 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 11:38
I seem to recall some board members commenting after watching a Karl Leister performance in a Mozart trio (possibly on YouTube) that he moved too much, or his movements whilst playing were distracting - even though he and the others were seated for the trio (and even though I'm not the greatest Mozart fan, I thoroughly enjoyed the performance and Karl Leister's playing).
Would you rather watch a performance where the performers were live, but all stood (or seated) stock still as statues, or made the movements that they felt like doing during their performance? Does the individual player's movement during a performance distract you from what you're hearing? If so, how?
And would you be just as satisfied by listening to a CD being played while watching slides or stills on a screen of the players?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-06-13 13:12
Quote:
Would you rather watch a performance where the performers were live, but all stood (or seated) stock still as statues, or made the movements that they felt like doing during their performance?
That's something of a straw man. I think I'd be bothered trying to watch a clarinetist perform while immobile, nothing but the fingers moving -- and I think trying to force oneself to be motionless would be an impediment to performing.
But I don't like watching clarinetists moving all over the place, either. See the Sabine Meyer / Julian Bliss video on YouTube mentioned in another thread -- I found their large bobbing motions distracting and irritating.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-13 13:26
the thread you mention made a comment as to the way his arm moved during trills. it was not a question of 'expressionate' movements.
as for your question- it is a good one. too little movement looks cold and too much silly. but how much is too much/little.
my question on this topic- is moving neccessary for the sound? are there timbres that require the body to move?
for piano, for example, leaning forward or back etc. allows different colors to come more easily. what about for winds?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-13 14:01
I commented on Karl's excessive squirming around. I guess Distraction is different for different people. I found Julian's bobbing with Sabine distracting and wondered if he was emulating her. Whereas in the Queen's Prom dvd his movement was far less and not distracting to me at all. I think that sometimes what we perceive as excessive movement is an attention getting device while at other times it's the performer's being "into" the thing.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-06-13 14:03
Yeah, sure, movement of any sort can influence the production of sound from any source, whether those movements and their effects are intentional or unintentional.
But is what you are addressing here the *intentional* use of movement to influence the sound production, or the use of movement as an expressive tool irrespective of its influence (or lack of influence) on sound production?
I recall observing a vocal music seminar some years ago, featuring members of the SF Opera Merola training program. Of all the musical arts, opera demands perhaps the most expressive movement from its performers, and sometimes maintaining appropriate musicality in the midst of all that expressive movement can be a significant challenge. In the seminar that day, the singers demonstrated to what extremes they could go, physically, while still maintaining perfectly beautiful vocal production -- fight scenes, dances, and most notably one scene in which the tenor dragged the soprano by the hair across the floor without either of them missing a note or altering their delivery of the music.
Could I do that on a wind instrument? I doubt it. Nor do I know of, at the present time, any wind instrument music which requires that extent of expressive movement. But my point is that movement during performance, in and of itself, does not necessarily change normal musical production.
I suspect that if some composer were to require a clarinetist to continue to play while dancing (which is already being done on the oboe -- Diana Doherty) or imitating a whirling dervish, there would be some artist who would rise to the task.
Susan
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-06-13 16:27
I read in interesting paper on clarinet sound production that traced the appearance of richer harmonic structure in the tone as a result of the performer's movement of the horn.
The doppler shift in pitch caused by the relative velocity between the sound source and the listener is proportional to the base vibration frequency. Thus, as the clarinetist swings the instrument, the different harmonics all shift. But the shift is in proportion to the frequencies of the harmonics --changing the timbre of the player's "sound."
Thus, if the clarinetist isn't swinging his/er instrument around, you as the listener are obliged to sway with the music.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Allegremente
Date: 2007-06-13 22:05
Don't get me wrong, I love my audience to death and nothing pleases me more than making them happy. That said, I think it's okay for a performer to indulge themselves when it comes to "getting into" the crafting of their art, audience be damned. As a listener, I've never found moving around to detract from the auditory quality of the performance, and likewise it's always seemed to be a bit rigid and repressive to me for a teacher to demand no movement from their students due to economy of motion and all that. A good deal of science goes into the mechanics of performance, yes, but there's a certain point where I think it's okay to remember that it's art after all and take some liberties to satisfy yourself as an artist.
