 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2010-02-20 15:43
Hey everyone!
It seems as though pretty much everyone who was won a major job in the last few years has been playing a Vandoren mouthpiece. I am not usually a mouthpiece geek, but I have been fooling around with a lot of the M Series Vandoren mouthpieces (M13 Lyre, M15 and M30) and have just not been satisfied with them. I always keep going back to my Hawkins R Model (which I love). I am a little confused as to why so many people play the Vandoren
mouthpieces...because for me, I just don't think they work. I feel like I can play with a wider range of colors, play more dynamically and have greater flexibility and articulation on my Hawkins. I have never been one to think that a piece of equipment would make you win a job, but with the success of so many people using the Vandorens, I just don't know anymore. I really value someone who plays with a beautiful sound, but in my opinion, it's not necessarily your sound that wins you the job (not that it is an excuse to play with a bad sound by any means!!!!), but it's your rhythm, technical ability and musical expression and tuning. As Gail Williams puts it, "The Three T's" (Tonguing, Technique and Tuning).
BUT...it also seems that the common factor with people who have been winning jobs has been that many of these players studied with Yehuda Gilad...and I know he usually has his students play the Vandoren Mouthpieces...so that could be it.
What do you guys think? I am at such a loss, and completely miserable with the Vandoren products...but I ultimately want to be employed!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-20 15:50
Well what does a horn player know about the clarinet? :-)
Seems to me that the bottom line is students that dedicate themselves to intense study, a phenomenal teacher, and perhaps (just perhaps) not so much equipment fixation.
Vandorens work. They are consistant. Why take the time to knock yourself out trying all sorts of "stuff" when you have something that works?. So instead of taking the time away from practice (and auditions) to get used to yet another mouthpiece, they JUST PLAY.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-02-20 16:23
In my experience, Yehuda Gilad is all about finding your "inner singing voice," not about playing mouthpiece x y or z. Whatever mouthpiece allows you to find your own unique voice (that's in time, in tune, in style, etc.) is the one that's right for you. The mouthpiece is merely a filter for what's in your head anyway.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-02-20 19:04
.. the title of the topic here leads to the answer
I think that alot of intelligent thought needs to be perpetuated here.
Again, stated many feel Vandoren are not good,
but I will say their blank recipe is very rich in timbre and stable as well.
After my Hite D facings died I have stuck with M15 13 series facings for the last few years. Instead of refacing I have gone with M15 13 series and not looked back. They are flexible and have great sound. THE M15 is very reed freindly too! MORE SO THAN THE HITE D FACING!!!
ONE caveat
players need to test and take time to pick out a mouthpiece. The more the better. Anthony McGill I believe still plays on a Vandoren and sounds incredible!....
Choosing a mouothpioece means not just trying a number of facings but also trying at least 10 of the same facing. This process takes time and nowadays everyone is in a mad rush...too bad.
Vandoren mouthpiece are world class provided a player finds the one that works really well for themselves.
That is redundant logic...however, Burt Hara, Mitchell Estrin to name a few sound fantastic not just because of the mouthpiece but what they can bring to it. They chose Vandoren because they are comfortable..and it is a good piece of equipmebnt....now it is time to practice.
As for me I really think the M15 is a superb mouthpiece, but players need to have choice of going through a few. I have been lucky in being able to try batches of Vandy mouthpieces.
I will also add that their are also superb mouthpiece makers here who frequent this board. These are great craftspeople and we truly need them. I for one love
Walter Grabner's work, he did a super job on refacing a Hite which I also use and it plays really well.
Fobes, Smith and Behn making incredible mouthpieces...so please people always remember to look for what you feel plays best. Never settle for less.
I think choice is very important and although not an advocate of all of Vandoren's facings I think the time is right to acknowledge the great contribution they do for clarinetists. I think Vandoren reeds are also very good and have yet to find reeds of any other maker that work for me..but alas..
I am on another topic and will be beheaded for doing so!!
David Dow
Post Edited (2010-02-20 19:10)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-20 19:15
If what you say is true about everyone winning a job playing a Vandoren MP I think that simply has t be a coincidence. Many great players play all kinds of different types of MPs. I think Vandoren make a decent MP, it's just a matter of matching the player to the MP. Tone does matter at an audition but it's a matter of judgement on the part of the committee and the conductor as to what they are looking for. Sometimes it can be the one factor that one person wins a job in the finals over another and sometimes it may make very little difference because all the finalists have good, perhaps different, tone qualities. But it's true, to win an audition you have to have good solid technique, good rhythm, good intonation, play musically and a hell of a lot of luck as well as the tone their looking for. It's the total package not the mouthpiece. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2010-02-20 19:25
It is true that a lot of recent job winners play Vandoren mouthpieces but obviously they didn't win only because they play a Vandoren. I have a couple of very good friends who are studying with Yehuda or did study with Yehuda. The little bit I have heard from them about Vandoren mouthpieces is he thinks that they have a better color spectrum meaning a lot of highs and lows in the sound where as many Zinner models have too many lows and not enough highs in the sound. I think I remember hearing them say he thought the Zinner material was too soft and that had an effect on the tone. Please don't quote me on that. I'm only conveying a very short conversation.
