 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-12 17:44
Hello Everyone.
I'm a new to the BBoard, but not to music.
I currently have a yahama, custom made, clarinet that my dad was given while first chair in the Singapore Symphony. She sounds nice and crisp, and even better with a A. Gigliotti mouth piece.
As great as it may sound, I'm despising a=440 more and more. The influence of people like Norbert Brainin and Lyndon LaRouche; and also through person experiences with classical Bel Canto singing, has made me in need of a clarinet that tunes to c=256.
I know they exist. A friend of mine had aquired one as an insurence settlement (how weird). Other than his, all I seem to be able to find are those fuddy-duddy 'original instrument' styles...
Does anybody know where I can purchase a model constructed clarinet tuned to c=256?
Thanks
Daniel
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-12 18:07
It would be a lot easier to say you want a clarinet pitched A=432 (since A is normally used as the referant, not C). Any custom clarinet maker could oblige you if you have the money.
Clarinet in "Verdi tuning", anyone?
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-12 18:29
The problem which still arises, is: I would prefer to stay with more technologically advanced clarinets, ie the current standard fingering.
They do exist, I know someone out there has friends in the industry that make 'um
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-01-12 19:01
In a case of truly strange bedfellows residing in one person, the whacko politician Lyndon Larouche (who things the Queen of England heads the international drug trade) also argues for the re-establishment of A-435, saying, with good reason, that this was Verdi's pitch and that singers will be less likely to scream when we go back to what Verdi expected.
Orsi http://www.orsi-wind-instruments.it/ says that it can produce any instrument it has made, but the cost for clarinets at 435, or 431, would be in the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" range.
You say "they do exist," but I've never seen or heard of one. Where did you find it?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-12 19:58
How did they know back in them there olden days that they were building an instrument to 415Hz or 435Hz?
Or, what did they use as a tuning reference to be sure that all wind instruments were compatible?
And how did they know their tuning fork (if that's what they used) was the right pitch?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-12 20:25
Chris P wrote:
> How did they know back in them there olden days that they were
> building an instrument to 415Hz or 435Hz?
You built your instrument to conform as well as possible with the local church organ ...
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-12 20:35
Everything that has to do with historical pitch in today’s performance is very relative. Pitch in the old days varied a lot from place to place. German baroque pitch could vary from A=410 to maybe A=425 and French ditto from A=410 or lower, even down to lower than 400. In Cremona in the times of A Stradivarius the pitch is believed to have been as high as A=460, close to half a tone higher than we have today. The baroque scene today is very international among its musicians so they have to agree to a common pitch, for baroque music A=415 and for classical music A=430. I think Chris Hogwood set the classical standards around 1981 with is complete Mozart symphonies recordings.
For deep loading in historical pitches read Bruce Haynes survey on the subject, heavy stuff.
http://www.amazon.ca/History-Performing-Pitch-Story/dp/0810841851
Alphie
Post Edited (2007-01-12 20:36)
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2007-01-13 00:25
I've been trying to figure this out for awhile - Does anyone know a website of formula that can churn out the oscillation value for each pitch? I've been trying to figure it out and have been very unsuccessful. I'll get close, but not exact.
-pat
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-01-13 08:39
Pat wrote:
>>Does anyone know a website of formula that can churn out the oscillation value for each pitch?>>
You only need a pocket calculator. It's worthwhile UNDERSTANDING how it works, too, because then you'll understand string harmonics as well.
If an open string on a string instrument vibrates with a frequency f say, then if you stop the string half way up its length the resultant half-length string vibrates with a frequency 2f, an octave above. If you stop the string 2/3 of the way up its length, the resultant one-third-length string vibrates with a frequency 3f, an octave and a fifth above. If you stop the string 3/4 of the way up its length, the resultant one-quarter-length string vibrates with a frequency 4f, two octaves above. And so on, up what's called the harmonic series.
That means that given a note frequency (or a string length that produces that note) you can calculate the frequency corresponding to a fifth above (or the string length that would produce a note a fifth above). Because, in the example above, the two frequencies that correspond to the interval of a fifth are 2f and 3f, and so are in a RATIO of 3 to 2 (or equivalently, 1.5 to 1).
Therefore if the first note is A=440, the second note will be E=(440*1.5), that is, E=660.
Equivalently, if you have a string length that produces A=440, the string length that produces the E a fifth above is obtained by DIVIDING the original string length by 1.5 -- or multiplying by 2/3.
The principle is that given any frequency, say A=440, you can calculate the frequency of any note other than A (in the particular case I described, E) by finding the number that corresponds to the interval between A and that note (in our case, 1.5), and then multiplying 440 by that number. So 1.5 is the number for a fifth, and every interval has its own magic number.
