 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-24 00:57
I'm currently completing a run of South Pacific, playing the Reed III (clarinet) book.
In more than 30+ years of playing shows, this has been the strangest, most frustrating one of all. The conductor (and I use that term very loosely) is out of his element, as his skill level is clearly not up to the task.
To set the scene: In this particular production the pit orchestra has been placed backstage, in the wings, while the conductor is in front of the stage for the singers/actors. We are miked backstage, playing while watching a closed circuit TV monitor of the conductor and the action on stage. Thus, at the very least, communication is poor between the pit and the conductor.
As (I think) this is the conductor's first show, there are numerous mistakes: entrances are not clear, cues are missed, beats are dropped, tempos are not consistant, etc...
Thankfully the pit is made up of all pro musicians who have played the show numerous times before and are doing yeoman's work carrying the load and making the show succeed.
Although we know that a "gig is a gig" (and the pay for this job is very good), and the unwritten rule in the professional world is "never talk back to the conductor" it is very difficult not to hide our disappointment with his abilities to lead a show.
Has anyone had a recent similar experience, where the task was beyond the conductor's abilities? Did you speak out? If so, were you rehired? ...GBK
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Author: ken
Date: 2006-04-24 02:34
Logistically, it's already a tedious and challenging performing situation. Within the circles you work and play, carefully weigh the benefits and consequences of speaking out and go with your gut. Without your help, this band leader will likely cut his throat and eventually fade from the scene. And, at ground zero the phone keeps ringing, checks are issued and the next clown steps on the podium and unwrap his baton.
Where ever there is musical incompetence music suffers. The integrity of art always comes first to those who recognize it and have the courage to apply the standard. v/r Ken
"No egos under water." - Colonel Bruce Hampton
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2006-04-24 02:58
Well, if the conductor knows you are saving his a-- he is forever in your collective debt whether you say anything or not. If he doesn't realize you all are carrying the show I'm not sure how much good it would do to say anything. You could simply collect the check and politely decline working with this person again. I have experienced both the grateful and the clueless.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-04-24 03:08
Hmm...does the producer or the director know what youse guyse the "humble" musicians are accomplishing despite the conductor's ineptitude?
Of course, GBK, you'll come out of it supremely well, anyway...
Katrina
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-04-24 03:42
The problem with conducting is the lack of available practice time on the "instrument." We can buy an R13 for about 2 grand. For a conductor to have a professional-level orchestra at their disposal can cost more than that per hour. So they are, compared to every other musician in the room, usually grossly inexperienced at it.
Add this to the situation that most conductors are "the person in charge" and therefore are the one member of the ensemble that gets almost no criticism or feedback regarding how good they are at it, and it's no wonder that there are SO many bad conductors out there.
It's extremely awkward, because they're often also on the hiring end of things. Still, I think more feedback needs to be given to conductors if we're ever to see a higher rate of good ones. As it is, the bad-good ratio of conductors who are in charge of ensembles, in my experience as a performer and observant audience member, is about 10 to 1.
Lately, I see the conducting as one of the largest factors of whether an ensemble is good or not. That is, I find myself (and friends) saying "they're good players, but they'll never sound good with that conductor" far too often. Unlike the instrumentalists, though, all too often the conductor seems to have little motivation to improve his/her craft.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-24 04:08
I've had an analogous experience several times, although they were with the pianist in the pit rather than the conductor.
In each case, the keyboard player was a "church organist" who also served as the theatrical group's rehearsal pianist. In my experience, "church" musical folks are either very, very good, or not very good at all when performing with others -- there's just not any middle ground there at all. (Your experience, of course, may differ.) It's not the musical skills per se, but rather the cooperation skills that were lacking.
In the worst two cases, the conductor (who was the contractor who hired all of the other musical folks) had no say as to who was going to be the pianist. And, in both cases, the pianist was a first class musician within each of their limits.
While neither had any problem with keeping up their end of the musical performance (and one was one of the best improvisers that I've ever heard in my life), what they absolutely could not do was to "play well with others".
Neither would follow the conductor, and in one case this inability really scotched the show, musically. In that one, we were in a decked over orchestra pit, and only the conductor (who looked out of a little conning tower in the traditional opera prompter location) and the pianist (who had a closed circuit television feed and headphones so that the pianist could hear the goings on up on the stage.
High end production or not, community theater is still community theater, and of course there were problems with the on-stage stuff. And, in such cases it's normally the province of the conductor to get it all together again.
Not in this case. When the on-stage talent dropped a complete chorus of a tune, the wired-into-the-goings-on pianist simply skipped ahead to where they took it up again. The conductor tried to bring the rest of us back together, but the end result was a complete and utter mess.
By the end of the production, several of the folks in the pit were abusing the pianist in less than pleasant terms. One night, it was so bad that the pianist ended up in tears. But, the pianist continued the same horrid habits through the end of the run...
