongue STRIKING the reed that makes the sound, it's the tongue RELEASING the reed and allowing it to vibrate that makes the sound.
Alexi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-10-01 08:49
Max wrote:
>> When playing legato, or staccato at a soft volume, I often begin a series of notes with 'nu,' then separate by bringing my reed to the tongue. Thus, I'm effectively saying 'nut-ut-ut-ut.' Anthony Pay described this style (though with the syllable 'mu') in one of his writings.>>
...and Alexi wrote:
>> I like the "nu" idea. Helps to engrain that that it's not the tongue STRIKING the reed that makes the sound, it's the tongue RELEASING the reed and allowing it to vibrate that makes the sound.>>
I haven't had time to read the McKinney article properly; but I think it's a good idea to talk about all this in more detail, and I will try to do this later today. There are two ideas involved:
(1) Max, Alexi's and my own point, that we may profitably think of tonguing as (I'll use the version I do in my article):
ud-ud-ud-ud
....rather than:
du-du-du-du
The only reason I put 'm' in front of the first one (you obviously can't SAY 'm' with the clarinet in your mouth) was to make the idea of INTERRUPTION memorable. (You continually interrupt 'mud' rather than continually starting 'dud'.)
(2) McKinney's idea that the consonant 'n' helps with tongue POSITION.
This needs to be gone into further, because 'n''s high tongue position occurs largely because air goes through the nose when you say it, so the tongue isn't pushed down by the air pressure in the mouth (as it is when you say 'd' or 't'.)
It's rather the VOWEL in the repeated sequence that is more crucial.
On the whole I avoid myself saying anything PRESCRIPTIVE about the vowel (as it might be, 'mid-id-id', 'med-ed-ed', 'mad-ad-ad', 'mud-ud-ud') because you don't want to be thinking any ONE THING when you play staccato. I take the view that the tongue is best 'left to work out what to do' to produce THE RESULT WE WANT TO HEAR.
More later,
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2009-10-01 16:07
I've been fighting with the similar problems, esp the biting and head-tilt-down issues.
For biting, I feel that I used to bite especially more for the higher notes. I read Ridenour's book (educator's guide for the clarinet) and it helped me a lot. Basically you want to keep the jaw positions (both upper and lower) at a constant spot, try not to ever move them. If you really want to exert a force, then think of constantly want to "open" your jaws, but that force is stopped by your lip muscles, so your jaws still stay constant. If you need more pressure on the reed for the higher notes, then snug the clarinet in with your right arm/right thumb, so that the the reed is pressed harder by the friction on the lip due to that upward force, not by the biting force.
For the head-tilt-issue, mine was due to the fact that I used to play a lot of sax, so that the spot of my tongue that touches the reed is off the tip of my tongue. Thus I always want to raise my clarinet in a higher angle, so that the mouthpiece is a little more flat in my mouth (does this make sense? if the bottom of clarinet goes higher, then the mouthpiece obviously will go lower in the mouth), but since that doesn't look good, I can do the equivalent of lowering my head (which doesn't look good either and my teacher gets pissed when he sees that ^-^). Anyways, the way I solved that was just raise my tongue higher, especially the middle part, and then use the tip of the tongue (maybe even a little toward the underside of it - not the underside of the tongue, just the slightly underside of the tip of the tongue) to touch the tip of the reed. This way when your head is in normal position and your clarinet is about 35 degrees from the body, the angles work out.
I feel the tilt-head issue here is related to your jaw movement. Because if you tilt your head, then the mouthpiece is lower in your mouth, so the tip of your tongue is too close to your lower lip, especially if you bite. And sometimes the tongue may even touch the lower lip and it will definitely affect your lower lip motion.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: maxnorman
Date: 2009-10-01 18:00
Tony Pay said:
"It's rather the VOWEL in the repeated sequence that is more crucial.
On the whole I avoid myself saying anything PRESCRIPTIVE about the vowel (as it might be, 'mid-id-id', 'med-ed-ed', 'mad-ad-ad', 'mud-ud-ud') because you don't want to be thinking any ONE THING when you play staccato. I take the view that the tongue is best 'left to work out what to do' to produce THE RESULT WE WANT TO HEAR."
This makes sense, for sometimes over-analysis can hinder rather than facilitate.
What is your opinion on long-tones? As I mentioned in my original post, I play them with a double-lip embouchure, to strengthen my lips, but I am not conscious of the posture of my tongue. Should I attempt to regulate it, as Tian mentioned, while I play long-tones and scales?
Regardless, it is an honor to receive your advice, Mr. Pay. Your playing has always been exemplary.
TianL said:
"Anyways, the way I solved that was just raise my tongue higher, especially the middle part, and then use the tip of the tongue (maybe even a little toward the underside of it - not the underside of the tongue, just the slightly underside of the tip of the tongue) to touch the tip of the reed. This way when your head is in normal position and your clarinet is about 35 degrees from the body, the angles work out.
