 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bobba
Date: 2009-08-30 15:35
we broth this clarinet to Canada 11 years ago. We bouth it around 1993y or 1994y but at that time clarinet was already old 15 years or more.
Only we can see is "Special" made in Czechoslovakia, it's weary clear with golden letters.
There is noting else to tell us about it.
If somebody can help us to know little bit better about it and how much cost today.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-08-30 16:47
It's an Amati (Kraslice), today's equivalent would be a 3xx series (depending on how many keys/rings it has).
During the last years I've seen a handful of them, they have (a good mouthpiece provided) decent sound and intonation. The keywork and sometimes the tone holes might profit from a bit of attention to get the instrument up to today's standard, but that's nothing insurmountable.
Value? Tough call. These instruments aren't all that popular; from past quality issues Amati has a bad rap and a lot of people wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, even if they only know the brand from hearsay. So, if you have any resale value in mind, forget it; if you want to "have it done" for your own pleasure, ask for a cost estimate.
(Similar models appear under the trade names of Corton, Boosey&Hawkes 400, La Fleur and some others, mainly in the UK)
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-30 18:14
"Czechoslovakia" only existed from just after WWI to just after Neville Chamberlain handed it over to Hitler. So, you can put the manufacture between 1918 and 1939....round numbers. Ben has addressed the value question accurately. In my opinion you'd be lucky to get $35 U.S. for it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-08-30 18:51
Bob, I beg to differ with you on the dating: Per Wikipedia:
"Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state in Central Europe which existed from October 1918, when it declared its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, until 1992. From 1939 to 1945 the state did not have a de facto existence, due to its forced division and partial incorporation into Germany, but the Czech government-in-exile nevertheless continued to exist during this time period while Slovakia was independent from the Czech part. On 1 January 1993 Czechoslovakia peacefully split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia."
Thus the clarinet in question could have been made as late as 1992.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-31 00:26
Amati instruments made after 1993 will say 'Made in Czech Republic' on them - prior to that it will say 'Made in Czechoslovakia'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bobba
Date: 2009-08-31 13:15
good day
Clarinet is older than 1992y. We both that clarinet 1993 or 1994 and on clariner we can see "Special" made in Czechoslovakia, it's weary clear with golden letters. Clarinet was old 20 years before we both them.
That clarinet can not be $35.00 US
Anyway thank you
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-08-31 13:40
1975 sounds about right.
In Some Auction Site I see a "Special" in good condition for £65 with no bids yet.
I'd say the market is willing to pay $100 maximum for a used, ready-to-play instrument of that caliber.
The current Amati 311 is ~$600.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-31 17:19
"Per Wikipedia:"
Ah, Dave, one of the dangers of Wikipedia is that the content is not always completely accurate. I can recall when some Japanese imports here carried the label "Made in USA". Ben seems to think the instrument was made by Amati, but I'm not sure of that myself. As an aside I wonder if Wikipedia states anywhere that Czechoslovakia was invaded by Poland before Hitler did. Anyway, sorry for the digression and I won't continue it. But I'll still stick with the $35 comment.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-08-31 22:37
Attachment: AmatiSpecial.jpg (161k)
Bob, if you don't trust Wikipedia, maybe you trust the The CIA Factbook (expand the "Introduction").
And yes, I'm 100% certain that Amati made the "Special" clarinet. I overhauled one myself (see attachment)
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Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-31 23:06
These same clarinets went under various names depending where they were marketed - in the UK they were mainly branded as Corton and distributed by Rosetti (who are still the UK main distributors of Amati instruments, though the name Corton has been dropped), as well as Lafleur and later B&H 400 - both through B&H.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-01 03:50
>> I'd say the market is willing to pay $100 maximum for a used, ready-to-play instrument of that caliber. <<
That depends on what market. Locally the Amati 201 sell for a bit more than the price you gave for the 311 model. So 311 would be more. Any older model would usually be judged by someone actually trying it, so if someone thought it played pretty good, it could probably sell for $200-$300, maybe even more..... eventually.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-01 07:20
Nitai,
my bad - I had the "internet auction site" market in mind. "buy sight unseen" comes with a hefty discount tag.
Selling a clarinet face to face where the customer can actually try it will in most cases yield a higher price, with that I agree.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-09-01 11:43
Ben: Although I don't associate the word "trust" with the CIA the expanded clip re Czechoslovakia is descriptive of the geographic area that was known by that name between ca 1918-1939. Interestingly, I find that the blurb makes me recall Tony Pay's recent post re "Descriptive" and "Prescriptive" and to tag the blurb as Descriptive since it leaves the details for the reader to fill in. There is some relationship between the descriptor "Czechoslovakia" and Camelot since both are still talked about but don't exist. And we've never actually seen this clarinet either. But I do trust what you relate , Ben.
