 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-06 02:36
Although some might disagree that oiling the clarinets is a must, dry, cold weather has caused my clarinet to turn a paleish light black. make sure you take care of your instruments this winter. it's going to be a cold one.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-11-06 03:05
Ahhhh....but it's spring/summer in the Southern Hemisphere...
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-11-06 15:01
During the late fall and all winter, I keep my wood instruments in a supply closet.
With the use of a very inexpensive humidifier, I keep the humidity in the closet between 50% and 60% humidity. The instrumets are very happy in there and I do not have to deal with loose rings, binding keys, etc. I believe this reduces the risk of cracking as well.
This method works much better for me than orange peels and other objects placed inside the case. I have no objection to the orange peel method, but I can usually have 20 or more clarinets here and I can't eat that many oranges!
The only difficulty was my wife had recently cleaned out the closet and planned to use it for storage of other objects and then I appropriated it! My bad!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New Buffet Clarinets
World Class Mouthpieces
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-06 15:59
Know what you mean, Walt - I have only fair success keeping my wife from "reorganizing etc" my closet. I have a "chicken/egg" question to spice up this thread, should one humidify before oiling, or v v? My old Sel bass needs attention I'm sure. I still like old pill bottles with wet sponges which fit anywhere, even in bells ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-11-06 16:36
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived Bore Doctor oil and genuine Grenadilla oil)
Since plant derived oils hold on to a significant amount of water and therefore buffer the water balance in the wood IMO it is best to oil first and then keep humidity between 50-65% where possible.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-11-06 16:51
In my studio during heating season I have a humidifier running. Way, way too many Clarinets, Barrels and Bells to do it any other way.
But when I do jobs I put a couple of Humistats in the case to protect em.
I never bore oil. Gigliotti didn't believe in it (in Pennsylvania's climate anyway).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-11-06 20:38
Hmmm.... should I do something about humidity in my case? Winters are brutal here in Nova Scotia, very dry and cold.
Also, are very old clarinets more or less prone to cracking than new ones?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-06 22:55
Old instruments that are regularly played are less likely to crack than new ones - BUT they can still crack and should be treated to same respect regards warming up the whole instrument close to room temp before blowing hot moist breath into the bore.
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Author: Sea Dog
Date: 2008-11-07 00:41
Your advise to oil clarinets during the dry winter months makes a lot of sense. I live in the Arizona desert and here it is dry, very dry during most of the year. I have an R-13 and the Buffet people recommend NOT to oil the clarinet ever. I have talked to them twice (actually emailed) and both times they come up with the same recommendation. I do keep a small humidifier in the case. Have to keep adding water to it every two days or so. So what to do?
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-07 05:55
with the current arctic blasts coming down from the north, southern california is getting a taste of dry, cold weather. just be a bit more conscious about walking between rooms (but not overly conscious to the point of paranoia).
I love oiling with Grenad-Oil. (just a side note) it's aromatherapy.
have a safe winter.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2008-11-07 20:36
I just read an article from ClarinetFest '97 on oiling an instrument. My interest came from reading about "blown out" bores and led me here, but it may be of interest in general.
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/lifeeverlasting.htm
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-11-07 20:55
So, for vegetable and organic oils, is that the kind of thing you could buy in a grocery store, or not? And if so, what kinds?
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2008-11-07 23:14
What's Grenad-Oil and where can I get some?
And how exactly does one not get oil on the pads?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-11-08 02:54
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived Bore Doctor and genuine Grenadilla oil - Grenad-Oil)
Oiling is a very controversial issue but I think that the real science is coming down on the side of replacing oil in wood instruments. Many of the taboos from our grandfather teachers were based on the experience of not having scientifically formulated plant derived replacement oils or the natural oil from Grenadilla wood to oil their instruments. Almond oil is used by many but is very prone to autoxidation and turning rancid and vitamin E is a temporary but poor antioxidant to add to almond oil to keep it from turning rancid. Other plant derived oils and plant oil specific antioxidants can, and do, keep plant oils from turning rancid for many years.
Historical research has shown that certain plant derived oils can help preserve wood for many years - centuries. Home brews may be fine for some situations but "we" should trust IMO scientifically formulated oil mixtures for our valued instruments for very little additional cost just for the peace of mind that they are proven and have a documented track record among players and technicians alike. Genuine Grenadilla oil of course is a "no brainer" because it is the natural oil found in the instrument wood.
