 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 03:52
I am a big fan of BG products!!
I find, in the catalog from Weiner Music, a new ligature from BG. Revelation ligature with silver support. I like both Revelation and Super Revelation, and the new one is also interesting.......have anyone tried this??
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-08-24 07:17
Hmm doesn't stand in the BG catalog.... but there some photo's already on the internet,
BG Revelation Silver Plated
I also like the BG products, but play currently the Eddie Daniëls II ligature.... I'm not going to switch anymore (unless a find one that plays even better![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) )
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-08-24 15:49
It appears to be very similar to the BG Super Revelation that I play. My insert is gold with a green piece piece of cord where that one is silver with red. Interesting. I guess we could get into another long discussion of whether or not color makes a difference in the sound.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-08-24 16:04
That funny David. I always preferred Gold to silver for vibrations. Silver vibrates too much for me.
Opinions opinions...
Michael
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 16:50
So.......just curious, what ligature is Mr.Morales using? I know he sounds wonderful on any equipment.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 17:07
"That funny David. I always preferred Gold to silver for vibrations. Silver vibrates too much for me. "
-------------------
And then there's those who don't believe that it makes a difference at all......
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 17:10
Warning: bluntness follows.....
Diplomacy: OFF
Anyone who believes the plating metal on a ligature has an audible effect on the sound of the instrument is badly self-deluded and is easy prey for marketeers. And probably highly superstitious to boot. To these people, I'd suggest some science classes or at least reading a few elementary books on acoustics.
Flame suit: ON
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 17:17
You are right, Mr. Charette. I posted my own answer, but got curious again.......
Thank you for warning, David Spiegelthal.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 17:44
Sorry Dave, but I disagree.
Blindfolded I disagree, with earplugs on - well, with earplugs in I probably couldn't tell the difference,
Not only in feel, but in sound too.
Blindfold me, put me in a room with Pamela Anderson as the adjudicator, and at least I'll have a good time trying.....
;)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 17:45
btw - the scientists say one thing, the players say another.....
now who are you going to believe?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 17:50
DavidB -- what makes you think that "scientists" and "players" are separate camps, who disagree?
Meanwhile, I'd suggest you avoid buildings having a 13th floor, just in case you're right.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-08-24 18:55
David S., In the late 60s or early 70s my cousin was in a band named "The 13th Floor Elevators." No one know where he is now. Must've stepped off.
I thought Ricardo Morales used the BG Super Revelation. But, as with his instruments, he's probably tried many over the years.
The best thing to do is try them for yourself and find what works best for you and the sound you like. I've used the BG Super Rev. since about 1996 and haven't felt a need to change. Before that I tried almost everything from Ligaphone to opera ligatures--metal and fabric.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 19:38
Because often they are David...........
There are things that can't be measured scientifically that can be perceived by the body.
And no, I'm not superstitious at all - just one of the "players" who disagree.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 20:15
When I first met Ricardo back in 1992, he was using the Rovner Mark III ligature. He soon switched to the BG and has ever since used it.
I have a trial set of the BG Ligatures and have played the gold and silver to compare them to each other. I do find that they play differently.
Gold is the better look (I like the look of Gold better than Silver), but for my playing I do prefer the Silver.
I respect Scientists findings, but if I find otherwise from personal experience, I'll dispute a top scientist with it.
That doesn't mean that I'll necessarily be right, just satisfied
Post Edited (2005-08-24 20:15)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-24 20:59
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> There are things that can't be measured scientifically that can
> be perceived by the body.
An example would be?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 21:09
When I was a Backun's shop last year, I tried barrels and bells for several hours and my wife also listened.
The materials did make a difference.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-24 23:49
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> When I was a Backun's shop last year, I tried barrels and bells
> for several hours and my wife also listened.
>
> The materials did make a difference.
And the sound difference isn't measurable?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-24 23:51
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Material differences for one.........
First you have to submit to an unbiased test.
Then, after you've satisfied the criteria (you can discern a difference) we let the scientists see if they can measure the difference.
If they can't, I'll concede.
Saying you can tell the difference doesn't make it so. The same goes for the scientists. Proof is needed on both sides.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-25 03:01
yup - agreed. I do tend to go with science and the scientific method (heck, I married 2 scientists...). But then again, the human body is very, very sensitive.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-25 04:47
Actually, I feel the difference between regular Revelation and Super Revelation........the difference exists.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-08-25 08:35
I think that's the most important factor, feeling the difference...