Many players sound amazing on Zinner mouthpieces and the list is quite long. I think it is also important to keep in mind that Vandorens can become fantastic if you have a mouthpiece piece with good internals and then have it refaced. I have two wonderful M15's that were refaced and are exceptional....so exceptional that I no longer pay attention to mouthpieces. These two M15's are perfect for me in every way and I love them more every day. One is the primary and one is the backup. They both have their own special qualities and so I use both depending on the situation.
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Author: George Stalle
Date: 2010-02-20 20:56
Great musician + good instrument + one of many good MP choices + correct barrel alignment + good reeds = what works
George Stalle
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-02-20 21:21
The first thing I noticed after I switched from Vandoren Mouthpiece about 10 years ago after playing B40 and 11°11 to custom Bay mouthpiece(and in fact all handmade mouthpieces I've tried) is that they are superior to Vandoren in reed friendliness.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-20 22:08
clarinetmc wrote:
Quote:
It seems as though pretty much everyone who was won a major job in the last few years has been playing a Vandoren mouthpiece.
Pretty much everyone who plays in a high school or community band and will never win a major playing job in his/her life plays on Vandoren mouthpieces, too. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
The only thing that matters is whether you can get good results with what you have.
To do the best you are capable of, you need to get to the point where you can trust your own judgment about what is good and what is not good. I don't play clarinet for a living, but I think that's generally sound advice for anyone in any field.
If you have good musical judgment, but don't trust it, you won't ever reach your full potential. And if you have bad or under-developed musical judgment, you are going to be at a serious disadvantage in auditions, anyway, so you might as well begin to trust your own instincts now--in the long run, it's the only way you'll be able to develop them, anyway.
So if you feel you get better results with your Hawkins mouthpiece than you do with a Vandoren, then you need to stick with the Hawkins--plain and simple.
The fact that you asked this question suggests that you believe there is some special quality about these players' playing that is imperceptible to you but that makes the difference between winning an audition and not--you seem to believe that using the same mouthpiece as they do will give you this imperceptible quality that you lack.
I think that's baloney. I firmly believe that you cannot reliably produce, duplicate, or emulate what you cannot perceive. A mouthpiece can never make up for a lack of musical perception. Instead of asking yourself what mouthpiece so-and-so uses, you ought to be asking yourself what it is about the way they play that's good. If you can't figure it out yourself, then ask somebody else to tell you what they hear, so you can learn to hear it for yourself. That's the function of a good teacher, after all--it's not to give you an easy formula for success, but to teach you how to find your own way (which is harder, but nonetheless absolutely essential).
Incidentally, I once watched a video masterclass presented by a professional musician (whose name escapes me, unfortunately) who remarked that the #1 reason people get eliminated in professional auditions is *rhythm*.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-02-20 22:27
"It seems as though pretty much everyone who was won a major job in the last few years has been playing a Vandoren mouthpiece"
I have to question your first basic statement. Can you be more specific? Which major jobs are you talking about?
I know for instance that the winner of the Concertgebouw audition last year played on a Kanter mouthpiece (the runner up played Vandoren!)
I just can't believe that the mouthpiece brand has much to do with it.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2010-02-21 00:50
It has absolutely nothing to do with it..
Burt Hara plays Vandoren.
Alessandro Carbonare is a Vandoren artist.
Mouthpiece choice is personal and shall always be. I remember at one point everyone was playing crystal ...man I could never get used to crystal but some players sound fantastic on crystal. Material is such a small aspect of the process.
David Dow
Post Edited (2010-02-21 01:12)
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Author: cpark
Date: 2010-02-22 02:55
Correlation does not imply causation.
In other words:
The mouthpiece is not causing them to win, but quite possibly, the skill and musical ideals of these top quality players is probably leading them to choose the equipment in question.
Chris
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-02-22 14:11
Do I sense the beginning of a Vandoren Mafia? If players use a VD on a Buffet, are they even more likely to win? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Jeff
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-02-23 12:28
Timely-
The winner of the North Carolina Audition yesterday was a Yehuda Gilad student who plays an m30. My bets are that he won because he practices his @#% off, not because he plays a Vandoren.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-23 12:43
Whenever I hear a rumor that "everybody" who's successful at a given occupation can trace that success to the use of a certain product, I'd place my best bet not on the product itself but on the supposition that the rumor originated with an employee of the company that manufactures said product....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-02-23 12:55
JJAlbrecht: " Do I sense the beginning of a Vandoren Mafia? If players use a VD on a Buffet, are they even more likely to win?"