I feel the tilt-head issue here is related to your jaw movement. Because if you tilt your head, then the mouthpiece is lower in your mouth, so the tip of your tongue is too close to your lower lip, especially if you bite. And sometimes the tongue may even touch the lower lip and it will definitely affect your lower lip motion."
This has occurred to me. Occasionally I'll attempt to reposition my tongue, but never invest enough practice in it to make any progress. I'll discuss this with my teacher.
It seems that my problems are largely related, and that once one begins to improve, the others will improve with it. Is this an accurate assumption? Lip movement must be related to tongue movement and therefore jaw movement; all of these must have an effect on the angle of my head.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2009-10-01 19:48
Max, for your last comments, in my opinion, technically the jaw/lip are not supposed to move with the tongue, period. If you think about it, this is quite unnatural, when does the jaw not move if the tongue moves? i.e. it doesn't happen naturally but you have to actually think about it and control it.
But I do agree with the point that these problems are related. The position of the tongue and the maybe too much movement of the tongue can result your other problems, like jaw movements. The tilt head issue, imo is definitely a result of the low tongue position.
Lastly, it was also noted by you, it will definitely worth your time to correct the bad habits. During the process, it might feel like you have no hope, but after it is completed, you will fee that you suddenly improved a ton!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-10-01 23:20
maxnorman wrote:
>> What is your opinion on long-tones? As I mentioned in my original post, I play them with a double-lip embouchure, to strengthen my lips, but I am not conscious of the posture of my tongue. Should I attempt to regulate it, as Tian mentioned, while I play long-tones and scales?>>
I'm a bit reluctant to get into your problem, as I don't really understand what is actually happening. That's one of the problems with the Internet. I was only responding to your quoting me, and to McKinney's webpage talking about 'n'.
Actually, I don't think you should 'try to regulate' the position of your tongue. Others will tell you to the contrary; but the fact is that your tongue is quite capable of finding out what it needs to do to get the effect YOU want....if you let it. Trying to make it do what someone else says it should be doing, especially since it's very difficult for you to KNOW what it's doing, ISN'T LETTING IT.
However, it IS worthwhile knowing that different tongue positions have different effects. That's another matter.
If you've read me on the subject, you'll know that I also think it's best to have a clear idea of what embouchure, tongue action, diaphragm flexion and other similar things are AIMED at doing -- rather than worrying about what different people say is exactly how you 'should' be implementing them, and which of their ideas is 'right'.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-10-03 13:59
I had a look at Michelle Gingras's video (and incidentally, learned that she pronounces her name (s)Jingra, ie with a soft 'g' and no 's', which was news to me.)
I thought that something like Gingras's exercise (GE) might well help with separating out the action of the tongue from movement of the jaw. However, GE is unnecessarily demanding on a student with your problem, and might even be confusing in some cases. (You notice that she herself moves her jaw slightly as she demonstrates.)
The exercise would be significantly improved, in my view, if it were done without the clarinet, but with your mouth shut, and WITH VARYING DEGREES OF 'BITE', starting from medium force and reducing to the point where you're only just keeping your jaws together. (This would be the smallest degree of 'bite'; the one corresponding to the situation in which you could pick up an egg between your teeth without breaking it.)
Horror of horrors! I just USED THE 'B' WORD!!!!!
But unthinking application of the mantra that you should 'avoid biting' has its own dangers. Deeper understanding is required.
I've commented elsewhere on the 'Ridenour Technique' (RT) of setting jaw aperture and then sliding the mouthpiece into the mouth until it's 'snug'. It's a psychologically good way of making sure that you don't overcompress the lower lip to the point where it has no freedom to vary the three variables it controls, namely:
(1) pressure exerted on the reed
(2) position of contact and area of contact with the reed
(3) the lip's own vibrational characteristics as a more or less flexed muscle
...all of which need to be variable in real time.
On the other hand, you shouldn't kid yourself that that RT means that you aren't exerting more pressure with lower jaw via your teeth on the inside of your lip in order to keep the aperture constant as you move the instrument in. Otherwise the clarinet would push on your lip, your lip would push your lower jaw down, and the instrument would CONTINUE to move in.
What RT does is underline the notion that (2) is variable, and more variable than we may think if our approach is the alternative one -- namely, to put the instrument on our lower lip and THEN shut the mouth. The effect of RT is to bring the variability of (2) into consciousness, and to produce a fundamentally gentle embouchure address to the instrument by its clever use of the word 'snug'.
But if you go further, and try to deny the idea that there are forces acting between lip and teeth -- forces that need to be counterbalanced by equivalently small forces exerted by the jaw muscles -- then you are at odds with physical reality. Trying to achieve the impossible, you may make your situation worse.
Going back to GE plus my modification, we see that VARYING the work of the jaw muscles while we move the tongue has the effect of bringing that variation, AND THEREFORE THE JAW ITSELF, into our consciousness.
We may then more easily dissociate the behaviour of the jaw from the behaviour of the tongue in actual playing.
After all, the experience of moving the tongue while playing the clarinet is much closer to the 'shut mouth' version than it is to the 'slack jaw' version.
NOBODY plays the clarinet with a SLACK jaw.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
