 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-04 19:12
Dear Boarders:
I have come to the conclusion that many of us have been duped into believing that the tongue position can alter the pitch and or resistance of a given note.
In recent trials where I set my embouchure securely, then proceed to move my tongue around like Indiana Jones' whip, I find that I get NO CHANGE IN PITCH WHATSOEVER.
I firmly believe the following:
When we say the sound "OOOOO" when speaking (especially when over enunciating) we get that vertical oval shape to our lips. To do this, we OPEN OUR JAWS (in addition to lowering the tongue).
So, when clarinetists say they "voice," what is really happening is that they are openning their jaw. This causes the embouchure to be the main support against the reed (which represents LESS pressure) and consequently lowers the pitch (and changes the response of the reed).
Most of you will disagree. I am prepared for that. But I would like to know how many of you agree.
Key to defining this issue is that the fewer "changes" we need to make from note to note, register to register in technical passages of great leaps the EASIER this all becomes.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2010-03-04 19:18
Paul,
Neither agreeing, nor disagreeing. Just asking:
Does this mean that you're continuing to play the way you've always played? And that you've just become more conscious of something that, for you at least, was always true: that the motion of your jaw controls the position of your tongue, and that's all there is to it?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-04 19:31
To clarify, I am saying the tongue does NOT play a part in the pitch process nor does it affect the "placement" and or response of a note.
Watching a recentlly posted Ridenour video where Mr. Ridenour contends that a clarinetist was compensating as much as 20 cents (on the tuner) for intonation errors in the clarion by "voicing" the notes differently.
As I played with this notion that I have been becoming more and more doubtful about over the years, I have just come to a definitive conclusion for myself............it's bunk.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: TPeterson
Date: 2010-03-04 19:39
This is a video of
Tim Peterson
Band Director & Clarinetist
Ionia, MI
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2010-03-04 20:17
I also disagree completely. Seems to me you're moving just the front half of your tongue. Have you experimented with moving around your throat area, or the back of your tongue? You know your tongue goes all the way back there right? I think your observation is bunk, IMO.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-03-04 20:17
Video link is not visible, Mr. Peterson
Ignore this post when/if the link is edited onto your original post. Thanks
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-04 20:53
Paul, I think the problem is that you're defining voicing simply as tongue movement. That's not really what voicing is. Voicing is changing the size and shape of your oral cavity/vocal tract.
Much of that involves some tongue movement, of course, but it is tongue movement of a specific kind--namely, that which expand or contracts or otherwise shapes the oral cavity. Sometimes you can use it change the pitch, but oftentimes you will use it to change the timbre or the resonance of certain notes.
I have actually tried doing the opposite of your experiment, where you keep your tongue stationary and loosen your jaw pressure. The pitch lowers, but not to a very appreciable degree. If you lower your tongue at the same time, however, you can bend pitches a great deal. I can bend a high clarion C about a 5th lower if I use my tongue along with loosening my jaw, for instance.
Also, a lot of the jaw movement I use when bending/adjusting notes is really in the back of my jaw. That joint back there (the TMJ) is more flexible than a simple hinge. And while you don't want to get too carried away with stretching that joint (because it can cause injury), there is an extent to which you can open up your oral cavity without making a very appreciable change to the embouchure (assuming you don't "bite," of course).
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-03-04 21:22
Paul,
I agree with your statements in general.
I have always believed that most, perhaps 80%, of a clarinetist's sound comes from the mouthpiece and reed combination. So that leaves about 20% which is changeable, or can be voiced.
Also I have a very strong idea of the ideal tone for each note. The muscles in the back of my throat automatically assume a different position for high e above the staff and another position for low chalumeau e below the staff.
For me clarinet voicing is more the relationship from one note to another rather than shaping a single note. Think of a piano which has no tonal flexibility. The relationship among the notes creates the voicing and not the individual notes. While I certainly don't think the clarinet's voicing palette is as fixed as a piano's, I do think it is not as broad as let's say a violin.
