 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-03-03 18:17
I have been doing some experimenting with my reed/mouthpiece setup lately. I have made a number of observations about the way certain reeds work with my mouthpiece/ligature, and I am trying to understand *why* I've experienced what I've experienced, largely so that I can better tweak my setup but also just to have a better understanding in general. I've done some research by searching through previous posts on this board, which has been very insightful.
I was hoping that perhaps some of you who have much more knowledge and experience than I do can give me a good explanation of what's going on. (I'm a "serious adult amateur player" who took lessons for many years with a fabulous teacher in my pre-college days. In college I majored in engineering, rather than music, however.)
My mouthpiece is an Eddie Daniels (Zinner blank) and I have a Rovner Mark III ligature. Before I bought the Eddie Daniels, I had a Gigliotti P34, which I found played well with White Master 3.5s. I tried the White Masters on the Eddie Daniels and they sounded even better. They were very responsive and had a nice clear and resonant tone. However, they had a tendency to chirp sometimes. I attributed the chirpyness to the difficulty of getting the little narrow White Master reeds positioned quite right on the mouthpiece (which looks to be a little wider than the Gigliotti). In my subsequent experience with reeds designed for French clarinets, I did not experience this chirping, so I'm led to believe that the reed width/positioning was the issue.
Since White Masters have a thick heel, and thick-heeled reeds seem to be all the rage, I thought maybe I'd try a more French-sized reed with a thick heel to see if I could get similar results without the chirps. So I tried a box of the new Vandoren 56 Rue Lepic reeds (#3.5), which are supposed to have some similarities to German-style reeds (such as a thick heel and a single cut vamp). I was quite disappointed to find that although they don't chirp, the 56s played and sounded very stuffy. Even my wife (who is not a clarinet player) could tell that they didn't sound quite right.
This indicated to me that it was perhaps something other than just the thickness of the blank that I need to look at. I did some research here on the board which indicated to me that perhaps it's the size of the vamp, and not the thickness of the blank, per se, that would explain the different results between the White Masters and the 56s. The 56s have a noticeably longer vamp than the White Masters. I don't know for sure if this would explain the difference, however.
Next I tried a box of blue box Vandorens (also #3.5 strength). These were a noticable improvement over the 56s, but they still weren't quite as playable and pleasant sounding as the White Masters (chirps notwithstanding). Blue box Vandorens appear to have about the same length vamp (maybe a little longer) than the White Masters, but they obviously are cut from a thinner blank (and are obviously wider as well). This leads me to wonder: just what is it about the White Masters that makes them play so well? And can I get the same results from a reed that doesn't require such tight tolerances in positioning?
I understand that there is a Black Master as well as a White Master variety of Vandoren. I haven't tried Black Masters yet, but I've picked up from reading other folks' past posts that the Black Masters are somewhere in between the Blue Box and White Masters in terms of width. I don't know anything else about them, though, or how they might work on my mouthpiece. I think I remember reading somewhere that the Black Masters run softer than the White Masters. Is this true?
Of course, Vandoren 56s are supposed to be "softer" than the Blue Box, but in my experience, the Blue Box reeds blow more easily (at least on my setup). This leads me to believe that "reed strength" does not directly correlate with blowing resistance. Looking at the Vandoren website and their specifications for reeds, it also appears that all Blue Box reeds have approximately the same tip thickness and that the "reed strength" must be a property of the material itself (i.e., the cane), rather than the dimensions. Am I right about this?
Before trying something new, I'd kind of like to see if it's possible to isolate what variations in reed parameters are affecting the way these three different varieties of Vandoren reeds behave on my mouthpiece. I figure that there has to be somebody out there who has enough experience with all of these products to know why they do what they do and why some are more appropriate for my equipment (and musical taste, I suppose) than others. That way, I can know better what to look for to suit my instrument.