Paul Miller: " No, but they might need to get a prescription for a good antibiotic..."
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif) ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
JustMe
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-23 16:22
cpark wrote:
Quote:
Correlation does not imply causation.
In other words:
The mouthpiece is not causing them to win, but quite possibly, the skill and musical ideals of these top quality players is probably leading them to choose the equipment in question.
What you say (good players tend to choose Vandoren mpcs because they are good) may actually be the case, but that's not what "correlation does not imply causation" means. "Correlation does not imply causation" means that you can't make a causal inference at all from a statistical correlation.
Your remark does make such an inference; you've just reversed the direction of causation. So instead of inferring that playing Vandoren mouthpieces makes you good, you make the inference that being a good player makes you inclined to choose good equipment such as Vandoren mouthpieces.
That isn't necessarily true, either, though. Some people (including good players) can and do choose their equipment based on habit (e.g., I've always played on X) or tradition (e.g., my teacher plays/played on X) or (surprise!) price.
Don't get me wrong--Vandoren makes good mouthpieces, and what you say may actually turn out to be true (i.e., many of the best players choose Vandoren mpcs. because they get the best results that way)--but it takes more than a mere statistical correlation to make that sort of inference with confidence.
Keep in mind, also, that there is another factor at work here--one that a good repair guy once tipped me off to, and that is this: There is an extent to which the more skilled you are, the less little differences in equipment matter to you because you have the skills to compensate for them. A minor leak that might prove devastating to a beginning or intermediate player, for instance, might be hardly noticed by an advanced player who's spent a lifetime developing a "feel" for how to coax the instrument to do what he/she wants.
Same thing probably goes for mouthpieces, too. As long as they have something that's *adequate* for their purposes, a skilled player can get excellent results that a less-skilled player (even with fancier equipment) won't be able to achieve.
Vandoren mouthpieces are good enough to meet most professionals' needs, they're a "known commodity" (like the Buffet R-13), and they won't break the bank. I think that's probably the main reason why so many (professional and amateurs, alike) use them.
As a side note, have you ever noticed that the "top professionals" on the BBoard (i.e., the ones with the most illustrious orchestral and solo careers) often have the least to say about equipment brands/choices? The general impression I get is that once they find something that works, they simply stick with it. Perhaps I'm wrong about that and I'm just imputing my own attitude about equipment to those I look up to--creating clarinet gods in my own image, so to speak--but that's the impression I get.
Post Edited (2010-02-23 16:26)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-02-23 20:08
"There is an extent to which the more skilled you are, the less little differences in equipment matter to you because you have the skills to compensate for them."
I was thinking specifically on this when last determining whether to buy an X a couple of months ago.
The greatest players will sound great on whatever they choose (within reason). For me (someone who is simply "really good") excellent equipment has a greater total impact on the ease of my expression.
Conversely: poor equipment is more detrimental.
James
PS: I have played Vandorens, but never used them for any period of time in my life, and it's certainly not the reason I haven't one a symphony job!
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: cpark
Date: 2010-02-23 22:35
Mrn,
Thanks for the rebuttal, I completely agree with you.
I was trying to highlight the absurdity of the first claim, and put forth another (more reasonable IMO) hypothesis. But yes, you are right on, I was just offering another correlation, that may or may not be causal.
Ultimately, it's probably due to a number of factors, and not even worth speculating about...it all comes down to who plays the best on the day of the audition.
-Chris
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Author: TPeterson
Date: 2010-02-23 22:48
This is not unlike when I heard Julian Bliss play a plastic "Bliss" clarinet, a hybrid, and then a grenadilla model, one after the other in a clinic. He even played on a little girl's 30-yr-old plastic Bundy! Were there subtle differences when he played each instrument? Of course. Did he ALWAYS sound like Julian Bliss? Absolutely. The player is by far the most important factor.
Tim Peterson
Band Director & Clarinetist
Ionia, MI
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-02-24 06:28
If the player is good enough, you could slap a mouthpiece on a sewer pipe and they'd sound awesome. This will sound completely tautological, but whatever works and sounds good, will work and sound good.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-19 06:25
Why are Vandorens popular?
1. They are excellent, with plenty of variety in models to choose from
2. They are cheap
3. They are cheap
If I have a 100.00 mouthpiece that I can really play with, why would I want to spend 300.00 on a custom piece and THEN buy a replacement so I'm not screwed when my boutique mouthpiece breaks?
Unless money is no object, that plan does not make sense.
(sorry to revive an old post, had to share)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-19 12:37
AND they are very consistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece.
Of course I just found a massed produced mouthpiece that brings accuracy of lay from one to the other to an even HIGHER level........the ESM (Ernst Schreiber Michelstadt) of Germany. Their MCK 1 facing made specifically for the American market is simply "dreamy" (if you like closed facings that is).
..............Paul Aviles
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