I also play flute which in my opinion has a large palette for voicing. Sometimes when I have a slow melodic passage for flute I play it on the clarinet to give me an idea on how to milk the musical line with dynamic variation, but without vibrato. Then when I play it my flute I can add further tonal refinements and vibrato.
Bartmann
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-03-04 21:49
All the above may be related to the old mischievous question, do we BREATHE through the instrument or do we BLOW it ? Singers breathe out their notes so I figure that clarinetist make the old cylinder reed pipe sing by breathing through it. But then again , to say that we 'breathe' the clarinet doesn't have quite the same ring about it as saying we blow it.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-03-04 21:54)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-03-04 22:30
For me, the tongue changes timbre, "tone colour", if you want. For pitch use the jaw (or embouchure).
Both do have an effect on perceived pitch - the tongue in changing the numbers of higher partials, overtones, the jaw in the fundamental pitch.
An electronic tuner will probably be unimpressed by changes in tone colours, which seems to be what you were experiencing. Sometimes it is difficult to de-couple tongue movement from jaw movement. Like some of us roll their eyes skywards when that high note - a lot is subjective, and a lot of our bodily movements are intertwined in a number of ways.
Generally, I think you're right, even when I think that the pitch we believe we hear is different from what a tuner is hearing.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-03-05 01:38
I have never found that changing tongue position made a difference in pitch, but it does allow you to control pitch differently.
For example, I can go from high C above the staff and bend the note down quite a bit, but I have to change my tongue to do it.
I also find the idea of voicing to be allow different notes to respond more easily- generally all the notes in the upper clarion and up need some attention to the tongue, whereas the low notes come out no matter what.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-03-05 06:05
This has been dealt with a great deal in the past.
Here is a response I gave some time ago to a similar statement;
It seems to me there are two distinct parts to a workable tongue position:
1. The placement of the tongue on the reed.
2. The shape the back of the tongue makes in order to optimize tone and intonation.
Tom (said):
"I do find I really have to concentrate on keeping oral cavity the same and stay really sensitive to the pressure, because if I don't that sound change will change and very noticeably. It won't be a bad sound, it might be a color that I could find useful for some piece of music."
You might be interested in looking at some of the recent research regarding the oral cavity. Specifically "Oral tract fluctuations in clarinet and saxophone performance: an acoustical analysis/by Peter G.Clinch" Monash University libruary www.lib.monash.edu.au
Peter was a former teacher of mine. An inspirational Saxophone player. His research (and other research) led him to notice the large amount of movement with the back of the tongue and within the oral cavity. He felt that each note had an optimum position.
Michael Webster in the Clarinet has listed a number of studies that describe tha pattern of this movement.
In the Clarinet Vollume 30 Number4 He lists a study by Raymond Wheeler he goes on to suumerise some of Wheelers findings.
These included:
"1. During performance...the throat opening near the uvela is quite narrow for the low register tones. The upper rear portion of the tongue is in a high position. as the scale ascends into the clarion and altissimo registers the upper rear portion of the the tongue moves gradually downward and forward....
5. There is only one positon the tongue can assume while sustaining a given tone and that must not be changed, although some teacher-performers profess that tone quality may be improved by adjusting the tongue's vowel or syalble shape for any tone....."
Michel Webster goes on to list as study by Dr,Richard Stasey, "a prominent Houston otolaryngologist" (not sure about the last term but my goodness it sounds impressive).
He finds that
"1. There is more throat activity in clarinetists than in other woodwind players..."
I hope you find this of interest. I found some of the ides in conflict to what I felt I was doing, after reading some books on brain function I have adopt the attitude of the Lion in Madagascar (sorry-two young children here) ie"never trust your instincts"
Here is the Wheeler article, posted by Tony Pay some years ago;
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/05/000454.txt
[ Link provided - GBK ]
It's a fascinating article. The interesting thing to me is the fact that what we think we are doing is often quite different than what science tells us is actually happening.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-03-05 10:57
Very interesting article from Tony.
I find this statement:
"you can easily play in all three registers of the
instrument, with no embouchure variation at all, just blowing with
varying pressure down the tube. I almost got up to a top C''''! (This
an octave above C''' above the stave!)"
