 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-06-05 00:42
I was just looking at my inbox and I received an email from a college professor in my state who wishes me to join his Music program next year. Honestly, I love music. I love to perform, teach it, listen to it. I love everything but on aspect---the money. With the economy descending, and gas prices ascending, I'm stuck between two difficult choices. I'd love to earn a degree in performance or education as Music is my passion. As of late, I have been very interested in pursuing a career as a lawyer. I love political science and debate and I'm the captain of our debate team. So my question boils down to this, how practical is it to do a double major? Or how practical is it to go to law school if one majored in music performance/education? I forgot to mention that the instructor is a graduate of Manhattan like my previous teacher so I am expecting good things and the professor who emailed me has his D.M from USC and has had studies with Yehuda.
A little academic background on me
I'm a rising senior, attending NC Governor's School for Clarinet, and I have made All State which I don't see as much of an accomplishment anymore.
My GPA is well over >4.0, I have many extracurriculars, scored a 29 on the ACT SAT is pending as I have it this Saturday.
Post Edited (2008-06-05 01:22)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2008-06-05 00:44
How important is it for you to actually do music as your job?
Is there a way you can combine your interests in both fields?
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-05 00:59
Go to law school and study with the best teacher you can while in school. Music degrees for most add up to a bunch of debt. You don't need a degree to perform. Now if you want to be a college teacher then you will need the degrees. Even so, I would get a BA is something else....you can always do an MM in music if you continue to improve your playing.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-06-05 01:09
After paying off student loans, I've never met a lawyer who was struggling financially.
However, I've met far too many musicians who continually can't pay their rent or have a steady source of income...GBK
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-06-05 01:10
Well, I'd love to get a gig playing one day or even teach on the side. Regardless I wanna improve on playing. I don't wanna teach at high schools and I know the chance of getting a college position is slim. I love playing but what intrigues me is the fact that I could grow in those 4 years and I could end up being some real monster or something. I've done research and for law school you're recommended to have good writing/analytical skills and I feel like I possess those very well. I'm also looking into a minor in Political Science.
And the reason why law intrigues me is the fact that I like to argue, I like politics, etc, and the money =]
Post Edited (2008-06-05 01:11)
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-05 01:23
I improved more in the first 2 years after college than the whole time I was in college. Majoring in music does not mean you just play your clarinet all day. You do just as much class work as other majors plus rehearsals, lessons, studio class, going to friends recitals etc.
All you need to be a monster is a great teacher and time to focus on your playing. You can always do a music festival in the summer to get ensemble experience and you can always survey a theory class and or history class so you have some basic knowledge. Becoming a really great player takes a ton of focus on your playing and often school can get in the way of that. It did for me. This isn't to say that majoring in music does not have a positive effect on you because it will, but in the end, your practice time and teacher are the only thing that really matters.
And whatever you do, don't listen to the people who say it's good to go to school for networking because that is BS. What good is networking with fellow students if none of them are going to have any gigs to give you for 20 years or so? What are you going to do in the meantime to pay rent? And teachers have contacts? Also BS. This isn't the 40's or 50's. Your teacher can't call George Szell and tell him how great you are and to give you a position in an orchestra. A teacher getting you into Aspen for the summer while neat, is not a job.
Ok, enough of my rant.
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Author: lj
Date: 2008-06-05 02:12
There isn't one right answer to your question. Gather information, and go with what is right for you, not for anyone else.
Do you have to declare a major immediately? Typically, you have some time after beginning undergraduate studies before you have to pin down your intentions. Law schools typically accept solid students from a broad spectrum of undergraduate majors, so majoring in music doesn't preclude law school admission, especially if you double major, minor, or judiciously choose electives that support future legal studies.
For what it's worth, I *have* known lawyers who, for a variety of reasons (not excepting student loan debt) have struggled with money, and I have known many people who don't earn much but who are very happy with their chosen professions and the lives they've built. Sometimes the money associated with lucrative professions is used to escape from the horror of the job--if the job isn't horrible, you don't need nearly as much money. :-)
Best wishes. Do what you love.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2008-06-05 02:28
Is what you want to do possible? Yes. I have a niece who just graduated from an Ivy League law school and who majored in fine arts (acting) as an undergraduate. Actors have a tougher time getting work than musicians. She worked a few years, mostly doing proofreading at night for a law firm, before going to law school.