Now that's how to calculate a 'pure' fifth. But in practice, we tune to equal temperament, which doesn't quite follow the harmonic series.
Fortunately, it's very easy to understand equal temperament from our point of view. Equal temperament makes all semitones the same, so once we've found what magic number corresponds to the interval of a semitone, then, starting at any note, we can work out the frequency of any other note by multiplying by the magic number several times. How many times? Well, however many times it takes to get to the other note by semitone steps!
So, what's the magic number? We want multiplying by it twelve times to get to an octave above, and THAT frequency is twice the first frequency. So we want a number which when multiplied by itself twelve times will give 2 -- and mathematicians call that the twelfth root of 2. The way to write that on a keyboard is 2^(1/12).
A pocket calculator will quickly give you this number -- or if I type 2^(1/12) into Google's search box and press return, Google tells me it's 1.05946309 -- and so we can work out the magic number corresponding to an EQUAL TEMPERED fifth by multiplying 1.05946309 by itself 7 times (there are 7 semitones in a fifth). If I type (2^(1/12))^7, Google says that's 1.49830708, which is AMAZINGLY close to 1.5, the magic number for a perfect fifth. This incredible coincidence is what makes western music possible!
Anyway, that's how Mark Charette was able to say what frequency A had to have if C=256. He just multiplied 256 by the magic number 9 times. Try it! (Google says 430.538965;-)
Tony
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-01-13 11:06
Thanks, Tony! A book for people who find this subject as interesting as I do:
Jorgensen, Owen H. Tuning: Containing The Perfection of Eighteenth Century Temperament, The Lost Art of Nineteenth Century Temperament and the Science of Equal Temperament. East Lansing, Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 1991.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-01-13 14:07
How about using the "square root of 2" to establish your own set of note frequencies? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-01-13 14:20
ERROR, [UGH, Engage Brain Before Opening Mouth and posting !!] Before a math expert corrects me, I meant the 12th root of 2 to calc. the half tones, I thimk !! Use logarithms. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2007-01-13 15:06
Tony, thanks for the explanation. (I'm gonna need some coffee before I read through it again...) Great information to know. Something I wasn't taught in college.
Sturmantheyounger, I apologize if I inadvertenly hijacked your thread.
-pat
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-13 20:35
pzar,
I was enroute to my office and was looking at some of these posts on my cell phone; that same thought had popped in my mind! Ive been Hi-Jacked! But as I was reviewing the thread on my computer, I realized that it hadn't turned into such a bad discussion. I'm very happy to see that this discussion had some how veered into a discussion on geometry and music. Unfortunatly this doesn't fix your problem completly. The division of a string, along with equal tempering, gives you values to how you are approaching that division of a string. That is a whole other string in itself... Just breifing, Bach's discovey of 'well-tempering', one example being his, ofcourse, the Well Tempered Clavier. The pardox lies in the Pythagorean Comma which you can find an example in Johannes Kepler's Harmonice Mundi, or The Harmony of the World.
But back to c256. The discussion, if we are going to have one, of c=256, should be discussed form the standpoint of the human singing voice. Which also, we should start another thread on. I think, if anyone put some thought into it, would come up with the fact that all music and song would be arisen from the human voice.
Ok, so c=256 clarinets. Anyone know where I can find a modernly designed c256 clarinet?
thanks
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
Post Edited (2007-01-14 00:42)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-13 21:13
sturmantheyounger wrote:
> Ok, so c=256 clarinets. Anyone know where I can find a
> modernly designed c256 clarinet?
Did you actually read the posts? I gave you an answer.
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-13 21:51
I read through them all.
The question that, I guess I wasn't as clear as I could be, is whether there are any companies that regularly produce a=432 clarinets.
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-14 00:03
sturmantheyounger wrote:
> The question that, I guess I wasn't as clear as I could be, is
> whether there are any companies that regularly produce a=432
> clarinets.
Nope. No market worth pursuing for that tuning. To perform with (let's say) an opera, the rest of the instruments would also have to tune the same, and accompaniment with piano would be problematic at best since modern pianos are not tuned so low and tuning them that far off can cause problems.
The market ends up being even smaller since it ends up being a solo instrument.
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2007-01-15 05:01
Pythagorean comma - very interesting. Never heard about it in college. It does help explain why I've been told to drop a perfect 5th ever so slightly when playing it.
-pat
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-15 08:03
If you want to play at 430Hz, then why not specialise in playing reproduction clarinets?
I'm sure you can find others that will share the same enthusiasm for authentic(ish) performances and form a chamber group to specialise in performing Classical and early Romantic.