What if two ligatures (identical but manufactured from a other material) sound the same, but one of the materials feels better and you'll have to buy one of them? Let say that the best one costs 10 dollar more.... We would all buy the better one would we not?
Maybe there isn't a real difference and is it all just imagination, but I really do play much better when I play on a comfortable setup.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-25 10:49
OpusII wrote:
> Maybe there isn't a real difference and is it all just
> imagination, but I really do play much better when I play on a
> comfortable setup.
No one's arguing that point; the discussion has been whether or not a few microns of plating on an otherwise identical ligature makes a consistent difference, and whether, if it does, it is measurable.
The answer to that today is "no one knows". There's not, to my knowledge, been a well constructed experiment using a statistically significant number number of ligatures.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-25 11:14
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Good thesis topic (it hasn't been done already?????)
AFAIK, no, and I doubt very much that a physics/acoustics major looking for a Ph.D. could use this as their thesis.
We need another intelligent dabbler like Art Benade, or maybe UNSW can do the experiment someday and add it to their coordinated gold mine:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-25 11:15
Opus II - no, I wouldn't. I'd play the one which felt better. If both felt exactly the same than I'd buy the less costly one and laugh at the more $$ one. If I went solely on looks I'd prefer Gold, but feel and sound are what count (both) to me and I go with that.
Same for the Vandoren Optimum Ligature for Clarinet being used on Sax - I prefer the sound and feel on that too instead of the brass plating for it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-25 11:23
Even possibly as a Masters Project. Double blind tests are a great way to cut the psychoacoustical from the real thing.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-08-25 11:49
Mark Charette wrote:
Quote:
No one's arguing that point; the discussion has been whether or not a few microns of plating on an otherwise identical ligature makes a consistent difference, and whether, if it does, it is measurable.
The answer to that today is "no one knows". There's not, to my knowledge, been a well constructed experiment using a statistically significant number number of ligatures.
That's correct, the discussion was indeed whether or not a few microns of plating on an otherwise identical ligature makes a consistent difference, and whether, if it does, it is measurable.
Only wanted to say, that the feeling is probably more important to the player than thinking about the possible difference of a few microns.....
But why is it that some people feel something different with a other material, when the listeners can't tell the difference in sound with the other material? Would it be that the reed vibrates the same, but the response of creating the vibration changes? Or would the frequencies also be changed?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-25 12:39
OpusII wrote:
> But why is it that some people feel something different with a
> other material, when the listeners can't tell the difference in
> sound with the other material?
That, indeed, is the question. Does a player consistently "feel" a difference with a plated ligature vs. an identical non-plated ligature, or do they only think they do? Until that answer is known, hypothesizing is moot. Only if the answer is "they (or even only one person!) consistently feel a difference" does the realm of hypothesis and experimentatin to determine the "why" exist.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-08-25 16:46
Key plating, ligature plating. aluminum anodizing.
From a "strength of materials" standpoint, it is not unreasonable to expect that the surface treatment of a metallic part can change the way it vibrates.
Here's the logic.
1.) Imagine that the part --say a key-- is made up of extremely thin layers of material bonded together in such a way that they can not slip relative to one another.
2.) Now, imagine this layered part bent. The layers on the outer part of the bend stretch, and those on the inner part compress. Some layer near the middle doesn't stretch at all.
3.)The layers furthest away from the un-stretched/ uncompressed center layer stretch and compress the most.
4.) The amount of resistance to the stretching is, for linear elastic materials (which clarinet keys and ligatures are --else they'd bend under normal use), proportional to the stretching and the material stiffness.
5.) The outer layers, since they get distorted the most, have the most effect on the stiffness of the part.
6.) Now, if the outer layers are changed to a different material, the stiffiness of the part will be altered. If the material is plated with a stiff material, the part will become more stiffer and more resistant to bending. If the plating is not so stiff, the part will become more flexible.
7.) Similarly, when the part is vibrating, the outer layers not only stretch/compress more, they move faster than the inner layers. The mass of the outer layers also thus has more effect on the vibration than the mass of the inner layers.
Analysis.
This whole thing could be done up properly using integral calculus (or a finite element computer model) to compute the change in vibrational properties of a clarinet key or ligature (the key is problem is probably easier). In lieu of that (tough) task, the above structural mechanics can be summarized.
Plating a clarinet part with a stiff material will (slightly) increase its resonant frequency. Plating the part with a dense material will (slightly) lower its resonant frequency. