 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ewqasd
Date: 2009-08-02 03:28
Hi everyone,
I'm about to get a new professional clarinet. After trying many clarinets, I narrowed down to two clarinets- Ridenour Lyrique 576BC and Buffet R13.
Even though Lyrique is only about $1000 and R13 is about $3000, I think Lyrique plays just like R13. So it seems like Lyrique is better with prices, but the the fact that Lyrique isn't a wooden clarinet is bothering me.
Can I have some pros and cons for each clarinet? And, if you were to pick one, which one would it be and why?
I need some helps and advices.
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Author: HBO
Date: 2009-08-02 06:50
I had my Lyrique for 8 months now, and I am really happy with it. It was way better than my E11 (duh...), but I was always wondering how it would compare to an R13. Then, during the morning rehearsal for the District Festival, I got my chance to lay my hands on a real R13; I asked a fellow band member I know if I can try on his R13, a request he allowed. I knew that he actually went into the local store and tried the stock of the R13s they had before choosing the R13 he purchased.
The R13 was a decent one, but not as close to my Lyrique. There were some points (i.e. crossing the Bell B) I had to put an effort into, some notes were really out of tune, and the articulation was a bit more awkward... and above all, the tone of the Lyrique was much more preferable to that of the R13 (much more dark and full and round). I'm not a good player, and I do acknowledge that I only played on the R13 for only one hour, but still, it was enough for me to convince the Lyrique was a very decent clarinet.
To keep it short, I'll just compare the Lyrique and the R13 in terms of several things to look for in a clarinet... might not be a complete list, but I think it's still pretty decent...
1. Tuning: (Winner: Lyrique) Hard rubber is very stable... there is no need for you to pull out barrel every now and then during performance just to keep MOST of the notes in tune...
2. Sound: (Winner: Lyrique) I don't know if it's just me, but Lyrique sounds way more dark, round, anf full to my ears, even to a mediocre player like me.
3. Playability (i.e. articulation, scales): (Winner: Lyrique) I was reading posts about Lyrique the other day, and someone mentioned compared the Lyrique to a car so smooth that you don't even realize you're driving... and I think the person summed it up really nicely. No need to feel that grunt everytime you encounter the bell B or play in the altissimo range... the R13 I played with required me horrible efforts everytime we had to go into the altissimo range... had little or no problem with the Lyrique though.
4. Keywork: (Winner: R13) R13 does fit into hands more nicely... feels a bit better too. Once you get used to the feeling, Lyrique is pretty good also... but not as good as R13. Still, you can't get everything...
5. Price: (Winner: Lyrique) a bit obvious, but I think prize really counts in this economic situation... other might have different opinions though.
6. Volume: (Winner: R13) Wooden clarinets do seem to enable you to play louder...
Of course, much nicer R13s could be found, and it's just my personal opinion, but I think in general cases, a Lyrique would do much more nicer than an R13. I mean, it does feel weird in the beginning, playing a RUBBER clarinet (when the majority plays either wood or plastic clarinets), and the smell is a bit hard to put up with for the first few weeks , but once the smell goes away and you get used to the clarinet, the Lyrique would be much more worth than an R13... After all, which would be nicer: playing a wooden clarinet that will not play stable, or a hard rubber clarinet that sounds nice, stays stable (no or little danger of cracking! think about that...), and is really smooth to play with? Think the logical choice would be the second, where you can forget about all worries associated with a wooden clarinet and just focus on making the music... I hardly think the material comes into consideration when it comes to playing the clarinet and making music during your performances... When the performance is terrific, who would give a darn about the material from which your clarinet was made out of?
Post Edited (2009-08-02 06:51)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-08-02 10:09
Are any professionals in Full-Time Orchestra's playing one? Has anyone won a major competition or full-time Orchestra job with one?
Has anyone gotten something even as minimal as 1st Chair All-State on one?
It does seem like they are an amazing price bargain though.
