 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-08 19:49
Hi
I'm new, and this is my first post, and I'm completely new to clarinets, so please forgive my ignorance.
I'm looking for information on clarinet construction, as I am considering building one for my wife as an anniversary gift. (don't worry I'll have a backup in case it all goes pear shaped). Anyway I'm not new to instrument building as I build guitars (which is what I play). But I am completely new to clarinets, and so far have drawn an almost complete blank on finding any info.
A couple of points of note.
My wife has 2 Bb clarinets (no idea if they are good or not), so I was hoping to build one in C, but if I can't find any decent info I'll default to Bb, cause at least I can take measurments off them.
Our anniversary is in about 9 months so I've got alot to learn in a small time.
and finally, my wife doesn't play alot. and certainly not in an orchestra, so I was thinking this could be a more decorative peice. I'm hoping this will free me up to use some non traditional materials, and make it a little ornate. Problem is I still want it to toot, when required, so I was thinking of reinforcing the bore with a polished carbon fibre cylinder (limiting me to a cylindrical bore), and using walnut, tulip wood, or olive ideally (cause she likes it), but that may to many stability problems and crack.
My brother can do the keywork as he's a metalworker, so I'll also be customising that within reason.
So if anyone knows of any good reasources, I'd appreciate it emmensly, and oh, feel free to say it's a stupid idea if it is, like I said I'm new to clarinets, so I've got no idea how they operate.
Thanks in advance.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2008-10-08 21:01
Sounds like an interesting and daunting project! I have a book in my library called "The Amateur Wind Instrument Maker" by Trevor Robinson published in 1973 by University of Massachusetts Press, Amherst, MA
Most of it is about making your own recorder, etc. but there is a short
chapter with measured drawings for making a simple 2 keyed clarinet that
provides for a cylindrical bore.
This might be a more reasonable project to start with and would have some
historical interest as the author says it is based on an early Denner
design.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-10-08 23:15
Wow, great timing...
In the last year, my wife built a dulcimer and my oldest daughter built a violin. I was feeling kind of left out, never having made my own clarinet.
It is very motivating to have this topic bubble up right now!
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-09 08:07
Thanks for the replies everyone, I shall check out it all out.
It's good to hear Benades book includes construction resources, i was under the impression that most of his books was on the theory of wood wind acoustical physics.
Mike, one thing I've found (after a whole 2 nights of research, lots more needed), is info on clarinets is no where near as widespread as other instruments. I've got an almost Identical thread running over at the mimf forum, (a virtual one stop shop for stringed instrument builders). you should have a look, not much info on clarinets, but plenty on whistles, flutes and the like, it's a great place, for general instrument building techniques.
I have managed using the maths on stephen fox's site to create a spreadsheet of all the frequencies & acoustical lengths of each note on a Bb clarinet, and in turn translated that to a C clarinet. Don't no if it's correct, So I'm going to email him to check. I know that may a bit cheeky, but in the abscence of measured drawings, and autocad models, it seems clear that alot of work will be needed to get things working. If I can confirm it's right, i'll post it on over to you.
Now, I've got to go and learn what all those buttons on a clarinet do! doh! Why can't she just play guitar, uke, or bass, something easy like that.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-09 13:19
The acoustics will be a challenge if you have never played clarinet, but I think the biggest difficulty will be making keys. If you have some mechanical/soldering training or experience, though, it may not be that hard. I have been doing work on clarinet for a few years and I just started making keys last year.
One of the things that makes ethnic flutes and recorders easy as "make it yourself" instruments is that they have few or no moving parts. Clarinet, being built on the 12th to extend range, requires keys to fill in the notes between the registers for even the simplest systems.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2008-10-10 07:59
Hi Kettlefish,
The first rule of clarinet making is that you don't have to worry about the strings ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
It may be interesting to take a look at the Hanson Clarinets website for inspiriation www.hansonclarinets.com. It may give you some hints.
Disclaimer - I have nothing to do with Hanson, and have no knowledge of how good their products are - I only know of their existence.
Edited to correct spelling mistakes
Post Edited (2008-10-10 08:03)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2008-10-10 14:15
Hello Kettlefish
I'd like to talk you out of this.
Making clarinet is one of the most difficult thing in the world,
unless you 're talking about clarinet shaped toy which makes
a few odd pitched squeaks.
How many indivisuals are making clarinet?
As far as I know, there is only one,Guy Chadach in USA.
You have to spend tens of thousand dollars for the equipments alone,
then you have learn how to use each of them.