Remember that law schools are graduate schools; you are interested in studying music in undergraduate studies. Since you will not be looking for a job that requires a music degree, whether or not your undergraduate degree is in music is not important. Check with a few law schools and find out what courses they would be looking for, and make sure you take them in addition to your music.
Once you start working in law, especially at a law firm, don't worry about performing for a few years. Making your quota of billable hours will occupy an unreasonable portion of your time. But I've known of a number of lawyers who performed music gigs after they were settled in their law career.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-05 02:32
If you can afford it, go for it. The double major is a good idea in terms of securing a future. My teacher told me that even though I'm dead set on majoring in performance, i need to have a back-up plan so I can afford to live. Playing clarinet alone isn't cheap, on top of that, most of the major music centers in the US (cities I mean) are in areas with high costs of living. I'm re-considering just majoring in performance now.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-06-05 03:23
Go to law school and enjoy the financial security a successfull practice can provide. And the more you will be able to enjoy a secondary career as a performing musician "on the side". BTW, no audition committee will ever hire you because you have a music degree. All you need to do is be able to play and that can be learned from a private teacher and lots of practice.
One of my good local friends is a lawyer who does a lot of wedding ceremonies.....and later plays trombone for their wedding reception. And for the record, he makes a lot more $$ for the short wedding ceremony than the three hour gig with our combo.
Post Edited (2008-06-06 18:26)
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Author: Bill G
Date: 2008-06-05 03:42
Perhaps I can supply siome perspective on this. I certainly understand the dilemma. I have practiced law for more than 57 years: Martindale -Hubbell rating of AV for about 45 years; American Academy of Trial Lawyers over 25years; Best Lawyers in America over 15 years. Yet I have played throughout that time as a weekend professional, primarily in dance bands and jazz shows, with circuses, ice shows, Bob Hope, Red Skelton, Floyd Cramer, Four Seasons,etc., community symphony orchestra. You name it, and I didn't take private lessons until about 4 years ago. I'm still having fun and enrichment in both law and music. I sang in Carnegie Hall last week, in a large chorus with a large orchestra, conducted by John Rutter, last week--after playing a pure jazz gig the day I left for New York.
You can get into law school with any sort of undergraduate degree. I have known many with liberal arts backgrounds who did not suffer and handicap as lawyers, and I don't know many lawyers who also are active in music who would change to a career in music if they started over.
This not to say that there is any greater calling than music. It's just a realistic look at the difficulties and uncertainties confronting a person needing to look down the road for a remaining lifetime. I have many extremely gifted musicians who regretted their choice. On the other hand there are many successful lawyers who are also gifted musicians (much more gifted than I) who find enough quality musical outlets on a hobby or part-time basis to have the best of both worlds.
My advice: go with music in undergrad studies if your instincts compel it; but keep yourself an alternative that allows you to keep your options open. Best wishes!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-05 04:07
My daughter just received her law degree from George Town Univ. after receiving her masters in public policy from Harvard and her Bachelors from Middlebury College in theatre and english. You don’t have to do your undergraduate degree in law. With that said, I’ve had several double degree majors at Peabody taking another degree at Hopkins, Peabody is associated with Hopkins. It is not easy to find the time to practice but it depends on the student. One of my double degree majors was a computer science major and was the principal clarinet in the top orchestra, he was a fantastic clarinetist but got a job in computer science and does not play anymore, a shame. Other double majors of mine have kept it up but not as pros. My advise is to follow you heart because if you don’t you will always regret not trying. Just keep in mind that you can make a much better living as a lawyer then a musician, assuming you’re successful at it. That doesn’t mean you will enjoy your life more. I love what I do and make a decent living, my daughter, engaged to another lawyer, will probably make a lot me than me, I just hope she is as happy as I am with my career. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: William Hughes ★2017
Date: 2008-06-05 13:07
It cannot be said enough: There is no one "right" undergraduate major to prepare for law school. Many of the best of my classmates were science and engineering majors. The only caveat is that you develop your analytical thinking and oral and written communication skills. An undergraduate "pre-law" program may help you decide whether you want to go to law school, but it won't do much to prepare you or enhance you chances of acceptance. Best of luck in your decision.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-05 15:25
You can major in anything and go to medical school, as long as you take organic chemistry and a few other courses....You can major in anything, take anything you want, and go to law school. That's the beauty of it.