Personally, I'm not far from getting one, as for teaching it seems like the perfect Clarinet - it won't get ruined sitting on the stand all day like a Wooden Clarinet would in the winter.
It's only a matter of time till I get one.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-02 10:58
David said: " Are any professionals in Full-Time Orchestra's playing one? Has anyone won a major competition or full-time Orchestra job with one?
There are many!
Just look at a few that use them on this comment page ( including somePrincipal Clarinetists and professors):
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/clarinetcomments.html
And lets not forget Welsh National Opera prinicpal clarinest Leslie Craven
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-02 11:19
ewqasd:-,
Pros:
1. Is more consistent ( you won't be trying out a dozen of them in an effort to find one that plays more in tune).
2. Plays more in tune than those costing more than 3 times as much.
3. Plays easier ( especially in the top register).
4. Plays much easier over the break.
5. Is a third of the cost.
6. You don't have to worry about humidity or taking it outside.
7. You don't have to worry about it cracking.
Cons:
1. Some say they don't like the tone in the "lower end". One Principal Clarinetist uses the Lyrique with a backun bell that solved this problem for his taste...
2. Because it isn't one of the "big four", you may meet with some prejudice from other clarinet players.
3. Because it isn't a wooden clarinet, you may meet with some prejudice from a few clarinet players as well.
4. You may also meet with some prejudice because it isn't a "status symbol" clarinet!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-02 12:33
I have a pair of Festivals and a Lyrique in A.
I personally think that if I had neither and were to choose one (this is your situation), I would go with the Lyrique.
The main pro for me is-
-You get it direct from the maker. If there is any tuning issue or problem of any kind, you can send it back to Tom and he will fix it himself. If you have a problem with the R13 you send it back to the place you got it and you hope that the repair people there are good at what they do.
-For the same reason as above, it is checked before shipping and it probably plays better "out of the box". For Buffet, I would not want to buy one unless I had at least 6 of the same model to chose from.
The cons are-
-There is no left hand Ab/Eb and no option for it. This is is biggest problem for me. I like the LH key.
-There is a balance between good pitch and pitch that matches other clarinets. This clarinet has better pitch in general, but it may not match other clarinetists that you play with.
-It will need some key adjustment initially, but only SOME work. This is just the same as if you were to buy an R13; with the R13 would probably need more work than the Lyrique.
-Some people might thumb their nose at it the material. Just tell them you paid $4000 for it and you'd be amazed how their opinion changes. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-02 12:34
"We'll continue right after these Commercials. " } But who better to promote than Billy Boy who probably knows more about clarinet design than any other single living person.
Bob Draznik
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-02 14:33
I have both: a new Lyrique and a classic R13. THe R13 I have is a very noce instrument, but it's from a time when Buffet used the best wood they had for these clarinets, and the wood was overall at a higher quality level.
I find the tuning in the Lyrique to be a bit better, and there aren't the altissimo issues that I had with he R13. I don't have to worry about temperature or humidity changes, except as they affect tuning. Tom is also only a phone call or e-mail away. I had one very minor problem with the Lyrique clarinet early on, and a phone call to Tom gave me the info I needed to take care of the issue. I could have shipped it back to him, but that would have involved a couple of weeks being without the instrument, and I didn't want to ship it off for something so minor I could pretty much take care of it myself.
Several members of my band --who are quite open-minded about brands and image-- told me I made a good choice in picking out the Lyrique as my main instrument. They are now looking to get one, too.