Cost of the reamers for the inside bore will cost you several thousand dollars,if you know how and where to order.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-10-10 15:16
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> ...
But to have fun, a 2 key - or no key - clarinet is not all that hard to make. It might be out of tune, but that's part of the fun - you get to try & correct it
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-10-10 16:15
If wood is too daunting, I would suggest using a vegetable-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWbj7FYEi3M
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-10-10 16:18
If wood is too daunting, I would suggest using a vegetable-
<www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWbj7FYEi3M>
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-11 21:16
Vin that carrot is fantastic!!
Gonna have to give that a go with the kids.
anyway. I'm not worried about the wood work, I've examined a couple of clarinets, and it's well within the sphere of my ability, and I'm already tooled up for it all.
I've been speaking to my brother, and we disected the keywork, on a Bb. Although it seems complex at first, it becomes clear once it's in bits. Theres a couple of potential difficulties with some of the shapes, but I think he'll be able to manage it.
The bit I'm really concerned with is the lack of dimensions out there. It really seems like this is a secret art, that nobody speaks, completely unlike other instruments where theres load of stuff. I've managed to work out the required frequencies and acoustical lengths, but as yet have no idea how that translates to hole placement. Obviously I can get round that by doing a Bb and just measuring her existing ones, but I like to make things hard, so, I'll keep trying to figure out the dimensions of a C.
Thanks for all your input so far, keep it coming every little bit helps. I'll be checking all the links you've mentioned tonight. Oh, and can you post pics here, I'll keep everyone updated with pics if poss as I progress, which won't be for a while yet of course. I want to get measured drawings done by the end of this year, and I'll start turning wood next.
Thanks
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-10-11 22:47
Koo Young Chung is right. Making a Boehm clarinet is hugely difficult.
The problem is not the keywork. The problem is not the wood turning. The problem is not even drilling the holes in the right place.
The problem is the bore. The Boehm clarinet does not, whatever the textbooks may say. have a cylindrical bore. The shape of the bore is complicated, and must be cut with a very high degree of precision, using a wood (or synthetic material) that will maintain its stability."Reinforcing the bore with a polished carbon fibre cylinder" is not going to achieve acceptable results.
There is a good reason that the clarinet was not invented until 1700, and the Boehm clarinet took another 140 years. It is really really really really really difficult to build an instrument that is acceptably in tune.
Please do not embarrass your wife by giving her something unplayable. And don't give her a "decorative" instrument. Would you want a "decorative" car (that wouldn't actually go anywhere) or a "decorative" chisel (lovely handle, blade made of pewter) or a "decorative" house (beautiful brickwork, roof made of cardboard).....
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-12 01:45
If you really want to do this project I think it would be best to look online for some simple 17th C-early 18th C clarinets and try to make one of those.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-12 05:41
I completely disagree with those you recommend you don't do this. I think even if the instrument ends up just for decoration it's possibly the best gift you can get. Some people don't prefer practical gifts.
I also don't agree with:
>> The problem is not the keywork. The problem is not the wood turning.
>> The problem is not even drilling the holes in the right place.
>> The problem is the bore. The shape of the bore is complicated....
As far as I know there are clarinets with a completely cylindrical bore, or at least used to be. Also, it is not true that the poly-cylindrical bore clarinets "must be cut with a very high degree of precision" to be good. Maybe some companies are very percise, but some are definitely not.
If you do manage to do all the posts and keys accurately, it might be a good idea to consult a GOOD clarinet repairer, maybe even before. Though I can't say that skygardener's idea of making a simpler system clarinet is a bad one.
If you want help measuring a C clarinet I can try to help you.
Post Edited (2008-10-12 05:42)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-10-12 15:45
"Making a Boehm clarinet is hugely difficult."
Maybe for most of us but if you read this person's post it does appear that he has considereable experience and talent. Why pre-judge his ability?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-13 08:24
hi everyone
Thanks for your replies and support. Firstly I didn't want to start an argument about how hard it is to make a clarient so appologies if the thread has become slightly scewed by that.
koo young chung and norberttheparrot. Thanks for your concern, and pointing out the difficulty that my lie ahead. I agree that the last thing I want to do is make something unplayable. I fully intend the instrument to be useable. It just don't have to stand up to the rigors of a pro clarient player in a travellng orchestra practicing 3 to 5 times a week, putting on various performances. What is does have to do is look fantastic, play reasonably, and remain stable.
clarnibass, thanks for your offer to help with C measurments. That's great. What I think maybe a good idea, is if I work through the maths and produce a set of measurments which you could check to see if they are correct. That way I'll know if I've got a handle on the maths involved, and I don't want to impose too much, so that way if you have a C you could just quickly check my measurments, and say yes that's right or no it's not.
