 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-04-02 15:24
Harder reed, more closed mouthpiece, longer lay
or
Softer reed, more open mouthpiece, shorter lay.
Which do you guys think is the way to go? Or is the middle way best? (and why?)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-04-02 17:05
Your question is equivalent to asking if you should wear a size 7 shoe or a size 12 without knowing the size of your foot.
There is no one size fits all.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-02 17:28
I wear size 12 and have harder reed with long and close facing.
Works great for me, my students some do, some don't.
I'd say medium facing minimum for classical playing. Short and open is more suited for jazz at best.
You have to try all and see what your mileage is.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-02 17:32
I only wear sports shoes (sneakers) because nothing else is as comfortable. We use Eurpean sizes here so I'm using a reed strength 43, or is this the shoe. Wait, what was the question again...?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-02 18:28
David said it all. The closer tip will yield a more focused sound that is easier to control in all registers with the most consistant timbre. The extreme example of this is the German School of thought and you can reference pretty much any German clarinet player (Leister is the paradigm) to get the idea.
The open mouthpieces will allow for more "flexibility" such as "scoops" and "nya nya" sounds (klezmer) but the sound gets more diffuse, some may even sound bright.
My best guess is that most symphony players use a medium or medium-close facing. Open facings are a boone to jazz players who want more vibrato and or that airy, phoophy sound.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-04-02 20:02
Many symphony and classical players use the Vandoren B40, a medium long but very open mouthpiece (e.g. Carbonare, Cohler,...) and they sound everything but "bright" or "diffuse" unless they decide to.
Similarly players have no problem with the Gershwin opening gliss on a very close, very long lay.
I say it again and insist that there is no way to know which one is best for *you* until *you* play it.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-04-02 20:23
David- You're friends with Ricardo Morales. I wondering what makes you say "medium facing minimal for classical" as Ricardo (and Todd Levy and Jessica Phillips and Tom Martin and others) plays an open mouthpiece? It's also hard for a student to pick which end to choose if their fundamentals are not solid enough. Not that it matters, but I do play a close facing/harder reed myself.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-04-02 21:10
Thanks Vin,
I was just about to bring up the same thing. I really wonder why so many on this board make these "factual" statements/opinions when they are almost always inaccurate.
The fact is, there is no rule that you have to play a closed facing to play classical or an open facing to play Jazz. These "rules" simply do not exist in the real world. I can't think of a more focused, rich, projected, clear sound then that of Ricardo Morales or Todd Levy. This isn't to say their sounds are the same by any stretch but the qualities of their sounds are as "classical" as it gets.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-04-02 21:30
So what mouthpieces do Riccardo and Todd use? I was under the impression that most American players used long and closed facings (but am obviously wrong). In Europe by far the most common mouthpiece is the B40.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-04-02 21:35
"So what mouthpieces do Riccardo and Todd use? I was under the impression that most American players used long and closed facings (but am obviously wrong). In Europe by far the most common mouthpiece is the B40."
Todd uses a B40 as do other American Orchestral/classical players. Ricardo uses a Backun mouthpiece that has a 1.15 or 1.17 tip opening.
Post Edited (2008-04-02 21:38)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2008-04-02 21:59
The "Sweet Spot" defined between struggling to play longer passages and squeaking on soft attacks is best.
The idea is to have a facing that plays well with the reed you like best.
Struggling will reduce your practice time, and practice time makes so much else seem effortless...
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-04-02 22:08
Nowadays I normally use a Grabner K14 with a 3.5 Legere Quebec after 40+ years of using medium mouthpieces with 4 or 5 Vandorens.
My current clarinet coach had me try some extremes and it was a real eye-opener.
I first tried a very close, narrow, long lay with a (german cut?) #5, and I was amazed at how little effort it took. I could hardly see any light between the reed and m/p. I didn't have to do anything with my mouth except get a good seal. It was still my "sound", but I missed being able to bend notes and affect the tone with my jaw. It was still a ton of fun to play, but I went back to my middle-of-the-road setup.