Over oiling can be eliminated by putting on thin even coats of quality oil and letting it sit overnight - if all of the oil is absorbed then the process is repeated until oil is present on the surface which indicates that the wood has absorbed enough oil and more oil is not necessary. Oil can be kept off pads by putting on a thin coat and letting it be completely absorbed, and also putting little squares of waxed paper under the closed pads to keep excess oil from getting on the pads.
The natural oil in the wood buffers the water content and gain or loss of water and also controls dimensional changes in the wood which lead to loose rings from loosing too much moisture or swelling with excess water and potential changes which lead to cracking. In the plant world - wood, water, and oil in the wood are all interrelated and a reasonable balance is necessary to maintain dimensional stability in the wood.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-08 05:56
Overall, I don't see a bigger % of cracks in clarinets that weren't oiled in comparison with clarinets that were oiled. There are still situations where I'd prefer to oil a clarinet. When I do this I usually prefer to disassemble the instrument and oil both sides.
I also like the oils from the Doctor. I've tried both Grenadoil and Bore Doctor. From what I understand there are differences in how they are made and what they are made of, with the Grenadoil being exactly the same as the actual oil in grenadilla (which probably sounds more attractive to potential buyers). Grenadoil is also a lot more expensive, if that is relevant (sometimes it is). Personally I haven't noticed any advantage of one over the other in the short period of time that I've tried Grenadoil (I've used Bore Doctor longer).
But there is another big difference between them which is the smell. Bore Doctor has a stronger smell and I guess it depends whether you like it. I really like the smell of Bore Doctor! It reminds of me a slightly soapy marzipan smell. The Grenadoil doesn't have a strong smell at all. But my own clarinet, which was oiled with Bore Doctor a couple of months ago, doesn't have any of that smell. I think the oil smell disapeared very fast after it was oiled which I guess makes the point about the smell mostly irelevant, unless you are oiling your own clarinet yourself.
I don't think clarinets should necessarily be oiled as much as some people suggest, several times a year. That sounds way overkill (though maybe it's different in really extreme weather). It's worth reading Steve Howard's article on oiling http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/oilingbore.htm where he mentions advantages from actually seeing very old wood instruments where the wood completely dried. It seems that a lot of his work is restoring old wood instruments.
He also mentions the issue of regular cooking oils turning rancid. He says it's not really an issue once the oil is in the bore, but it's best to make sure you use fresh oil. I guess that's the advantage of a type of cooking oil, you will always know it's fresh (at least if you are like me and like to cook). Oil that is bought in big amounts like Bore Doctor can stand for a long time, but Omar says it has strong antioxidants which prevent this problem, and my experience with Bore Doctor is that Omar is right.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-11-08 12:30
(Disclaimer - I sell plant derived Bore Doctor and genuine Grenadilla oil - Grenad-Oil)
Although the issue of oiling versus not oiling will continue it is worthwhile to hear anecdotal information from reliable technicians that see a lot of instruments and can make some general observations involving many instruments.
Not all plant derived oils and cooking oils are suitable to use on instrument wood but clues and common use of plant derived oils to preserve wood emerges from historical research from museum conservators and caretakers of wood artifacts in cathedrals and historic sites where wood has been preserved for hundreds of years with plant derived formulations handed down from generation to generation. Again, IMO it is best to use a quality oil that has some scientific basis for its composition and use and a history with use by technicians that repair and refurbish our instruments.
Since our instruments probably come from different trees each part may have different oiling needs so I suggest oiling parts and not necessarily the whole instrument unless all the wood has dried out significantly. In one of my own clarinets the top joint requires much more oil than any of the other parts - barrels, bottom joint, and bell so I examine each part for oil needs. A quick observation of gray and dull wood versus black and shiny is my indicator that the wood needs some oil. A lot of the oiling needs depend on your particular environmental conditions, amount of playing time, and characteristics of the wood itself.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-08 15:14
"Grenadilla oil of course is a "no brainer" because it is the natural oil found in the instrument wood."