I have found a college over here in the UK which teaches woodwind construction/repair. Unfortunately I don't have the time to attend a 2/3 year course, but in the 2nd year students have to construct a full boehm clarinet from raw materials, and they have a student forum, so I've asked if I can join that, fingers crossed. what worries me slightly though is that it seems to be down at the moment.
Couple of last points (I know I tend to write long posts, sorry bout that), When I first posted this topic, I was completely new (still am) but I've learned a fair bit about them already, and so far none of what I've learned is insumountable. But it does seem that cylindrical bores = unhappy clarinet players. Infact there seems to be huge discussions about various bore types and the benefits they provide. Theres a few options to milling the bore, now I just need to figure out dimensions for it. To that end I've ordered a couple of books. Also I'll be trying to check the German museum for the radiographs they have of various bores.
lastly (phew) Clarnibass is right about manufacturing techniques. Multi-thousand pound/dollar CNC tools are about accurate repeatability. Instrument makers have made various instruments throughout the years with nothing more than hand tools. For example most mass guitars manufacterers cut necks with a CNC mill, but small custom builders tend to carve by hand, (personally I think it lends something to the soul of the instrument, not sure what, but theres nothing quite like those tiny imperceivable imperfections which give an instrument character). What does worry me, is that the action, can influence intonation by all accounts, and I have yet to find tolerances for this.
Thanks
Sorry about the huge post.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-10-14 05:18
Kettle,
Any declarative sentence on this BBD is bound to start an argument.
Don't be concerned.
B.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-14 06:24
Kettlefish, you can email me. Click on my user name for my email address.
Nitai
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-10-14 16:03
i personally would find an old c clarinet and restore it using your tools that you are all geared up for. it's easier to improve the model then to start one from the ground up.
good luck on your project. oh and take lots of pictures as you progress. she'll be impressed.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2008-10-15 01:05
I respect your desire to build your own,but I still don't understand that you want to build your CLARINET.
You have to spend thousand of $ just to buy counter-sink tools.
And it won't work first time no matter how talented you are.
I'm a professional violin maker and I wouldn't say same things if you want to try to make your first violin,you'll have 1,000 times better luck that it'll come out O.K. than a clarinet.
Sorry about my pessimism, but I don't want to see you get stuck after spending $10,000.
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-10-15 01:17
Here's something that might be of more interest to you than I: It's a word document on the physics of the cylindrical and polycylindrical bore types. If you drop me an email, I'll send it right along.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-10-15 03:36
I would suggest you somehow get ahold of Bill McColl (retired prof at Univ of Washington).
He has built wonderful classical period clarinets himself that are every bit as good as originals.
Of course, these are not modern instruments, but he would be able to help you get started and tell you what tools you need.
Obviously there are people like Rossi and the Canadian duo that are making clarinets by hand. It can be done though it must be time consuming.
If I had the woodworking skills, I would certainly try.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-10-15 05:14
I have a book somewhere with instructions/plans etc to make a clarinet that is based on the classical 5 key design, but uses a modern mouthpiece and plays in C. I don't know what workshop equipment you have access to, but this doesn't require anything other than what is in your average high school workshop.
let me know if you want the plans/instructions and i can copy them for you- I'll hunt for the book later so I quote the author etc. It is a book designed to be used in High schools and contains plans etc for a number of different instruments.
dn
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-15 09:39
John-
Noone has asked so I will- what kind of tools and machines do you have?
The essential is a metal lathe and a mill.
-
I think a good idea would be to start by overhauling an old clarinet and make a few new keys and screws for it. This will give you an idea of time/tool useage, etc.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-10-15 10:24
I have very little knowledge of the acoustics etc of the clarinet but one thing that puzzles me is kettlefish's wariness of the cylindrical bore - I had always understood that this was one of the essential distinguishing features of the clarinet and if it didn't have a cylindrical bore, it wasn't a clarinet. If memory serves, doesn't this have something to do with overblowing the twelfth?
Vanessa.
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-15 16:33
Hey everyone.
Once again thanks for the help. Clarnibass I'll mail you some dimensions as soon as I get it figured if that's OK. And thanks to everyone who has reasources I can borrow, it's very much appreciated.
Koo Yung Chung, don't worry about being pesimistic, like I say this is my first foray into the world of woodwind, and any advice is welcome, I'm gonna try a few test peices and if it proves to be too difficult I'll knock it on the head, I've got no intention of spending thousands.