Could cause a rethink to those teachers and performers who suggest tightening of the embouchure (in this case lips) is crucial to having success with the altissimo register.
Chris.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2010-03-05 11:47
Paul,
I must also disagree with your basic assumption - or else we may be struggling with the semantics of the term "voicing". I think almost all of us can play an altissimo "C", and bend the pitch down as much as on octave just using tongue position and changing the dimensions of the cavity of our mouths - even without lowering the jaw. Is this not "voicing"? Can you not make any given pitch brighter, more "covered" sounding, etc. just by using your tongue and oral cavity? Is that not voicing?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-05 11:51
A trumpet player friend of mine wanted to know what the heck the diagram was I was looking at when reading this second article. I described what was going on with the box and the rubber gasket demonstrating that all the notes of a clarinet can be achieved just be varying air speed.
Surprisingly, he told me that there was a similar experiment with a trumpet. Of course the gasket had to mimic the buzzing of the lips.
Guess what............?
Same results !!!!!!!
All the notes of a trumpet are easily played WITHOUT varying the taughtness of the vibrating medium, and all the notes are easily played without ANY pressure against this buzzing medium. The only variable was air speed.
hmmmmmm
So, the first article Tony posted represents the crock that we hear and pass on to our students.
Sure there are a number of clarinet players that do "X" with their lips/tongue (and whatever else) every time they play a given note but that DOES NOT mean that "X" is what makes that happen, or that it's necessary... OR THAT IT ISN'T GETTING IN THE WAY OF MAKING IT EASIER.
Bottom line: I am not saying we can all put down our horns forever because we have machines to do that now. What I AM saying is that we should be a little more careful about what we take for granted and pass along to others. Those carefully held beliefs may just be another hurdle rather than a help.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-05 12:11
I also want to respond to MartiMagnini because the "sound" issue can't be ignored.
I have to admit that you are hearing the rantings of a "convert." As a teenager I wanted nothing more than to be the next Gervase DePeyer. To achieve this sound, I got myself a pair of Boosey and Hawkes 1010s and proceeded to play "AHHHHHH" tongue position style much to the dismay of my Chicago peers and teachers.
It was John Yeh who first said to me that "open throat" is "closed throat" (back of tongue occluding top of throat). This openned my mind but killed my spirit. It took many years of wandering through the desert before I finally came to accept this and the ramifications (I'm a tough student).
What I believe is happening with the other "back of tongue" positions (not the throat............please let's not have anyone claim they have voluntary control over their throat) is that the air stream approaches the tip of the mouthpiece/reed in different direction and different speeds.
So yes, the English school of clarinet playing has a slightly more hollow sound opposed to the very direct French or French/American sound, but this cannot be attributed to a larger oral cavity perse when we see "the box" work just fine. If the SIZE of the cavity made the difference, "the box" would sound so different as to not be recognizable as a clarinet or so low in pitch as to sound like a bass clarinet..............but it doesn't.
So it really only leaves directionality and speed (and our imaginations) as variables.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-03-05 12:28
I have found that "voicing" or altering tongue position works for me both in altering pitch and timbre.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-05 13:08
I wrote:
>> I find:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/12/000764.txt
...also relevant.>>
I think this article has been misunderstood. The point is that the 'hippopotamus' device is very different from a human player. You cannot deduce anything about what WE 'should' do from it.
Our mouths have a volume more than three orders of magnitude smaller. Indeed, since humans vary considerably in their physical makeup, it lends support to the idea that different players 'should' adopt different strategies.
I find myself fortunately free from the constraints laboured under by dogmatic, lay-down-the-law legendary-teacher-worshippers.
I try to think intelligently about what I do, and I listen to what (some) other people say; but ultimately, I do what works.