Omar,
I have a question about that. Why would the natural oils of a specific wood be best for the wood? Is it not possible that soaking the wood in some other kind of oil is the thing that makes it more resistant to cracks and dimensional change?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-11-08 15:44
(Disclaimer - as above)
Well, yes -- other plant derived oils have been used for centuries to preserve wooden artifacts. My formulation of oil for woodwind instruments has only been around for 10 years so there are perhaps those that think that this is not enough history to prove the point that it protects and preserves wood, IMO helps to prevent cracking, and preserves dimensional stability of the wood.
Some people however do not want to put anything unnatural to the wood itself on it. I guess the "no brainer" is that if you want to replace lost oil with the exact same oil lost then Grenadilla oil fills the bill. If the natural oil balance in the wood is conserved with the same oil then there may be no argument about oiling your instrument versus not oiling it - if you believe as many do that it helps maintain moisture content, dimensional stability, and acoustic properties. There are still some old wife's tales floating about that oiling changes acoustic properties - perhaps because the nature of an oil foreign to the wood? There are still old tales floating around that oil does not penetrate the wood - proven wrong by scientific testing - but still repeated by students, of students, of students of legendary players.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-11-09 14:20
For years I used a combination of one part pharmaceutical-grade almond oil (surprisingly hard to find) and two parts virgin olive oil. Now I have one of the Doctor's oils (I forget which one) and a nifty oiling kit he also makes, and that's what I use.
I honestly don't know whether it helps or hurts, it just feels like taking your vitamins to me! Or brushing your teeth. Ya just DO it. And it IS aromatherapeutic, I find.
Incidentally, for what it's worth, I had a guitar top crack on me a few years ago and asked the tech if it was humidity-related. He said that the big danger in tonewoods cracking is NOT dryness or humidity per se, but a rapid alteration up or down, that causes cracking. I said, should I use a dampit in the guitar case? He said, positively NOT, because every time you re-saturate the Dampit, you're cranking the humidity up rather quickly, which is the thing NOT to do, especially if the dampit's sat bone-dry in the guitar case for any length of time.
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2008-11-09 18:06
A friend of mine had her clarinet oiled, and it completely ruined the intonation. Many of the notes became sharp.
The repair guy didn't why. Anybody?
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-10 05:41
"A friend of mine had her clarinet oiled, and it completely ruined the intonation. Many of the notes became sharp."
mind over matter? tell her to pull out the barrel and make the necessary adjustments in the middle joint as well. i've never had any intonation related issues due to oiling.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-10 06:08
>> A friend of mine had her clarinet oiled, and it completely
>> ruined the intonation. Many of the notes became sharp.
Did it have any other repair in addition to oiling? If it was cleaned, maybe before there was a layer of dirt in the bore which made it flatter, or dirt in tone holes (especially in the bottom) which can easily make notes flat. Or maybe venting of the keys was changed (possibly for the better) which makes some notes play sharper. Many possibilities.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-10 08:59
"Some people however do not want to put anything unnatural to the wood itself on it. I guess the "no brainer" is that if you want to replace lost oil with the exact same oil lost then Grenadilla oil fills the bill. If the natural oil balance in the wood is conserved with the same oil then there may be no argument about oiling your instrument versus not oiling it - if you believe as many do that it helps maintain moisture content, dimensional stability, and acoustic properties."
Omar,
I am not sure about your answer. Maybe I phrased my question improperly, or maybe I am reading your answer improperly.
My question is about the Grenadilla oil vs. other kinds of plant oils.
Is it possible that some oils (or other wood treatment) would cause a reaction in the wood itself that would make it stronger than it was before? Hypothetical example- All kinds of wood have natural hardness, but adding some particular ingredient (in this case oil) will "cure" it and make it harder than it was before you added that ingredient.
This is why I am having trouble with the "no brainer" idea.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-11-10 14:55
(Disclaimer - as above)
Wood treatments, primarily plant derived oil formulations have been used for centuries - first by caretakers of wooden artifacts in museums, cathedrals, other historic sites, etc. and then later in a more scientific way by museum curators - to preserve and protect wooden artifacts. With much research a number of common threads and types of oils have been documented for these uses. I am not sure that they change the structure of the wood, e.g. makes it harder, or merely preserve the existing structure of wood against structural deterioration or outside forces or elements that hasten natural deterioration, but the end result is that they are proven to work. There is no documented mechanism for the preservation effect.