Skygardener. fair question. briefly, metal lathe (brothers ), Wood lathe (mine), table saw, drill press, band saw, several routers and table, bench grinder, various planes, scrapers, sanding, marking and measurment, hand tools etc. Brother has metal working gear, although I couldn't tell you what exactly, and I have access to our community wood shop (about 5 mins from my house and free 3 days a week) who have drill/mill, thicknesser, jointer, moticer, radial drill press, as well as everything I've got at home, couple of lathes, table saw etc, and loads more planes, scrapers, hand tools etc. I also have HVLP spray system at home although booth has to be errected when needed, and brother has loads of air powered stuff, including spray equipmet. I'll almost certainly need to buy a few bits, and make a load of jigs.
Nessiel, I originally thought clarinet bores were cylindrical, and it would be alot easier if this were the case. Unfortunately, they arn't apparently. A completely cylindrical bore will have tuning problems. So some have conical bores, some have polycylindrical, which vary along the length.
toodle
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-15 17:49
There is a college there in the UK that actually offers a 3-year program in making and repairing woodwind instruments. Supposedly, once you have finished the course you will have built your own Boehm system clarinet from scratch. The course itself may be more investment of time than you want to put in, but I'll bet you can purchase course materials, textbooks, or the like from their campus bookstore that would be helpful to you.
Here's the website:
http://woodwindcourse.co.uk/
By the way, German clarinets (Oehler and "Reformed Boehm") typically have cylindrical bores, not polycylindrical bores like Buffets and other Buffet-derived Boehm system clarinets. Personally, I really like the sound of the German clarinets (even though I play French clarinets).
Post Edited (2008-10-15 23:23)
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-10-16 01:53
Here's something else: a complete list of Benades' writings, and it looks like there's a guy you can contact to get ahold of them or at least most of them. http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/writings/58to69.html Some are even viewable as PDFs.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-16 05:57
clariknight wrote:
> Here's something else: a complete list of Benades' writings,
> and it looks like there's a guy you can contact to get ahold of
> them or at least most of them.
> http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/writings/58to69.html Some
> are even viewable as PDFs.
Very cool!! Thanks for posting this!
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-16 10:19
Thanks, all great stuff everyone.
mrn, german clarinets have cylindrical bores?. OK so this begs the question, which do most people prefer the sound of, german or french? I know german are supposed to be richer and darker, but as I've never actually heard them (as far as I know) so I have no reference. plus I think they tend to have larger bores as well.
So over to you guys, what do you prefer or what do you think sound better german or french, regardless of intonation and tuning issues?
I'll check other threads, later as I'm on my way out to see if this has been discussed before so sorry if it has, and sorry about taking it off topic, if anyone objects I'll start a new thread on it.
toodle
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-10-17 03:13
Kettlefish,
With all of your effort in this endeavor, you might consider making a "Clarinet Kit" to sell, even if it is a much more simplified version for ease of building. There is definitely something to be said for learning more about an instrument via construction. My daughter learned quite a bit building a violin from a kit. It is certainly not a high-end masterpiece, but it is decent...and will likely be passed on to her kids someday, along with stories and memories.
I'd guess that you would have the market cornered...as far as I know, nobody makes a 'clarinet kit'. And there must be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people around the world who have played clarinet at one point or another. Consider it...I'd buy one!
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-17 05:39
Probably most of the world (including most of us in the English-speaking world) play on French-style clarinets (including me), but the German clarinet has its fans, including among players who don't play German system. Though I play on a French instrument, I tend to really like the German sound, for instance. They do make a German-bore clarinet with a French-style fingering system, called a "Reformed Boehm" system clarinet--the only problem with those from my perspective is that they cost a fortune. Instead, I play on a really dark-sounding mouthpiece with my Buffet, and that makes me happy.
There are some American orchestral players who now play on German (Oehler system) clarinets, so you might say the German instruments are getting to be trendier. (although this is by no means a widespread phenomenon) Michele Zhukovsky of the LA Philharmonic plays one. And the clarinet section of the Chicago Symphony switches between German and French instruments depending on what they're playing.
If I were building an instrument (especially for the first time), I might go with the German style bore, but with French style keywork (which I think would be both simpler to fabricate and in most cases to play), like the "Reformed Boehm" instruments that Wurlitzer (a German company) makes. Not that I know anything about building woodwinds, but purely from a fabrication standpoint, it would seem to me that that would be the simplest and possibly the most satisfactory design. (Although somebody more knowledgable than I am may have good reason to disagree with me on this--I won't get my feelings hurt if they do.)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-17 11:58
"My brother can do the keywork as he's a metalworker, so I'll also be customising that within reason."