And, 'voicing' is not a crock. See, also:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/10/000046.txt
Tony
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2010-03-05 13:15
Paul,
Again, I think we may be arguing with semantics. Perhaps what some of us are thinking is that using your tongue position / oral cavity mouth to affect air directionality and speed IS voicing. Air directionality and speed affects timbre and pitch. We consciously change our tongue position to alter the air directionality/speed, which in turn alters timbre and pitch (even if slightly). That's what I think of as "voicing" - perhaps you have a different definition.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-05 13:37
>>In recent trials where I set my embouchure securely, then proceed to move my tongue around like Indiana Jones' whip, I find that I get NO CHANGE IN PITCH WHATSOEVER.>>
I've never managed to make my tongue (which seems to be the ordinary, blunt-ended, human variety) whip around with quite the vigor described here, but I don't doubt that a thin little whip of a tongue, like a snake's, would affect pitch-bending and voicing considerably less than a tongue of more fleshy substance. Therefore I completely trust the description above and bow to the superior wisdom expressed therein.
However, my mundane tongue does in fact bend the pitch quite a lot, all by itself, and one of the many things I had to learn in order to play more or less in tune without driving myself batty (snakey I might not mind, but batty -- no) was to find the place to park my tongue for each part of the instrument's range and then make sure I didn't go flapping around in there, because if I think about words and absent-mindedly start letting my tongue shape them as I'm playing, both the intonation and the tone quality go seriously out of whack. For me, voicing works, and Indiana Jones's whip isn't going to change my mind about that.
Lelia Loban
http://members.sibeliusmusic.com/Lelia_Loban
Let's see if it's really true that I can make my new pet human type this for -- oh, wow, it does work! Look at that, Lelia's typing what I think at her and she doesn't even know it. Well, maybe I'll have to go back to Professor Shadow Cat's Underworld Academy and apologize for miaowing her a superstitious old stiff-whisker and see if she'll let me back into her sleep-learning class. Maybe I can impress her if I can get my new humans to change the ridiculous human name my former human stuck me with. But I still think those clarinet things are inanimate objects and nothing Professor Shadow Cat's said and nothing I've read through this human is convincing me otherwise.
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2010-03-05 13:49
Tony Pay wrote:
> ...what we think we are doing is often quite different than
> what science tells us is actually happening.>>
is a very interesting point in many ways, and leads to MUCH misunderstanding. I cannot move the back of my tongue without changing _something_ in the back of my throat, for instance, even though I normally don't notice I'm doing it.
Apropos to another statement talking about "conscious voicing", there is another part that at least I do "unconscious voicing". When playing a duet I automatically find an "in tune" and "sounds good to me" place with whoever I'm playing with - it's not something I'm aware of at the moment, but it's part of some "closed loop" system that possibly I've developed over the past 45 years of playing some sort of instrument. I can do it consciously if I want to (like varying my breathing rate or to some small extent, my heart rate) but mostly I don't "think" about it. I adjust on the fly as necessary. Sometimes I adjust to another note that "sounds right" when it actually is the wrong note ... whoops.
Unfortunately, that doesn't make me a good player, but it is one less thing to work on - unless I'm working on something else and the automatic voicing gets in the way ...
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-05 14:21
Voicing is not a crock. No matter what you feel does the voicing, voicing occurs.
I saw a video of an ultrasound that a clarinetist had put on his throat to see the position of the tongue and throat as he went up the range of the clarinet. The teacher (his grad student had done this) was making the point that on certain notes the tongue actually drops (contrary to what most of us are taught).
Wow, Right??? Wrong. The sound changed in an undesirable way.
When the jaw is taking out of the picture (the bottom teeth are no longer pressing on the reed in any siginificant way) there is a void left for something to FOCUS the sound.
When a player is used to biting (as most of us are), the tongue position and voicing does relatively little. When the biting is removed, the tongue and throat play a much larger role in voicing.
Consequently, when biting is removed and proper voicing is made, there are a near infinite amount of colors and shapes of sound available to the player. Pitch is more even across the instrument.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-05 15:08
I know voicing isn't "a crock" because I discovered it for myself before anyone ever mentioned it to me, and long before I became aware that there was even a name for it.