Jeff
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Author: William
Date: 2009-08-02 15:28
From HBO's great review, it sounds like the Lyrique is very much like my set of Leblanc Concertos, which TR designed (and worked on for me). They are absolutely great instruments in every way, except for "point 6"--volume. And, in my opinion, that is what gives the player the ability for flexability of expression and the ability to project solos through the ensemble--and simply put, be heard by the audience. For years, I loved my Concertos, but was always fighting to match the volumne levels of other players, even with the best of reed and a fairly open mouthpiece (Chicago Kaspar #14). So, I returned to my excellant set of vintage R13's two years ago and have not looked back. They are a bit more difficult to play with regards to tuning, but quite managable. Not as smooth "over the break" and from C6 to C#6 at ppp levels, but again, managable--I can play anything with them that I could with my Concertos, but now it is easier to simply be heard. And, my old Buffets have that wonderful "ring" to the sound that I always missed with my Concertos--which, my point is, that they may play very much like the Lyriques, as TR designed both. At best, put this in the FWIW folder for possible help in desciding if the Lyrique is best for you. The best test is how well they play in the ensemble, and not necessarily how good they sound by themselves. For ensemble playing, my R13s are the winners.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-08-02 16:05
My lyrique is great. I've played a buffet festival once that (IMO) was probably the best clarinet I've ever had my hands on. But that doesn't mean EVERY buffet festival is great. And it's also MUCH more $$$.
My lyrique worked well for me in our concert band, in our clarinet quartet, and I can't wait to get back home to get back to it.
William, I had the same problem with my set of Opus clarinets. GREAT clarinets, both tuned by a pro, but I had a problem matching volume levels. I have sold them a few years ago and the lyrique is a great all-around instrument with MANY strengths, few weaknesses. I think it's main weakness is that it doesn't seem to garner 'respect' from the more close-minded folk. The local shop refuses to work on it so if I need it overhauled, I have to send it away and that's some time without it.
But from people who remain open-minded about it, it gets high marks.
Alexi
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-08-02 16:17
Why wouldn't a local shop want to work on it????
That's just messed up. Tom wouldn't put his name on something with crap springs, posts, pads - that would typically be the reason why a shop wouldn't want to work on a horn as they know that there are just too many things wrong with it.
Sounds like they are treating it like a CSO which it certainly isn't.
btw - I'm a material snob. I'll try anything, but won't change my style to fit something that I don't prefer.
I'd like to see the Lyrique put up against the Greenline.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-08-02 16:50
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Why wouldn't a local shop want to work on it????
>
Beats me. They talked very snobbish about it. I think it's one of those shops that thinks they're better than everyone else cause they have the majority of work from the local schools. So obviously they are the "go to" guys and THEIR opinions should be taken as facts.
Sigh. So my ridenour clarinet just usually gets sent to Tom himself. Or since I'm in TX, I will plan a ride up to his place to drop it off and have him mail it back or pick it up another time.
Alexi
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-08-02 18:27
My concern about the Lyrique is this: after Tom is dead and gone, who's going to service the clarinet? I'm not trying to be negative, just honest.
The two main instrument repair people in this region (in two different states) will gladly do any needed repairs on my R13 but they have said they will not touch a Ridenour clarinet.
I've met a lot of resistance to Ridenour clarinets (snobbery) but his proponents are CRAZY about his horns. The only reason I've even been interested in the Lyrique is because a university clarinet teacher (with a large studio) who plays in area orchestras adores Tom's clarinets. He has nothing but fine things to say about the Lyrique.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-08-02 20:25
Claire Annette's concerns.....(man that name sounds familiar.......) are mine as well. As it is, I figure if Tom for some reason cannot service the clarinets, I'll probably have to come back to this board and find someone who will, and mail it off to them.
Alexi
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Author: Clari
Date: 2009-08-02 20:47
One thing no body mentions is the resale value. If you are going to keep it forever then it is not an issue.
Buying a used R13 and pay 300 to have a good repairman to overhaul it is about the same price as a new lyrique and you might not lose a dime when you sell it couple years down the road. The lyrique has terrible resale values on the famous auction site. This is a practical thing to think of.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-08-02 22:54
I've also worked with a repair person who told me the keywork is terrible, and with really cheap materials, and that he hates working on Lyriques because of it.