He must have a lot of time on his hands. I reckon you are asking him to do about 30 times as much work as you are. Is he THAT keen?
BTW, a customer once asked me how many parts there were in a clarinet, to use as a quiz question. Difficult to answer, but this is what I gave him:
GORDON PALMER
WOODWIND REPAIR SPECIALIST
1 Aramutu Rd
Hillsborough
Auckland
New Zealand
Ph/Fax. (64) 9 625-9656.
MUSICAL INSTRUMENT COMPONENTS
CLARINET (Based on Yamaha student model C100 - 1999)
Mouthpiece, ligature, reed cap 6
Barrel, body, rings, metal tone holes 11
Tenon corks 4
Posts (incl. body screws) & pivot screws/rods:
Upper section (incl key guide.) 33
Lower section (incl thumb rest) 34
Springs & spring screws 24
Keys & levers (see i. below) 21
Pads (see ii below) 17
Key & thumb rest 'corks' & linkage silencers 24
Running Total: 174
i. To include key/post/ligature components
(assuming rings are integral with ring arms) add 81
ii. To include pad components (assuming double
membrane and one cork pad) add 48
Running Total: 303
To include bonding agents add the following:
Key 'cork' & linkage silencer adhesion 23
Pad membrane adhesion 32
Pad adhesion to key cups 17
Tenon cork adhesion 8
Body ring adhesion (assume bell ring is not glued) 4
Silver solder layers for key & lig. manufacture 81
Running Total: 468
To include Electroplating:
Keys 21
Posts 35
Rings, ligature, screws, guide, rest, etc 19
Running Total: 543
Note: The basic figure of 174 could vary by up to about 10 for different models. The larger figures could vary more substantially.
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Author: Kettlefish
Date: 2008-10-17 19:46
He must have a lot of time on his hands. I reckon you are asking him to do about 30 times as much work as you are. Is he THAT keen?
LOL :-)
it's not that he's got alot of time as such, but rather he does nothing with his spare time (literally), lives with parents, watches TV, play's on the computer etc. He has the garage setup for metal work, but he won't be doing it alone, I shall be helping in anyway I can, I don't know alot about metal, so I may just be holding things, but it's all part of the experience. and I might learn a few things.
oh and thanks for the parts breakdown.
thanks mrn, I shall look into the reformed boehm, anything that simplifies the task is great. And Mike, it's sounds like a good idea, but I'm not setup for replication on that standard. But someone should do it, theres lots of instruments that are sold in kits, why not clarinets? Although theres a company in the UK that sells blanks in african blackwood.
toodle
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-10-17 20:12
Personally, although I play French style clarinets, I like the sound of German clarinets better. (For some ideas, listen to Sabine Meyer and Martin Frost). And, it will simplify the process for you won't have to measure out the polycylindrical bore, which I can only imagine must be a painstakingly long and difficult process.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-10-17 20:31
"I like the sound of German clarinets better. (For some ideas, listen to Sabine Meyer and Martin Frost)"
Excellent idea. Sabine Meyer is a leading exponent of the German clarinet, and Martin Fröst is a leading exponent of the French clarinet. Compare and contrast.
I assume that's what you meant - though your post might be read quite differently.
.............
On a different tack, just how cylindrical are the bores of German and Reform-Boehm clarinets? Certainly the (approximately-)cylindrical section is longer than that of Boehm clarinets; the bore starts to expand rapidly only a short distance above the bell.
But that isn't the same as saying that the main part of the bore is *exactly* cylindrical. Does anyone know?
............
And a bit of pedantry. "construct a full boehm clarinet"
No. They construct a Boehm clarinet. A Full Boehm clarinet is more complicated than a Boehm clarinet, and rarely seen these days. The terminology is horribly confusing, but we're stuck with it.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-17 22:40
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> "I like the sound of German clarinets better. (For some ideas,
> listen to Sabine Meyer and Martin Frost)"
>
> Excellent idea. Sabine Meyer is a leading exponent of the
> German clarinet, and Martin Fröst is a leading exponent of the
> French clarinet. Compare and contrast.
That's true if you're talking about the instruments they play on. Fröst (who himself is Swedish) plays on a French clarinet (Buffet) and Sabine Meyer plays a German (Oehler) clarinet (Wurlitzer, I think).
However . . . . if you're talking about style/training, both of them studied with the same teacher in Germany (Hans Deinzer) and have similarly high-energy playing styles.
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