Incidentally, how do you know that it's jaw pressure that makes your pitch go up and not oral cavity resonance? When you close your jaw, it increases the lip pressure on the reed, but it also contracts your oral cavity at the same time. How can you be sure that it's the increasing pressure on the reed that is responsible (or primarily responsible) for making the pitch go up when you tighten your jaw? Perhaps it's "lipping" notes up to pitch that's "a crock."
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-05 15:45
MRN,
I'm not sure if you were responding to me or not. I meant that when excessive jaw pressure is used it does the voicing for you (to a much less desirable extent). I think you're right about what happens when the jaw pressure is reduced, there is a void or space left in the mouth and oral cavity (because the jaw is more open).
That, to me, is where the real work starts with voicing and tongue position.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-05 16:21
I almost was not going to add my opinion to this post because the title of it is so rediculous. Of course voicing is legit, it just depends on how different players approach it. There have been many intelligent answers to this post already, especially from MRN. Paul, what you're forgetting is that every player is different, every body is different, no two players have the same physicial measurements. Big tongue, small tongue, fat tongue, thin tongue, long tongue, short tongue etc. Each of these measurements will play differently for every player so what works for one person with a short tongue will not have the same effect for a person with a long tongue. That's why there is no one way to teach everyone to play the same way. So many things vary from one player to another.
Consider that some players use their tongue almost exclusively to do the famous Gershwin gliss, their tongue does most of the voicing. I've had many students whose throat tones where unfocused and therefore "sounded" flat until I had them raise the back of their tongue to improve that problem. Sure it could also have to do with embouchure, breath control, throat position but also tongue. I've had students that had a small, pinched tone in the clarion register and as a result played sharp up there as well. When I got them to change their tongue position, as well as an embouchure and throat adjustment, everything improved. As a matter of fact I would have them use a tuner to experiment with what I told them to do and when they were able to play those notes in tune their tone improved greatly as well. Is it all the tongue, no, but the tongue is part of voicing. With some people it is a major part, with others it's a minor part. It all depends what you already sound like to begin with. You know, don't fix it if it ain't broke. There is not just one factor that makes a player play in tune but the tongue is an important component for most, if not all players if they realize it or not. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-03-05 19:33)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-03-05 18:04
If one looks at pitch stability as a starting point then perhaps it sheds some light on why different opinions occur. If your setup allows you to lock into higher pitches without changing anything then you will likely think tongue position doesn't have influence on pitch. If your setup has more latitude for bending pitch ....more open say softer reed the slotting is not so set. You will find tongue position influences pitch.
In my estimation a high tongue position will discourage dropping the jaw with high notes and as a result help keep things from going flat.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-03-05 18:24
Here is an experiment that you can do.
Plug your ears with well fitted earplugs. Now play clarinet notes slowly in all registers with varying tongue and throat positions.
Also pay close attention to jaw tension on the reed as you change all the variables.
Voicing? yay or nay?
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: TPeterson
Date: 2010-03-05 19:15
I just posted an x-ray video of Ray Wheeler from many years ago to YouTube that clearly shows what happens to the tongue when playing the clarinet. I don't know if anything you can see could be easily or clearly identified as "voicing" but it is very interesting non the less. A special thank you to Bob Spring for giving me this video in the first place! Search for "Ray Wheeler clarinet"
Tim Peterson
Band Director & Clarinetist
Ionia, MI
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-05 20:13
NBeaty wrote:
Quote:
MRN,
I'm not sure if you were responding to me or not.
No, I was really responding to Paul's original post, although I must admit that I took some measure of inspiration from the directness of your post when writing my own.
Ed wrote:
Quote:
There have been many intelligent answers to this post already, especially from MRN.
Thanks, Ed.
TPeterson wrote:
Quote:
I just posted an x-ray video of Ray Wheeler from many years ago to YouTube that clearly shows what happens to the tongue when playing the clarinet.
Great video! Here's a direct link for everybody who hasn't seen it yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id5O3Tk5YV8
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Author: sdr
Date: 2010-03-05 20:58
There is some very elegant scientific evidence for "tuning the vocal tract" in sax players that appeared not long ago in the prestigious journal, Science. A popular version of the info is available here:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/SaxTract.html
There is no doubt that the same phenomena hold true for clarinet players.