Many months later he hauled out a very open Morgan that had been refaced to an extreme opening that I'd never heard of. He ceremoniously presented me with my first #1 strength reed. That setup gave me some insanely good flexibility, a huge sound (still my "sound") and was again a ton of fun to play.
I'm still waiting to get a super-sized Morgan for my Bb. My situation is complicated by using different mouthpieces on all four of my sopranos (Eb/C/Bb/A) because I have to switch frequently and quickly. I would like to get something for all of the sopranos somewhere between my K14 and the super-Morgan, but the risk is that I might burn through too many mouthpieces on the quest for four perfect pieces.
Anywhoo, the bottom line is that if you're concentrating on one size clarinet, play a closed, medium and really open mouthpiece. Then decide which range you like best, then keep narrowing the field. Either work with a mouthpiece artist or get mouthpiece sizing charts and keep narrowing the choices.
Keep a wide range of reed strengths around!
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Author: patrickryan04
Date: 2008-04-02 22:54
I recently switched over to a Backun Traditional MP from a Richard Hawkins. At first I wasn't to pleased with the sound I was getting from the Backun, but I loved the response and overall feel of the MP. After about a week the sound I was getting on Backun was great and in my opinion much better then what I could achieve on the Hawkins. So I have come to the conclusion that there is a certain break in time for a mouthpiece especially if the new MP is on the other side of the spectrem then your old MP. Give the new MP a couple of days and see if it doesnt feel or sound alittle better. Your chops have to adjust.
1st Armored Division Band
Clarinetist
Dixie Band
Woodwind Quintet
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-04-03 11:52
Thanks for all your opinions, everyone - especially LonDear, some interesting advice there!
Currently I play with the mpc that suits the reeds I like best. If I decide to explore one of these directions, I have to change both the reeds and mouthpiece simultaneously. That's a lot of variables and the scientist in me balks at it. So it's good to have some idea of where such a change might take me.
But I do wonder (as an aside) if students who are drawn to hard reeds through peer pressure end up on closed mouthpieces.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-04-03 12:41
A supplementary is what do we mean by open, and what is closed, or medium, and the same for length? If a B40 is regarded by some as open, it would be regarded in the UK as a medium facing. I would myself also say that 1.15mm, which I imagine is about as closed as most non-Germanic orchestral players use, could nonetheless be regarded as medium, particularly when including the German styles in the sample. If we go back to the dawn of jazz, then mouthpieces tended to be made with a 1.00mm opening, which most non-Germanic players might regard as very closed. I myself play on a 1.06mm opening mouthpiece which would make me more or less a freak in Britain, where 1.25mm is commonplace.
And then there is the length to consider....
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-04-03 22:46
I did once play on a Pillinger mouthpiece with 1.25mm opening and 23mm long lay and reeds #3 but now I use openings around 1.02-1.08mm and 17-19mm openings and #3.5 reeds and at least those pieces in that range I have played are all much easier to control and give me security. I think I don't sound much different on them or the Pillinger It's just that the other ones make my work much easier. Better control in each register,better prjection,playing soft with good quality sound is much easier and life with reeds is made much easier.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-04-04 04:57
This is silly. You try different mouthpieces out with different strength reeds and find what works best for you, not for someone else. Everyone is different, what works for one person may or may not work for another. You must consider the differences in physical makeup. Teeth formation, over bite, under bite, jaw strength, size of mouth, tongue and oral cavity and the list goes on. How much mouthpiece one takes in their mouthpiece and the angle they prefer make a very big difference in the use of a long or short facing and reed strength and facing. There are so many factors that make one player use the opposite equipment than another. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-04-04 12:47)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-04 06:18
"I'd wear sneakers on stage if I could...."
I can, and do, most of the time....
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-04-04 09:11
> This is silly.