I respect this repair man a LOT and he's never been anything except honest with me, and I can't imagine why he would ever say something like this unless he meant it.
Is the keywork on the Ridenour instruments bad? I hear so many really mixed reviews about these instruments I am completely confused whether it is a good instrument or not!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-02 22:58
I never thought about the repair thing.
Do so many of the repair shops really refuse Tom's clarinet?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-02 23:47
My local shop had nothing bad to say about it and made a nice adjustment for me in an emergency. The tech (whom I trust) looked it over and said it looked fine to him, overall. He also services my and my daughters Buffets.
There really isn't any reason for some of the shops to diss the horn and Tom like they do, except that maybe he's selling a ton of very nice instruments for a price 1/3 of the price of the name brands. Might it also have to do with the fact that he sells direct, cutrting out shops and their profits?
I haven't heard anyone complain about QC problems like Selmerplayer was relating to us regarding the wooden Selmers he had gone through over the past couple of months. With hard rubber, it's not even an issue.
Maybe I'm an oddity, but I don't tend to go through an instrument every two years or so, like others above have mentioned. If it works fine, why get rid of it? If the pads need replacing, that's an easy repair. I'll never have to worry about getting a crack fixed, though!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-08-03 01:07)
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2009-08-03 15:35
I suspect that it's not a question of resentment about direct selling or lower profits that's driving the refusal of techs to work on these clarinets. Instead, I think it more likely that there's a bias against all Chinese-made CSOs that prevents them from evaluating the Ridenour on its own merits. It probably takes only two or three attempts at "fixing" a badly made Chinese clarinet that would prompt a tech to resolve never to waste his time again.
And it appears that early Ridenour 147s had -- if the traffic on this board and the klarinet list is correct -- quality control problems that Tom had to suffer through in the early years of his brand. I got two 147s off of the well-known auction site for $50 each -- one is quite nice; the other not as nice.
Looks like he (Tom) has fixed the QC problem with lower output and meticulous personal attention to each Lyrique that goes out.
My own experience with a tech relates to an Arioso (the brand Ridenour used after "Ridenour" and before "Lyrique") bass clarinet I ordered from WWBW. It needed an adjustment on the register key mechanism, which wouldn't allow me to play low notes. (Incidentally, I have ordered three or four clarinets [only purchasing one] from WWBW of the years, and every one of them wouldn't play initially, due to a serious key misadjustment!) The tech at the local store here refused to look at the Arioso bass clarinet once he determined he'd never heard of the brand. So I had to send it back to WWBW, and ultimately bought a used Selmer from a friend here in Sacramento.
Slowly, I think the tech universe will come to realize that the Ridenour Lyrique is a fabulous instrument, and they'll all work on them.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-03 15:37
Could just be me ..but...I have large hands and in the couple of hours I spent with it I could not get used to the keywork..I also did not like the ergonomic octave key. I found the thumbrest very uncomfortable but that is something that you can rectify. I did not find anything special or anything unfavorable about the sound, but I am a better teacher than player.
I don't know why a repair tech would refuse to work on it.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-03 15:42
Tom will swap out the ergonomic register key for a standard one if you don't like them (or at least he used to) on the Lyriques. As to the thumb rest, I found it easier to work with than the one on my old buffet, but I use a Thumb Saddle on either of the two, anyway.
Jeff
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-08-03 15:43
Every adult clarinetist should be able to maintain his own instrument; replace pads, adjust springs. keys etc.
A repairman who refuses work must be very busy indeed...let business fall off and he'll tootle a different clarinet.
The clarinets might be as good as it's zealots say. I hope it is...I'd like to see Buffet smugeness get it's comeuppance!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2009-08-03 21:23
There is no left hand Ab/Eb and no option for it. This is is biggest problem for me. I like the LH key.
Skygardner, Are you talking about the sliver key on the left hand?