-sdr
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-05 21:52
Tim Peterson wrote:
>> I just posted an x-ray video of Ray Wheeler from many years ago to YouTube that clearly shows what happens to the tongue when playing the clarinet.>>
Thank you, Tim. I had despaired of ever getting to know more about Wheeler than the article I posted.
The main reference in that article is also probably of interest; in January I wrote to the representative of NACWPI as follows:
>> Dear Mr Weerts,
I am interested in reading the following article:
Raymond L. Wheeler, "Tongue Registration and Articulation for Single
and Double Reed Instruments," NACWPI Journal, Vol. XXII, No. 1, (Fall,
1973), pp. 3-12.
What are my options?>>
He directed me to a library; but perhaps you or someone else can tell me what there is of substance in it beyond what we already have in the later article.
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-03-05 21:52
Video is good.......I'll have to do some looking.. so far my vote goes to "maybe a crock". I think voicing will put you in the proper overtone slot or register and could have little to do with the pitch of the individual note.-- if the reed is quite stable.....not squirrely.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kimber
Date: 2010-03-05 21:58
I love the video. As a speech therapist who spends the day trying to re-teach people tongue motor movements for speech and swallowing, it was facinating to see the tongue tip, soft palate, base of tongue and posterior pharyngeal wall all work together to shape the airstream. (I test swallowing disordered patients everyday with this type of xray procedure.) I noticed particularly that the soft palate tended to elevate more rigidly during the higher notes (unmatched by his ee-ah sound trials) slightly increasing the available resonance space. I'll have to watch the video a few more times to see if I can adapt some of my speech/swallow exercises for clarinet playing application. :-)
Post Edited (2010-03-05 22:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-06 00:02
The video is amazing !!!!!!
Tony, I think we can indeed teach a hippopotomus to play the clarinet !!!!
Toward the end of the video you see/hear some leaps..........look at what is happening to the lower teeth of this player. Clearly he makes HUGE changes to where he is hitting the reed; LOWER, for the lower notes; higher, for the higher notes. We can't really see much change (to this system) for the glissando unfortunatley, but my money is on huge lip muscle changes going on here.
And as for the "voicing" of the altissimo register. WHEW. I'd slap my stand partner silly if he sounded like that up there.
Kimber ............... DON'T DO IT !!!!!!!!
...........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-03-06 00:18
To those who can be bothered reading, the link provided by sdr provides a great deal of info relevant to Clarinet players. One of the secondary links accessible from sdr's first link is a scientific paper entitled:
How do clarinet players adjust the resonances of their vocal tracts for different playing effects?
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/Fritz&Wolfe2005.pdf
The last part is heavy going. Here is some data now everyone is free to interpret it how they will...
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2010-03-06 02:00
I saw Raymond Wheeler present this information, including films (using a fluoroscope) of the movement within the oral cavity at one of the early Clarinet Conferences at The University of Denver around 1974 or so.
Fascinating stuff, especially as it seems to contradict some of the common concepts of high tongue position for high clarion and above. At the time, I must admit I didn't really grasp the significance of this presentation, but when I learned concepts of voicing (from Fred Ormand and others), my clarinet tone vastly improved. I consider clarinet and saxophone to be primarily "voicing" instruments, as exemplified in the teaching of Joe Allard and others, and my experience in teaching this concept to my students, as well as my own personal experience, has consistently borne this out.
AB
AB
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-06 02:35
Inspired by the "said video." I have proceeded to reverse this experiment in "isolation." Prior, what I had achieved, was to move my tongue completely independent of jaw and lips.
I won't bore you with my findings there (listed above).
This go around, I was taken by the glissando of our "invisible clarinet player." Being a pretty good note bender myself, I attempted to achieve the same results with ONLY THE LIPS AND DEGREE OF JAW OPENNING.
What happened?
In the altissimo I was able to bend a note down to approximately a minor third below (not just 10 cents mind you) !!!!!
In the clarion, I was restricted to a major second (again quite substantially larger than 20 cents).