There's loads of makers building period instruments of all kinds for authentic performance.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-15 14:33
Sturmantheyounger:
At least one of those period instrument builders, Stephen Fox is a sponsor of this BB and builds a number of fascinating period clarinet models such as what you are seeking. Just click INSTRUMENTS on the right of the screen to find out all about them. Eu
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-15 15:19
alright!
good news!
somebody, a number of posts ago, asked where I could find this lower tuned, but still modern designed, clarinet.
I finally got a hold of my friend in Boston; it turns out that it is made by Buffet. There are 2 clarinets that come up on Buffets website with the serial number imprinted on the clarinet.
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : N° 1 Sib Amérique
Serial number : 102946
Year of manufacturing : 09/10/1968
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : BC 1102.AG
Serial number : 102946
Year of manufacturing : 13/03/1995
He said it looks like something closer to 1968, but I don't know how I would be able to find other Buffets similar to this. Does anybody have any good hunting tips (without sending me hunting with VP Cheney )?
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-15 15:32
sturmantheyounger wrote:
> I finally got a hold of my friend in Boston; it turns out that
> it is made by Buffet. There are 2 clarinets that come up on
> Buffets website with the serial number imprinted on the
> clarinet.
How, exactly, with the serial numbers, was this person able to authoritatively say that that they are tuned to a=430 or so? For, if they were, they were special ordered and serial numbers/models are irrelevant.
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-15 15:43
hmmm, let me make it clear that, like I said in the begining, I don't know about these things that I've been asking, hence why I started this discussion.
All that I know, as I have listened to the instrument and had done a thorough job matching pitches with medical tuning forks, and has others, and it's pitch had matched those of lower pitches.
Like I just asked in my last post, does anyone here know how I can find more of these instruments? I had thought that the serial might have shed some light? Would they make a customly tuned clarinet with a model that is otherwise, or give it a different serial number type?
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-15 16:04
sturmantheyounger wrote:
> I had thought that the
> serial might have shed some light?
Nope.
> Would they make a customly
> tuned clarinet with a model that is otherwise,
Given enough time & money, yes.
> or give it a
> different serial number type?
Nope.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2007-01-15 16:17
I don't know where you can buy a low pitch clarinet but you might try a 'trick' to lower the pitch. Drop a string inside the length of the barrel. Folks have tried this to convert a Bb clarinet to an A and they find that while a fat string/thin rope lowers the pitch it messes up the tuning from note to note. But a very fine string or thread might just work in lowering the tuning from 440 to 430. Also worth considering is a shorter barrel.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-15 17:05
I thought you run the string down the entire length of the bore (held by the mouthpiece tenon) and into the bell to narrow it and flatten the pitch, and not just the barrel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-15 17:55
I'd be interested in trying some of these tricks out and letting you guys know how it turns out.
If you guys have any ideas when you say string with (sewing string, twine with....?) how long, hanging from where, that'd be awesome!
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-15 18:03
Use a synthetic string as it won't go all soggy like cotton.
Fray one end so it's flat and anchor it between the mouthpiece tenon and the base of the upper barrel socket, then let the rest of the string run down the entire length of the bore and into the bell.
But experiment with different diameters of string - I reckon a bootlace would do the trick.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2007-01-16 05:51
Yes, I meant to say a string down the length of the bore (whole clarinet), not just the barrel. I also meant to say try a longer, (not shorter!) barrel, as a way to lower the pitch.
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-16 12:59
Ok, really quickly before I have to run off to work.
I tried a good ole, cheapo white shoe string.... too thick.. it wouldn't even have been close enough for jazz..
also, it definatly did mess around all the intervals... I'll try something else tonight if I can get around to it.
Oh yea, Bennett: do you know where I can get a barrell that is longer than 65/66mm?
My dad, as I was discussing this with him last night, said it might help, but not enough to get the tuning that I was hoping for.. But its still worth a shot
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2007-01-17 15:39
Use "clarinet barrel" as a search term in www.wwbw.com. Buffet, e.g., offers a 68mm barrel, Ridenour a 67mm. How low can you go by pulling out whatever barrel you now have? I find that at on my Bb, I can drop my A to 435 by pulling out my 66mm barrel 2mm.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-01-17 18:09
sturman, what about putting a thin washer of the right size inside the barrel to make it slightly longer? or perhaps a thin washer in all the tenons through the whole instrument to try and even out the tuning problems which will be induced.
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Author: sturmantheyounger
Date: 2007-01-20 15:11
Hey All
This question of extending various parts of the body of the clarinets was always a big problem. Most people only have a stance on the barrel, but like D brought up: you get other problems.
I'd like to try putting washers in all the tendons, but I'm just afraid that I won't be able to find any washers thin enough, so that, if I put on in each tendon, it'll make the clarinet go too far out of tune.