The orchestra pit in that one was also still smelling from having housed farm animals in a previous production. Manure smell and a rogue pianist - a nice combination.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-24 04:15
I have played in a pit band in a situation unfortunately similar to the one you describe. The instrumentalists certainly talked among themselves about the deficiencies of both the setup (in the wings, freezing cold, dark, with limited ability to see or hear the stage) and the conductor (asleep at the switch).
The keyboard player held it all together with vaguely directional head nods. But I doubt if any one of us actually did more than grouse. I know I didn't. We just did what we came to do, and went home.
I chalked it up to experience -- which I needed, but you may not.
Susan
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-24 13:12
I've had two situations like yours with poor conductors. I had to just decide for myself if it was worth it and in both cases I stuck it out. It is very frustrating to those of us who cherish quality.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-24 13:42
I guess it comes down to the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold, makes the rules". Fortunately here in the DC area, pit orchestras are paid so little that there's hardly any financial loss to speak of should a musician give the conductor a piece of his/her mind and get fired as the result. But in your case, GBK, since you say you're being well-paid, it might be best to just grin and bear it -- take the money and run.
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Author: melearly
Date: 2006-04-24 14:58
I've only played in a few community productions (so rehiring and money weren't really an issue! )
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Author: melearly
Date: 2006-04-24 15:05
I've only played in a few community productions (so rehiring and money weren't really an issue! ) but found there was a huge discrepancy between conductors who had a choral background and those who had some experience with instrumental conducting........ (sorry singers!)
It's a tough gig to cope with everything "above and below" stairs so to speak and amateur would be MD's don't always know what they're getting themselves in for (IMHO!)
(strangely I had a disaster of a conductor doing South Pacific too.....)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-24 16:28
Brenda Siewert wrote:
> It is very frustrating to those of us who cherish quality.
Precisely the dilemma.
When the money becomes the ONLY motivating factor, the art of performing live music takes another tiny step backwards...GBK
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Author: Gobboboy
Date: 2006-04-24 16:45
It depends on how bad you need the money doesn't it?...
I don't believe that there is a conductor alive that would thank you for saving his skin when he doesn't realize it. First you would have to explain to him that he's not up to it (because he won't know that, he's a conductor and he's always right, right?) second you have to explain to him that everyone in the pit is carrying him, me thinks he might be a little embarassed if he realized that but, he wont because he's a conductor and he's always right.......I digress...
I have been in that situation so many times, and, although extremely frustrating, at the end of the run I shake the man's hand and congratulate him on an excellent show and hope he books me for next time! which they nearly always do, and back I'd come smiling!!
Don't rock the boat....
G
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-24 17:49
"It is very frustrating to those of us who cherish quality."
That is very true, but some people cherish being nice more. I can't tell anyone what to do but I know I would definitely not say anything. From my experience seeing a lot of people complain about things like this and a lot of people that don't complain, I think it has everything to do with each person's personality and nothing to do with everything else.
But in this specific situation, who am I to say anything - I don't even make a living from music....
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-24 19:39
Ah, the choral music conductor. That's always a good one to deal with.
When I lived up north, the community orchestra I was most fond of (Centralia IL) did a concert a year with the local choral group. At those occasions, we lost Ralph, our usual conductor, and gained the head of the choral association on the podium.
This individual had the typical choral person habit of beating the words, not the tempo. You can imagine the results...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-24 19:56
Terry Stibal wrote:
> This individual had the typical choral person habit of beating
> the words, not the tempo. You can imagine the results...
In our case, the conductor stops beating time completely and just mouths the words.
It's as if he forgets the pit orchestra is even there ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-24 20:13
A substitute conductor(a Ghost conductor) inside the pit is a solution.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-24 20:13
i'm playing a gig at the moment where the conductor is very good, but there is a very well known, respected, and experienced singing/opera director/coach who sits behind the conductor in rehearsals and twitches out of time. Every so often she raises up one of her arms and starts beating time- or nods her head. She is NEVER in time with the conductor, usually up to half a beat out- i personally find it a bit distracting but the real problem is that the singers (who are all very fine singers with internation training and experience) tend to look at her, not the conductor. This woman has excellent musical ideas and has done great work preparing the singers.
Given this persons reputation, and my humble 2nd clarinetistry, i'm keeping my mouth shut. Ten years ago i probably wouldn't have been able to do this, but the reality is that she has contributed in a major way to what promises to be a good show (7 deadly sins) and has a very good relationship with the conductor. Mouth=shut.
donald
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-24 20:44
I heard a funny story.
An amateur orchestra invited a 'famous' conductor. At the rehearsal they did not have the slightest idea of what he is trying to do spitting saliva everywhere and shutting eyes like a crazy. Their solution was to make a substitute conductor stand where the real conductor cannot see i.e. in a first raw seat of the second floor(the second floor was not served to the audience).This was the sole fruit of the rehearsal. It goes without saying that the concert was a happy success.
Post Edited (2006-04-24 20:48)
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-24 21:30
Glenn,
When in college I slowly realized (by my Junior year) that my Band Director was, how shall I put it, not qualified to teach Band on a high level, or to teach students who wanted to be teachers.