The other side to using any plant oil added to wood is that they have special properties (imbued by Nature especially for plant oils - not so for petroleum products or animal fats and oils) which tightly bind a layer of water (layer of hydration) and buffer the water balance to maintain structural integrity in wood (additional layers of water are less tightly bound and are more easily added or removed from an energy point of view). Wood structure is a complex balance of structural elements which function better in a certain hydrated state than they do when dehydrated. Conversely, they function less well (swelling) when they become over hydrated. Maintaining a proper water balance, and also the contributing oil balance, in wood is therefore a function of both the water and oil contents of woods such as Grenadilla. Other woods without high oil content have different mechanisms at work - too lengthy to describe here.
Does natural Grenadilla oil function better as a water buffering agent or preservation product than other plant derived plant oil formulations - too early to tell? My oil formulation has been around for 10 years and Grenad-Oil for sale for a little over a year !! My own experimentation indicates that they are comparable but you can only approximate results of what amounts to a long term chronological end point. Grenadilla oil does have a unique composition which is pretty radically different (in terms of fatty acid composition) than most plant oils. If this unique composition adds anything in terms of interacting with the structural components of Grenadilla wood it is not known.
Unfortunately there are too many myths and old wife's tales still floating around the woodwind community that scare people away from oiling their instruments at all or from using plant oils other than the natural oil found in the wood. I believe that current scientific data suggest that maintaining a proper oil concentration and wood hydration is best for all aspects of woodwind instruments form (structural elements) and function.
So, there is a fear factor involved in oiling your instrument and your choice of oil, if you intend to oil, may be based on historical precedent of using certain plant derived oils or oil formulations - proven by documented results on other wood artifacts, or with a little more peace of mind in just replacing and using the natural oil found in the wood (the "no brainer" is not having to consider using anything "foreign" added to the wood - just replacing the same oil with like oil). As noted it is too early to tell if Grenadilla oil has the same preservation qualities as other plant oils used historically.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsproducts.com
Post Edited (2008-11-10 17:25)
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-11-14 21:04
When I lived in chicago I took my instruments to Bill Brannen. He adivised oiling the bore when it look like it needed it. That's subjective I know but none the less he knows his stuff. Also he recommended Holton bore oil as he thought it is the lightest weight and thus didn't have any negative effects on the wood. This advice has served me well for quite a long time in the upper mid-west
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Author: Wes
Date: 2008-11-15 05:38
Many years ago, I was advised to use linseed oil on my oboe. So I took it apart and oiled it, wiping it out the next day. Upon assembly, it worked ok but was the deadest sounding Loree oboe I've ever heard. After a week, it returned to it's former resonance. This makes a statement about the sound performance of the material of the instrument, contrary to some theorists. Obviously, the oil had to dry for a while. Allmond oil used at later times worked fine with no drying time needed. In clement southern California, I only oil clarinets and oboes when they are overhauled or when completely disassembled. Good luck!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-15 09:58
The black woods that clarinets are usually made from are very dense and as such neither lose nor absorb oils to a large degree. Of all the oils that have been used over the years the linseed oils are probably the worst since they mostly lay on the surface and become gummy before they cure....if they cure. In addition any swab type material used can ignite spontaneously if left laying around. I learned this once years ago when a rag containing linseed oil got extremely warm in my pants pocket. IF one uses linseed oil on any wood bore it should be used very sparingly and then the bore should be "burnished" using an appropriate "rag" or other suitable soft material which should then be safely discarded. I prefer Tung oil over linseed oil for most wood treatments but don't use either one on clarinet bores at the present time.The above is based on my personal experience.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-15 11:59
So, using linseed oil one could actually incorporate pyrotechnics into the performance???
![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-11-15 13:24
If you've never experienced a linseed oil rag ignite spontaneously you haven't lived. But I do appreciate the humour...lol.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-11-18 00:01
Bob,
Was that purified linseed oil, such as used by artists in mixing paints?
Or was that the kind of linseed oil that is used for finishing wood?
I have been using purified linseed oil, and do use a rag to get the excess off. I have noticed one kind that I used would kind of set up, causing the rag I used to become stiff. The kind I am using now doesn't seem to set up like that.
Even with the first kind, I didn't notice the oil getting gummy on the instrument or excessively "laying on the surface."
Where do you get tung oil?
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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