In the chalameau I was only able to achieve a minor second below the fingered note, but that is still much better than 20 cents.
.............so much for predetermined "scientific results."
VOICING IS DEAD
...........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-06 03:19
Gee Paul, all this time I thought I was actually voicing using my tongue, at least in some cases. What did I know. This is pretty much the same as "ligatures make no difference" or "all mouthpieces play alike" or maybe even "you can't use a hard reed and get a good tone" or "you should never use the alternate fork key in the left hand". I think your theory that the tongue does not do anything for voicing fits into those catagories. As far as I'm concerned, I think that's your problem not those of us that actually use our tongue to voice sometimes. ESP
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-03-06 03:23
Paul,
Try bending from ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif) down to G or E. I would be interested if you can do it without moving your tongue.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-06 04:35
Dear Skygardener,
As stated, I am limited to a major second in the clarion without using fingers. Once you incorporate fingers, the gliss is a piece of cake.
All I am saying is that the tongue, back of tongue, throat (see back of tongue) is redundant or worse a stumbling block.
Perhaps we have gotten too used to tying the tongue with the jaw and lips since we have developed speach well back before our ability to remember (individual lifespan wise I mean).
Some of the above criticism is contradictory, such as: "high tongue postion discourages dropping the jaw and going flat." So if dropping the jaw is what affects the pitch, why is the high tongue position relevant in the first place.
OR
"play with earplugs in all registers with different tongue positions and pay close attention to jaw tension." Well if the different tongue positions themselves should reveal changes in pitch, what does jaw tension have to do with it?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-03-06 08:29
I say again...
" I would be interested if you can do it without moving your tongue."
I didn't say a thing about using fingers. Keep the fingering for C6 and bend the note to the E below and let us know what happens.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-06 14:40
Dear skygardener,
A major second below the indicated written "C" would be the next lower "Bb." I can achieve a written "Bb" without using the tongue whatsoever, only using my lips and openning the jaw slightly.
This is not an easy exercise because as I've said, we have been engrained to execute speech (without conscious thought) which ties the tongue, jaw and lips together as one organic mechanism.
If you take the time to isolate what you are doing with your tongue from your lips, and also isolat what you doing with your tongue from your jaw you should glimpse what I am talking about.
Again, look at the video one more time, only concentrate on the lower teeth movement in relation to distance from the reed and position relative to the reed (up and down).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-03-06 15:28
Well, I don't make any claims about that video. I am not the one in it, and I am sure there can be a few ways to do the same thing. Also, the performer in the clip is clearly not in the professional level as far as technique goes, so their movements might be more or less or different than the way more proficient people play. Thus, the video is not a yardstick that I am basing my ideas on.
However... yes, THAT person IS moving their jaw.
What I DO know that when *I* bend the C down, I make the changes with my tongue and the air pressure, not my lips or my jaw. Yes, IF I change my jaw, I can bend the pitch down a little, but not much- only Bb or maybe A- not that far. To go further, the tongue must be involved and the jaw can't lose pressure. If anything, I find that the lips have to put a little MORE pressure on the mouthpiece.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-06 16:18
skygardener wrote:
> What I DO know that when *I* bend the C down, I make the
> changes with my tongue and the air pressure, not my lips or my
> jaw.
Me, too. I point my tongue downward and under the reed and it makes the pitch go way down.
Actually, practicing this pitch bend down from C6 is a good way to learn how to control the instrument in other contexts, such as large leaps, especially clarion/altissimo cross-register leaps. My teacher had me practice this as an exercise for that purpose when we worked on the Copland Concerto (which, as everyone knows, is chock full of delicate slurred leaps to/from the altissimo).
In that case, though, positioning your tongue absolutely makes a difference. Now, from a scientific/acoustical standpoint, is it the tongue position itself that causes the pitch to go down or is it some other side effect of the tongue movement that makes the difference? I don't know. But from the standpoint of WHAT YOU DO (which is most of what matters to us as players), whether you move your tongue makes a big difference.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-03-06 21:38
Moving your tongue higher or lower in your mouth allows you to adjust the air-speed without varying the pressure applied to the reed. This is a fact, whether it is called "voicing" or not is another matter.