D, have you tried this already, and if so, what was your results and if you have an suggestion of parts?
fidelio magazine
schiller institute
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Author: SirNDPT
Date: 2015-02-01 18:47
Ahem...
What ever happened to this conversation?
I found it through Google because I, also, am interested in retuning my clarinet to 432.
I don't need it to be perfect because all my playing is solo in the tradition of a cantor, but my thinking is tuning rings or a longer barrel... can anyone tell me just how much longer the barrel should be or how thick the rings?
Mine is an older Yamaha YCL62 with great intonation and sounds a bit sharp at about 441/442...
I see there are some 67.5 mm barrels available...
Many thanks.
Post Edited (2015-02-01 20:25)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-02-01 21:41
You could experiment with your own clarinet by checking tuning when warmed up then pulling barrel say 2 mm and see what pitch you get etc. you could even try 4mm as well. Whilst not perfect this will give you a good idea of how much you need to lengthen your barrel to get the same pitch movement (in the opposite direction of course).
The internal tuning of the clarinet will be pretty much impacted by such a wide shift of course.
Also try pulling the middle joint about 2mm and repeat above to see how that works etc.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-01 22:21
Borgani have very recently built a tenor sax to this pitch (A432Hz), but there are two problems there:
1. It's a tenor sax.
2. It's made by Borgani.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SirNDPT
Date: 2015-02-02 02:08
Thanks for your responses and suggestions...
But about the internal tuning, since the clarinet is tuned in equal temperament, would I not want the rest of the notes to also change so that they fall into proportion (harmony?) to the 432?
I mean, I'd love to have a 432 tuned in Pythagorian 5ths but then it would really have to be made of licorice!
Bearing in mind that A=432 really means B in the clarion register, how much out of tune could the rest of the instrument be? What I am saying is, if I were tuning
an open instrument - that is, on G - then I might expect much more distortion as I closed the tone holes "below," but if I am tuning the instrument with all the tone holes closed would there not be less distortion as I opened the tone holes?
Or is my penchant for logic confusing me????
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Author: c256
Date: 2015-02-02 03:12
SirNDPT,
How did you become interested in the lower tuning? Obviously, I'm interested in the subject by the looks of my user name. I often play with singers and pianists that use c256, and have not discovered a reliable solution to lower my tuning.
The most interesting idea found in this forum includes hanging a speaker cable down the length of the clarinet.
I've also wanted to experiment with a longer barrel and a series 13 mouthpiece.
Dave
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Author: SirNDPT
Date: 2015-02-02 04:24
Hi Dave,
I became interested in 432 because of my fascination with Phi and the research that demonstrates that the Earth vibrates at a basic frequency of (nearly) 8 hz...
I have also read a great deal of what Brian Collins has to say on the subject and have had my own experiences with resonance in various different contexts...
I could go on with "Music of the Spheres" and why humanity is in a such a mess - but this is not the place for that!
Hackensack, eh ("eh?" is a Canadian idiosyncrasy!)? My daughter married a chap from Teaneck so I know a bit about Hackensack and have walked around your fair city.
I imagine that the cable "solution" raises the very same questions as do the barrel and tuning rings solutions...
By the way, the tuning rings is probably the least fruitful solution because the barrel becomes very unstable after I add more than 1.5 mm and I also sense that the irregularities in the space between the bottom of the mouthpiece and the top of the barrel distorts the shape of the sound wave... (I also think that, even though I obviously omitted it, there should be a question mark here!).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-02 04:38
Try the electrical cable down the bore thing as that should bring the pitch down uniformly rather than pulling the barrel out so far it falls off which will have more effect on the upper end notes of the instrument and less effect on the lower end notes.
Strip one end of the cable and allow the flattened out copper wires to catch in the base of mouthpiece socket when the mouthpiece is fitted and run the rest of the cable down the bore and just beyond the bell. Experiment with different diameters - a thicker diameter cable will lower the pitch more than a narrower diameter piece of cable.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SirNDPT
Date: 2015-02-02 08:54
Dave,
I was thinking about the fact you often play with singers who tune to c256...
What attracted me to the clarinet in the first instance (many decades ago!) was my sensing that its sound was the closest instrumental sound to that of the human voice... I was very surprised to learn later that Mozart felt the same way!
Because my natural talent for singing is rather limited, I learned to sing with my clarinet. My natural voice is within the baritone range; I play mostly in the chalumeau register... and I really love its "natural" Fregian modality.
So your singers tune to c256... do they also tune to Pythagorian temperament?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-02-02 09:37
A wooden Boehm conical bore Lot flute I own is pitched about A = 431 Hz. I hope to sell it one of these days as it can't be played properly at A = 440 Hz. There is nothing unique about it's sound that I can notice, as I con't have perfect pitch.
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