Rob
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-13 23:00
I heard a teacher once say to a student that moved a lot, 'please don't get so carried away with your own playing; it looks like you are masturbating!'
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-06-14 00:53
Most live performances I go to, I listen to with my eyes shut. (I usually find myself distracted by the visual stimuli of a live performance and find it easier to concentrate on the music that way.)
I remember a Juilliard 'woodwind soiree' not long ago that had Charles Neidech and his wife Ayako Oshima paired up on a couple of pieces; both of them moved around so much it almost looked like they were playing underwater--but the music and their playing were outstanding, and my eyes were shut mostly, so what the hey?
I move around some when I play too, and I wonder sometimes if accompanying a phrase with movement, or using movement to underscore a phrase for myself, REALLY adds to the expressive quality the listener hears--or somehow detracts from it (after all, if you're putting energy into movng around, that energy isn't going into the actual music...right?).
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-14 03:48
DougR "I move around some when I play too, and I wonder sometimes if accompanying a phrase with movement, or using movement to underscore a phrase for myself, REALLY adds to the expressive quality the listener hears--or somehow detracts from it (after all, if you're putting energy into movng around, that energy isn't going into the actual music...right?)."
I think that moving does make a big difference in the sound, but the thing that bothers me in a performance is if the movement expresses the idea, "oh, my playing is so beautiful. I am in awe of ME!! Isn't this the best thing you've done this month, too?" I have noticed that this is usually found in side-to-side motion of the head with raised eyebrows. To me, it looks pompus.
One other problem (at least, I think is't a problem) with moving is that I often see players moving all about during the slow [read- "technically simple"] sections - like ballet - and then, they come to a section of 16th notes and all the body movement stops and the only thing that they are moving is their fingers. Why? To concentrate, of course. But if one does this the audience can clearly SEE the change. Ie. the audience can see your weakness and it looks bad.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-14 04:27
Amen to that, skygardener. And especially to that teacher's comment.
There are different schools of thought on this, and I belong firmly to the "don't move around so much" camp.
If the performer suddenly has to stand still for the fast notes in order to concentrate, it's a suggestion to me that they aren't concentrating enough on the supposedly easy parts.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-14 21:43
-- "If the performer suddenly has to stand still for the fast notes in order to concentrate, it's a suggestion to me that they aren't concentrating enough on the supposedly easy parts." --
Hmm, are you saying this just a little 'tongue in cheek'?
If I'm driving through the city centre with my kids, I have to concentrate and yell at them to shut up...or else!
On the long empty roads, I drive with care but have time to enjoy myself and talk.
I think that on the easy parts we still put in the effort but have more time to express ourselves.
Steve
PS We always sit for concerts so no moving, but when I practise at home, I stand, and move rather too much!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-14 21:59
Yeah, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek. There are two main reasons I dislike all the movement...
1) I've had an excellent teacher who is very much from the school of non-moving and has demonstrated in myriad ways the benefits of not moving.
2) I find it incredibly irritating when someone moves around the stage, as if to say, "Hey you people, look at this magnificent thing I can do. WOW!!! I push down all these fingers and all these notes come out! Aren't I the most fantastically amazing person on the face of the planet??? There couldn't possibly be someone out there who would even be capable of doing this wondrous thing that I am making look so terribly easy and orgasmic!"
OK, three.
3) The person doing #2, in my experience, doesn't sound good as the person doing #1 ****PROPERLY****. (Not moving without knowing and taking advantage of WHY you're not moving doesn't achieve all that much)
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-14 22:07
-- "I push down all these fingers and all these notes come out! Aren't I the most fantastically amazing person on the face of the planet??? " --
That is great! ;-)
Steve
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Author: rgames
Date: 2007-06-15 00:19
There is one thing more distracting than movement: conversation. And when it's a soloist conversing during rests, it's even more distracting!
I once saw Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg do a double concerto with a cellist. I don't even remember the piece or who the cellist was but I do remember Ms. Salerno-Sonnenberg walking over the to the cellist, in the middle of the piece, multiple times, front and center, and having extended conversations while the orchestra played along behind her. Now THAT's distracting...!
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Pam H.