Post Edited (2010-03-07 07:59)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-03-06 22:50
Paul Aviles has made some important points that I don’t think we have successfully answered.
Let me from the start state that I do think voicing is important. Here is one of the issues that Paul has (in a blunt manner) put forward that needs to be resolved:
“So yes, the English school of clarinet playing has a slightly more hollow sound opposed to the very direct French or French/American sound, but this cannot be attributed to a larger oral cavity perse when we see "the box" work just fine. If the SIZE of the cavity made the difference, "the box" would sound so different as to not be recognizable as a clarinet or so low in pitch as to sound like a bass clarinet..............but it doesn't.
So it really only leaves directionality and speed (and our imaginations) as variables.”
Paul Aviles
This is an intelligent point. There is another variable that no one seems to have considered. This is the presence of internal nodal points that we use to bring out the harmonics.
As an example; most good players can over blow the Clarinet without touching the register key. I am suggesting that this is what is happening with the tongue in the Wheeler video. Our tongue is performing a series of complex gymnastics in order to bring out the desired part of the harmonic spectrum for each particular note.
Her again the amazing video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id5O3Tk5YV8 Wheeler video
Paul says:
Toward the end of the video you see/hear some leaps..........look at what is happening to the lower teeth of this player. Clearly he makes HUGE changes to where he is hitting the reed; LOWER, for the lower notes; higher, for the higher notes. We can't really see much change (to this system) for the glissando unfortunatley, but my money is on huge lip muscle changes going on here.
The real issue here is that we cannot ignore what the tongue is doing. Why do we all (good players) follow similar patterns if it makes no difference as Paul implies.
The existence of internal nodal points is very hard to prove. I don’t think they can be observed. So I sit here and wait to be shot down.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 07:34
Chrls wrote, quoting Paul:
>> "If the SIZE of the cavity made the difference, "the box" would sound so different as to not be recognizable as a clarinet or so low in pitch as to sound like a bass clarinet....but it doesn't." This is an intelligent point.>>
The thing to see, I think, is that the walls of the 'box' are so far away from the vibrating reed that any resonances have a minimal effect on sound or pitch. The behaviour of the reed is dominated by what happens inside the mouthpiece and clarinet. So the hippopotamus has no problems.
When the cavity is much smaller, the resonances start to matter, and need to be appropriate to the intended sound and pitch, co-operating with the influence of the clarinet tube rather than interfering with it. The time needed to learn to control these resonances is what makes playing the clarinet effectively a non-trivial process.
That's why ignorant, dogmatic and prescriptive pronouncements on what your tongue 'should' be doing may be counterproductive. My little post on tongue movements in speech, above, describes how I came to be more aware of the sorts of movement that I habitually make when playing, say, the Mozart concerto. I had no idea of the extent to which that occurs, and certainly no idea of the details of what my tongue does from note to note. I obviously learnt 'what to do' unconsciously -- as we all learn 'what to do' unconsciously in order to speak.
Just to get a flavour of why this sort of thing annoys me: imagine a 'legendary teacher' being able to instruct an infant in what they 'should' be doing with their tongue in the first couple of years of their life, in order to speak. (And gaining money and prestige out of doing so, regardless of whether or not it worked in any particular case.)
Tony
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 11:44
>>Tony, I think we can indeed teach a hippopotomus to play the clarinet !!!!
>>
Nope. Hippos don't have the fingers for it. Opposable thumbs would help, too. (Has anybody asked hippopotomi whether they *want* to play clarinets?)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-03-08 04:22
On oboe there is an exercise where you play a long tone and move the reed in your mouth side to side. The note should remain relatively the same if it is stable in pitch. I maintain the same occurs with the clarinet. If the set up is stable you can play with four ping pong balls in your mouth or raise or lower your tongue....the pitch should stay constant. If the reed is too flexible or just too weak you will have to work hard...pretty well everything you do will affect pitch.
Freelance woodwind performer
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