I majored in engineering, then went to law school. In some ways, engineering is as far removed from law as possible (no writing, no argumentation or debate, and there's usually only one right answer to every question--in law school, there are no "right" answers...usually). One of my classmates was a musicologist--she made law review.
The thing about the legal profession is that there is not just one set of skills you need or will use to practice law. Everyone comes into law school with different strengths and comes out with different strengths. Trial lawyers are a different breed than tax lawyers, who are a different breed than patent lawyers, etc.
My suggestion is that if you love music, then major in music and then go to law school. If you're really unsure, then double major in something else (like computer science) and/or get teacher certification while you're in college. At least one major-symphony player I'm familiar with worked for a time as a high school band director, and the ranks of dissatisfied lawyers who left law to go into teaching are legion.
The one big exception to all this is if you want to practice patent law--because in that case, you need to major in a natural science (physics is good) or engineering field (or have taken equivalent coursework) to become licensed as a patent attorney or patent agent (which is a separate process from regular attorney licensure).
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Author: Joel K.
Date: 2008-06-05 18:19
I work with a lawyer who is also a fine pianist and majored in music at UC Berkeley. She got her law degree at Harvard.
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2008-06-05 18:54
SVClarinet09,
I would say attend to the practical (get a law degree so you can make good money), and nurture music making as a life long hobby.
Life is much easier and more fun when you have enough money to meet the needs of your imagination.
I've known many artists and musicians, who after a decade or so of trying to pursue their passion, ended up changing careers to finally make a living.
And I know high earning professionals who can afford expensive musical instruments that "Professionals" can only dream of.
I used to be an artist and struggled to make a living. Often I could only buy reeds when I got a "windfall" like $50 for my birthday.
But after about a decade of artistic impoverishment, I got an Ivy League MBA. Now I have a whole studio in my loft dedicated to music. And I even though I don't play piano I bought a Bösendorfer Imperial
pianohttp://www.boesendorfer.com/index.php?menu=8&lang=en
just so my frequent European guests can have a beautiful piano to play when we play Brahms.
The way you describe your situation is that you could probably love practicing law and playing piano. And this is advice I've heard from professional musicians: "Make music your career only if there is nothing else you can imagine yourself doing."
Good luck,
Bartmann
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-06-05 20:45
SVClarinet09-
There are four things to think about: what it's like in music school and law school, and what it's like to be a musician and a lawyer. From personal experience, I can tell you that they're very different.
MUSIC SCHOOL
You obviously have a great love of music. You're obviously also really good. It may seem easy for you to be in the Governor's School and make all-state, but you're one of the very few to accomplish it.
Talent and love of music are the basics that every professional musician needs. Everyone who gets into a conservatory has them, and the conservatory takes this for granted. However, they're not enough to do well. You also need tremendous determination and single-mindedness. You need to be able to put yourself alone in a practice room and grind away until you have the instrument completely mastered. This is some of the hardest work you will every do. You'll also need to master areas of musical knowledge (history, theory) that you may not be particularly interested in. Also, you'll need to learn to play music that's unsympathetic to you (minimalist, serial, rap). In other words, there are areas of musical knowledge that you won't like or be interested in, and becoming a professional involves mastering these, too.
Finally, music school is highly competitive. You'll need to beat out other good people, who are anxious to take advantage of every opportunity, even when it means running over you to get there. You'll need to be a self-starter -- someone who creates opportunities to perform all the time. Nobody will do this for you.
LAW SCHOOL
You must come into law school with a strong love of language and the ability to think logically and in minute detail. In law school, you read similar cases and understand how they're different. It's like slicing a salami paper-thin. You need that sort of nit-picking mind.
And of course you need to be able to argue convincingly and think on your feet.
And you must be a really good writer. Perfect spelling and grammar are only the beginning. You must also write convincingly, in different styles for different audiences -- judges, other lawyers, clients.