Date: 2007-06-15 02:38
I don't mind some movement but I think you can get carried away.
A little judgement is called for too, depending on the size of the ensemble. If you are a soloist playing with a larger group I think you have more latitude for moving as much as you wish, even if some of it is more for drama than actual musical expression.
Maybe a woodwind quintets players would move more as they play than say orchestra players. Part of the movement in a smaller group too is conducting within the group.
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-06-15 16:28
I recommend y'all listen with your ears and hearts and not your eyes and logic. And that goes for listening to your teachers as well. Half the advice we give you is to help you get a job rather than to extend the limits of your art. That part is up to you. It's important to have discipline, but it's also important to explore on your own. I guarantee that the next generation of great clarinet players, as all artists, will be setting boundaries rather than observing them. They'll probably move around as they play; they may be playing hard rubber clarinets rather than buffets; they may be using a hint of vibrato (horrors!); or they may even be using synthetic reeds. Or none of those things. But they will probably have TRIED all those things, and more, instead of taking someone's word that they absolutely, positively shouldn't.
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-06-15 19:39
"Logic" has nothing to do with my own distaste for watching clarinetists who move a lot. If anything, logic tells me there's nothing wrong with it, and that it might even enhance the sound of their music. I dislike it purely at an emotional level, something that's hard to just put aside.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2007-06-15 21:35
My thought is that some movement is appropriate, I have been known to do same on ocassion. But some do it to excess. Sabine (even while seated) is the example that comes to mind first. The one time I saw Tokyo Kosei in performance I was somewhat on edge. The oboist was gyrating so much I was afraid he would hit the stand with his oboe. That would really have detracted from the performance!
Marcia
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2007-06-16 07:30
I agree that perception of a performer's movement in relation to the music is often a very personal thing. Generally, I tend to think that less is preferable, since lots of movement can be distracting, but it's true that it can seem unnatural if the player is frozen in place for an entire performance. Then again, just closing your eyes can eliminate the whole problem; the sound is what matters most anyway.
On the other side of things, I recently attended a small pre-concert master class with the jazz vocalist Kurt Elling. He's a great performer--wildly innovative, while still taking a very studious, thoughtful approach to his musicianship, and maintaining a similar vibe to a lot of the old school jazz masters. During the master class, he spoke about the importance of movement for a vocalist, and how it must be practiced and prepared in the same way as the rest of the music. He suggested that even if the movement is going to be improvised, it should make sense in context, and it generally should come from a "repertoire" of different motions, which can be called upon in the same manner as scales, jazz licks, etc.
I think this is a fascinating way of looking at the subject, and have wondered if instrumentalists should consider their movements in the same way. So far I haven't really tried this sort of thing--I have enough other things to practice as it is--but it's an interesting idea.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Martin Fröst yet in this thread. He apparently has performed choreographed dances while playing, and has even performed on roller skates. My experience with his performance is limited to a few Youtube videos and videos on his website, but he seems to be an excellent player, both standing still and jumping around the stage. Hopefully I can manage to see him live sometime; his performances seem to be unlike anything else out there.
Tom
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-06-17 01:16
Going by some of the YouTube vids, Martin Frost either choreographs his motions for concert performances, or he's just kinetically gifted. See, for example, the clip of the Aho Concerto performance (btw, I found Frost's cd of this very impressive.)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-17 13:23
as much as I can I always like to go to masterclasses of non-clarinet to think about things differently.
I have noticet a few piano teachers encourage large arm movenets because 'the audience loves it'. a pianist friend of mine always uses huge arm movenent and head swinging (he's won a few big competitions this way)- but in ensembles he has nearly no movement.
the point is- if you DO move (even if it's because you think it looks cool) than you should be aware of it.
I went to a clarinetist's concert and a couple times(only 3x or so) the performer raised their foot and placed it down on accents(no sound, just motion). it kind of looked cool at the moment, in a way... after the concert I asked them about it and they said, 'Oh my God! I do that? I had no idea; that's horrible!'
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-18 10:30
"Martin Frost either choreographs his motions for concert performances, or he's just kinetically gifted. "
No,no- they are choreographed. Jeez...:)
-jane
Post Edited (2007-06-18 11:06)
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