Leonard
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-03 22:28
Leonard, look at photos of Buffet Tosca or Festival clarinets. The LH pinky key cluster (where you have the LH fingerings for E/B, F#/C# and F/C. Skygardener is referring to an additional key there, which would operate the Ab/Eb key that most clarinets can only operate with the right pinky. The Lyriques do not offer the optional key, or plating choices in silver, which someone else mentioned.
EDIT: Here is a link to a phgoto of a Festival on Walter Grabner's site. Scropll down a few photos until you get to the Festival, then look at the keywork on the lower joint: http://www.clarinetxpress.com/Newway.html
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-08-03 22:35)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-04 02:03
I guess Tom will have to start offering them with gold plated keys, then! ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2009-08-04 03:01
I would really like to try gold plated keys only because I like the look.
I played on mostly silver keys until I got my Lyriques. I have adjusted nicely to the nickel.
As far as repairs go, I take my clarinets, even my low C Ridenour into hostile places like bars and orchestra pits and they DO get banged up. My local shop does amazingly accurate and quick repairs on them for surprisingly low prices.
Back to the original topic: My Bb's of preference, in order are Lyryique, Yamaha Custom (wood), Buffet R13 (wood), Buffet E11 (greenline), Conn (plastic or rubber, very old).
This is very much a matter of what feels best, where you are in life and what kind of music you are making. I had a Lyrique C and A before my teacher (I'm a VERY old student) offered to sell me his Lyrique Bb that he had tweaked into near perfection by Tom before he declared it too heavy and turned to Rossi. It was so much better than any of my wood clarinets that I had to take the deal.
If the "image" thing is still a problem after you have realized that your favorite clarinets aren't from the major manufacturers, what I did while I was still insecure was to put my very expensive major manufacturer Eb clarinet on the stand right next to my Lyrique C, Bb and A. Right away it was recognized that I knew my stuff about selecting instruments. Being able to play the all of the horns well didn't hurt either.
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Author: Clari
Date: 2009-08-04 05:23
LonDear,
You said you own a E11 greenline?? When did Buffet start making E11 with greenline material? And your teacher said the lyrique is too heavy? The rubber clarinet is definitely lighter than the black wood clarinet as I own one myself. Are you just BS'ting??
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2009-08-04 19:02
Hi Clari,
I have no idea when the greenlines started, but I purchased my E11 in 1996 or 1997. I may have made a horrible assumption about it being greenline, come to think of it. It was the first non-plastic clarinet that I owned that came with instructions NOT to oil the body. I was baffled. Years later when I learned about Buffet greenlines, I assumed that my E11 was a greenline since they don't require bore oil. Now that you bring this up, I'll probably be paranoid about this 12 to 13 year old instrument cracking.
I agree with you about the weights. The Lyriques are lighter than most wood clarinets. I have a chart of instruments that I weighed that I'll try to dig up. My teacher has arthritis and went towards the lightest plastic he could find, not wood. The horns he takes to gigs depends somewhat on how long he has to play. If weight wasn't a factor, I think his favorite is a Cuesnon Monopole. My all-time favorite is a synthetic Howarth from his collection. It doesn't seem to be currently in production and is the heaviest Bb clarinet I have ever played.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2009-08-04 19:35
Whew, thanks David. I have never heard of such a treatment. It is finally good to know the real story on the oil-free horn. I originally bought it for my wife. I just got it back from another family member, and aside from the thing being really scratched up (arrgghh), the wood doesn't look dry at all. I did a quick play test, and now I think I like the tone of my old plastic Conn better. The E11 doesn't seem dead so much as thin and a bit inflexible.
Does the factory oil treatment wear off over time? Would there be any disadvantage to start oiling it now?
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2009-08-05 04:00
Thanks, Jeff. I don't think the lack of a left hand Eb/Ab key would be much aof a differnece, since I think most clariinets do not have this.
Leonard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-05 04:08
Those of us that have it have gotten used to it. There are things that cannot be played with out it, too.
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