Law school is competitive, though less so than a music conservatory. Everything you study can be understood by a good mind. It's just that there's so much of it. I had more fun in law school than in any other period of my life.
MUSIC PROFESSION
When you graduate from music school and set out to make a living, it's assumed that you have love and talent, and also that you have mastered the instrument. You'll also be in one of the most competitive environments that exist. It's no longer enough to be a good, or even very good player. You need to build a network of people who will hire you. This means, first of all, reliability. You must think twice before you take a vacation. If you do, the person next in line will step ahead of you, more or less permanently. You can't afford to be late to a rehearsal, even once. You can't show anger or frustration, even once. It's a zero-tolerance life. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=181955&t=181948, http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=111093&t=110976 and http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=57465&t=57430.
Finally, just as you need to learn subjects in conservatory that don't interest you, you'll need to take any work you can get, even if you don't like the music. That's the difference between being an amateur and a professional. The pro has to do it all.
LEGAL PROFESSION
When you start being a lawyer, the sorts of things you do in law school fade into the background. Making a living depends on attracting clients, who have no law school experience. Your job is not to show the client that you understand his/her legal problem, but that you understand the real-world problem. You ask occasional questions to bring out legally significant facts, but your main job is to show sympathy and confidence that you know how to bring about the result the client wants, always in the real world, and not in some mysterious legal universe.
Legal work is highly competitive, and many lawyers get by by being obnoxious, dishonest, and hitting below the belt. You need a hide as thick as an elephant and a rhinocerous combined.
Law firm work, like music, demands your whole life. I work in a large firm where to get by, you must put in 12 hours a day Monday through Friday and 6 hours a day on weekends.
Oh, yes, you can make a lot of money as a lawyer. But as an ordinary lawyer, it's a constant dogfight. As a high-class lawyer, it's a better, more courteous class of colleagues and clients, but a 24-hour-a-day grind.
The world won't give you a living, no matter what you do, and there's no job where you can do only the things you like, all the time. Enjoy it while you can. There are plenty of musicians who, on the whole, love their life, and plenty of lawyers too, but everything's a compromise once you get out of school.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-06-05 21:52
A very interesting thread here and for me quite autobiographical.
I have degrees in music and an MBA from Univ. of Chicago. I studied with Marcellus and Gigliotti, who for my generation, were some of the top clarinet teachers. I won my first job in the Seattle Symphony at the age of 20, then left 8 years later, to follow my now former wife who had landed a job in the Chicago Symphony.
After five years of partial success freelancing, I went to business school and worked for 8 years in the corporate world for two Fortune 500 companies. I hated it. Not playing music for a livelihood was painful. But the money was good.
In 2004, after being downsized, I decided to pursue my music and develop a consulting practice that would build in the flexibility to accomodate my musical activities. I also teach.
Now 4 years later, I can say I have a fairly nice life, though I also have a partner who works and family help that rounds the corners in dry months. I am lucky and grateful for what I have.
I would say that some of the things to think about are:
1)As above comments have said, a major by itself means little. You have to show analytical abilities and good communication skills. If you can do that, you are ahead of 95% of the pack.
2)Money should not drive your decisions at this point in your life. Stay clear of overwhelming debt, of course, but do not make a choice based on what you may make. Law is hard and young entering lawyers are worked very hard and then asked to leave if they do not book a certain amount of business or make partner.
3)If you want to pursue music, you must put in a great deal of time at an early age. You can go to law school later in life, but you will not be competitive in music if you go later and lose some of the muscle training that must be done early on.
4)Consider a school like University of Michigan that will have a great clarinet program and a great law school. Perhaps you can take an undergrad class that is in the pre-law program. You could audit law classes in your spare time. Do NOT spend the big bucks going to Law School until you know it is right for you.
Best of Luck,
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-06-06 01:42
Thank you for all the encouragement/advice. I've been brushing up on the programs etc. My reason for wanting to major in music is because you know everyone's like follow your dream etc and I feel like I should at least attempt it. I won't lose anything except for money but I have a college fund and scholarships etc and thats the least of my worries right now. I could always do the double major or major/minor because I know I would stay dedicated.
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