It seems a sensible question to me. For example: I can advise a novice whether they'd benefit from a harder or softer reed - the effects are pretty well known. So I was wondering whether there were generally understood trends in hard reed / closed mpc vs. soft reed / open mpc, before I explored them all - which is a significant undertaking.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-04-04 11:26
In case anyone might read anything into the fact that Ed Pillinger's mouthpiece has been specified in IC's remarks, I think it worth pointing out the following things about him:
1. Ed Pillinger plays on close facing mouthpieces, and does not sound at all like the usual image one has of British playing, having been a student of Alan Hacker.
2. His mouthpieces cover the range of openings, from very closed to very open. 1.25mm is on the open end of his scale, though he makes them even more open for those who want that.
3. To illustrate: my Pillinger B flat mouthpieces are 1.05mm (2 of them) and 1.25mm, and the one I use most frequently was relayed by him to 1.06mm. On basset horn (alto mouthpiece) it is 1.3mm, and on bass it is 1.75mm.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-04-04 11:35
Just to point out the extremes: Clark Fobes say that his CF+(1.00mm opening and 17mm long lay) is on the middel of the road that suites most players and good start when trying his mouthpieces. Peter Eaton says that they consider 1.23mm oepning with 21mm long lay to be a mid-range opening.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-04 12:57
Sneakers on stage is fine as long as they're black or red. It is my opinion that those who are fairly serious and confused about mouthpieces get and use the mouthpiece measuring tools. Until you actually measure any mp you are still wandering in the woods.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-04-04 14:29
Bassie, I edited my post for you to explain why I said it was silly, I was mainly referring to several of the replies but I hope my edited notes explains why it is different for everyone. One person can play an opened mouthpiece with a long facing and use a hard reed and get a good sound and control and another can use a closed facing with a short facing and use a soft reed and get the same result. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-04-04 15:20
Well, I've got a B40 lyre and an 11.6 in the post so we'll see what happens!... :-)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-04 15:29
For me, it is a short lay, medium-close tip and soft reed. Yes, it has almost no resistance, but I came to this setup so that I can practice for hours and hours without feeling like I am going to pass out.
I want to play an entire solo concert and still be standing afterward.
I save the workout for the gym.
Post Edited (2008-04-04 15:30)
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Author: classicalguss
Date: 2008-04-04 16:52
My friend Everett Matson used to be very clear about stating that everyone was different. His best work was on mouthpieces that the player was there for the work, IMHO. The 3 mouthpieces that I have are all "Matson's", even though 2 of them are originally Kaspars. He told me that his favorite work was done for his wife (Billie) on an original Selmer. I have that one. Pretty darn great, too.
Boy, do I miss him, both as a musician and friend.
Roy
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-04 17:37
"Sneakers on stage is fine as long as they're black or red."
Hmm... mine are gray, but I'm colourblind 
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2008-04-04 23:49
Bassie; You forgot to consider the chamber or the deepness of the baffle. Take two mouthpieces of the same facing, the one with the shallow baffle can drive a harder reed. Look at Selmers. The C85 1.05mm facing is fairly closed with a short facing but a deep baffle. Mine is the Selmer CP100 with a 1.22mm and long facing but a deep baffle to. They both use soft reeds. Pete Fountain gets the whole range to the high notes with whatever he is using, but it must be soft, huh? Stanley Drucker can tongue as well as Fountain, huh?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-04-06 19:33
> You forgot to consider the chamber or the deepness of the baffle.
Ken - Yup, the whole B45 'dot' thing...
*
This is clearly a very complicated thing (and my recent acquisitions on sale-or-return haven't cleared much up, except that I like them both). Obviously this sort of complexity is how custom mouthpiece makers make ends meet. But they must be working to some sort of system when a player is 'fitted' with a piece (for want of a better word). Now, they're not gonna spill everything (actually, I suspect its more like the really good ones couldn't explain much in a bboard post even if they tried) - but I wondered if between us we couldn't extract a trend or two.
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