This burned me up and I still hold a great deal of resentment for the treatment I received(unprofessional as it was, no one believed me) from my Band Director. I should have kept my mouth shut and said something at my commencement. Then he wouldn't have been able to torment me for 2 years.
I guess my point is that you don't seem like a quitter(what a passe' 80's term!) and I don't think you want to to burn bridges(because you're older and wiser than I was.)
I'd keep to myself until something unbearable happens. By unbearable I mean...you don't care about the money anymore. Every last desire you had for the almighty dollar is lost and you just can't take it anymore. That's the time when you wouldn't work with this person if your life depended on it. By that time others will have probably made light of the problem and you won't feel like you're out on island.
You know?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-04-24 22:19
GBK,
I have always believed in making the boss look good. It's like when you play with a new golf partner and that person is really bad. One always says "it was a pleasure to play with you."
Man, I've had my stinker jobs but I never wanted it said that I did not try my best.
HRL
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-04-24 22:54
Hi GBK:
We've both been there many times...
Here's the mind set:
Good music
Great musicians
Reeds work (most of the time)
Intonation is good
Band swings
Pay is good
But...
Conductor stinks
Conditions are a drag
Hate monitors
Here's my point;
More good stuff than bad.
Just enjoy yourself and your colleagues, and the music. Cool it with the comments.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-24 23:05
Thanks John ...
That's a great way to put everything in the proper perspective.
Much appreciated...GBK
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Author: martinbaxter
Date: 2006-04-25 08:46
So many pit gigs are like this! I could tell innumerable "Horror Stories" and so could any pit player.
My policy was to think why I was playing. If it was in the company of good musicians, many of whom became my friends and under a competent MD (yes there are some) I looked on it as pleasure and was not too fussy about the pay. The other was WORK and had to be paid for. If I had been cleaning drains I wouldn't expect to like it; but the pay would need to be damn good to get me to do it.
I've MD'd shows myself however and know that MD's are not necessarily responsible for situations such as you describe. You can tell the director they won't work; but they won't hear you.
Martin
Phone 01229583504
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-25 14:52
I have expressed my personal thoughts to Glenn offline but the entire thread and subject remind me of this story:
This guy's job is following the elephants in the Circus parade and sweeping up the droppings. Following one parade a newsman approaches the guy for an interview during which he says, "The job seems rather neverending, repetitive, monotonous and without reward; why don't you just quit?" The guy says, "What!....and leave show business!"
Bob Draznik
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-25 16:22
Take the check and exit stage left ... quietly ... being happy that you were in the wings, where nobody could see you.
The conductor's lack of experience will either eventually catch up to him, or this experience will improve him.
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-04-25 22:27
GBK - do you want your pit work to always be harmonious, to always have wonderful conductors who pander to the egos of their musicians, to always be in a comfortable position when playing?
I too have played back stage once (and only once). Actually, we were sat about 15 foot above the stage in a terraced house that was the set at the very back of the stage. Monitors were everywhere and it was a nightmare. When asked if I would play again, I declined.
My bitter experience has also taught me to show respect to the music director ... having now been on both side of the podium, the musician's life becomes insignificant when you're also worrying about singers and other distractions. How knows ... this might just be the break this guy needs.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2006-04-25 23:17)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2006-04-26 01:55
Actually, Glenn, I'm not sure what you mean by "speak out", or to whom you have in mind to speak out TO. If you mean sort of taking the conductor aside and saying something like, "I can see you really have your hands full with all the onstage action, but I have a couple of suggestions I'd like to throw your way about how things could go a little smoother in the pit..." then why not try it? I imagine you already know whether he's a receptive type or not--but he just MIGHT take you seriously, and just MIGHT even be glad for the help. You know the situation better than I, of course. Depends on who does the hiring there too--looks like a cushy gig, in a little slice of God's country, and if the guy's just a flash in the pan, it would be an account worth keeping long term under the baton of whoever succeeds this guy.
Of course, my experience is mainly with bandleaders who were ego-ridden, abusive churls. There were nights when no matter HOW good the music was, it still wasn't worth it--and then there were nights when it was.
Good luck!! in any case, the run's over soon, right?
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-04-26 02:40
In my experience, even with the worst conductors, it's just not worth it in the long run to speak out.
As articulated by JJM and others above, there are many perspectives you can take.
And there is always the "Johnson and Johnson quality control perspective"...
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_mar2003/Quality_Control.htm
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-04-27 20:21
DougR's helpful suggestion approach is a good one if the conductor is one who would be open to helpful suggestions. And phrase it not as though he is causing a problem, but as though you are having a problem. ("We're having some trouble doing such and such. Would you mind trying to do so and so to help us out?")
And, if it does need to come to saying something about the quality of the conductor, I'd suggest directing my complaints/concerns to whoever hired him, not to the conductor himself. It might get them to consider someone else for the next production.
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