By the way, to the best of my knowledge, the Eddie Daniels/Hans Zinner mouthpiece has a 1.04 mm tip opening. I don't know what the facing length dimension is, though.
Thanks!
Mike
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-03-03 18:58
Hmmm I used to use Vandoren V-12 #3.5 reeds but use now Glotin GIII #3.5 which I got very cheap because they are no longer made. When I played the V-12 reeds I tried the Black master #3 and they were too hard for me and my feeling was that I got a bit brighter sound and not as flexible as with French cut reeds. And I was using Charles Bay mouthpiece at that time which are narrower width than the Zinner blanks.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-03-04 12:06
Hi mrn,
I have a similar techinical background and this sort of stuff interests me quite a lot - though I'm not sure if I have any answers!
The cut of the reed clearly affects the sound greatly, and every manufacturer does this differently. As I understand it, if you cut the same reed from thicker cane it'll come out softer, because the tip will be cut from cane further from the 'bark'. Also, different cuts can behave differently on different mouthpieces - the best reed on mouthpiece 'A' might be different from the best reed on mouthpiece 'B' for the same player.
There are a number of things I look for in a reed. How does it affect the tone: does it sound bright, or dull, or nasal, or squeaky? Does it have a tendency to overblow (chirp?)? Is it easy to find the right strength? How is the articulation? Does it do what it wants, or what I want it to? These are different for every manufacturer I've tried.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-03-05 03:26
Let me know if anyone can ever really understand reeds. With that said, I'll say the same thing I say about mouthpieces, ligatures, clarinets, barrels and what ever else there is, everyone is different. No two people can us the same equipment and expect to have exactly the same reaction. There are so many variables in our physical make up that what we put at the end of our mouths is only part of the total tonal experience. Teeth formation, jaw strength, lip thickness and size, tongue size, oral cavity capacity, throat opening etc. etc. So my point here with reeds is that one person may like brand X playing a number 3 on the same mouthpiece as someone else playing the same mouthpiece with a number 5. There's no one reed brand or strength for any one mouthpiece. At least that's what I believe and that's the way I teach. Find the combination that fits you the best, and let me know if you ever really get to understand reeds. I don't mean that too literally of course, I do pretty good in that department. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-03-05 06:25
Just some thoughts:
It's my understanding that White Master reeds are made for German style mouthpieces, so the reed cut is completely wrong for your French style mouthpiece. But if you're getting good results, who am i to tell you not to use those reeds?! I've just never heard of anybody trying to use White Masters on a French mouthpiece. Black Masters are a different story because they're made for Austrian mouthpiece facings, and the reeds have a cut which is more similar to the French cut reeds. Apparently there are some people who get very good results using Black Masters on French mouthpieces. I've tried them, but they don't work for me.
The Rue Lepic reeds that you tried may have been too hard for your mouthpiece. A 3.5 White Master doesn't necessarily translate into a 3.5 Rue Lepic, or a 3.5 Blue Box or V12. Reed comparison charts don't even list the White Master for the reasons given above. Reeds that are much too hard will sound very stuffy.
Regarding the chirps: Whenever i try a German instrument (with German mouthpiece and reeds) I have a tendency to chirp from time to time. This is a very particular kind of squeak, using when playing in the lower register, that I never get on a French set-up. Even the professional Wurlitzer player who sits next to me in the orchestra (we're a mixed group) chirps occasionally. I don't now what causes this, so I can't give you any advice on how to stop it! :(
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-03-05 06:37
OK- so I posted and then realised that I have some White Master reeds lurking around in my cupboard. I thought I'd try them out for a strength comparison. I normally play V12 3.5 on my French mouthpiece. The 3.5 White Masters where too hard, but the no.3 White Masters were more or less the right strength.
However, they really don't work on my mouthpiece- don't sound nice and are very inflexible.
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Author: vin
Date: 2008-03-05 10:04
Richard Stoltzman used White Masters for awhile, so it's not unheard of on French mouthpieces.
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