I own one Amati Bb Sop wood clarinet and it exhibits excellent craftsmanship but it wouldn't sell on eBay for what it's worth. I know this from experience.
Old Amati violins are highly regarded by most violinists and, who knows, there might be a collector out there who would pay more than $35 for an old Amati clarinet.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-01 11:58
But don't confuse Amati (Cremona) violins with Amati (Kraslice) violins!
On the other hand, if someone not very informed is selling an Amati (Cremona) violin as an Amati (Kraslice) violin, then you can retire early and live very comfortably on the profit you'll make.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-09-01 14:25
Slovakia wanted to go its own way in the 1990s, and this is the reason Czechoslovakia became two separate states, Czech Republic and Slovakia. Prior to the end of communism, that may not have been a choice, and Czechoslovakia may indeed have had little absolute autonomy. Nonetheless, it was Czechoslovakia to everyone until that time.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-09-01 15:03
"Nonetheless, it was Czechoslovakia to everyone until that time."
I beg to differ. The three provinces of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia were separate ethnicities prior to 1918 even tho they were all part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Slovakia never did want to be part of Czechoslovakia. Moravia was indifferent. That's it for me as this is all irrelevant to the original post.
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-09-02 19:52
-- "Ah, Dave, one of the dangers of Wikipedia is that the content is not always completely accurate."--
I don't know about the clarinet, but you're absolutely right about Wikipedia.
It relies on volunteers and there are many mistakes.
There was a case recently of a British politician, registered as a Wiki volunteer, who logged in and changed information on a page so it matched with what de big boss was saying to Parliament.
According to Wikipedia my kids can't study music in the last two years of their school which is weird because my son is doing just that right now.
George Orwell's 1984 is already here. You want the truth? No problem. What do you want the truth to be?
Don't believe everything you read.
Steve
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-09-02 22:02
Look y'all, argue all you want about pre-1918 history or whatever, my point was simply that the area was known as "Czechoslovakia" from after WWII to 1992, therefore the clarinet in question could have come from that time period. Jeez, you guys bicker like a bunch of ___ _____ _____ (fill in the blanks with your favorite expression).
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-09-03 07:09
They should have stamped it "Made in Prague". Then we would have been denied our fun.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-09-03 07:35
-- "Jeez, you guys bicker like a bunch of ___ _____ _____ (fill in the blanks with your favorite expression)." --
Oh wow, I love these. Is there a prize for the best one? ;-)
Steve
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-03-08 13:25
@BobD and others: The label "Czechoslovakia" was only used from 1946 to 1992. Former the Kraslice town was a German town named Graslitz. It would be very strange to find an instrument marked with "Czechoslovakia" before 1945 ;-))
The instruments from Amati Kraslice were marked with the series number and the series type from appr. 1975 to the end of 1992. After 1992 the full golden label sign (ack) is mandatory on every part of the body (upper part, lower part, cone and bell mostly).
Cheaper instruments done between 1945 and appr. 1975 were often marked only with "Amati Kraslice" on the cone and somtimes with "classic" or "maestro" and a type (f.i. maestro M500) on the upper body. I would assume, the described clarinet was a former student model only marked with nationality, not the series and not the manufacturer itself. Would be common to typical (Amati) instruments spread in European region.
Some of the cheaper models from hard rubber (ebonite) were given to the friendly armies (Czechsolovakia, Poland, GDR, Russia, Hungary a.s.o) in very high numbers (please keep in mind, that Amati does apr. 20.000 Instruments the year!). These instruments left unmarked often. They only show a simple counting series number. It's only to find the provenience by measurements and lever/cover design.
An interesting fact is, that some of the (terrible cheap) current Chinese or Taiwan plastic instruments were based on these army models from Czechoslovakia ;-) They show the same measurement, intonation and lacks...
Let me repeat one simple fact: There's no Czechsolovakian marked instrument possible before 1945 at all - because the main manufacturing town was a German (manufacturer Keilwerth a.o.)! There's no one fabrication known outside of this area in later Czechoslovakian region.
kindly
Roman (an Amati player from Germany)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-03-08 13:55
To muddy the waters only a little more, there are the Kohlert instruments from the WWII era (give or take) which are marked as having been made in "Graslitz" either in "Bohemia" or in "Czecho-slovakia". I have one of the latter.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-03-08 14:02
Be sure to interprete right! Is there any hard hint to the origin of the "Czecho-slovakia" provenience?
Kohlert was a German manufacturer and common he wrote/marked German (made in Germany was a good selling item, better than Czech or Slovakian). Furthermore the manufacturing regions were named as Boehmen and Maehren, not Czech or Slovakia!
Please contact the instruments museum at Markneukirchen for some more information! I won't believe this fact as genuine. But could be, that any marks were done so.?
Could be interesting to see some pics of the mentioned clarinet in the first post. But I would expect, that this instrument was made near 1975 or a little bit later.
kindly
Roman
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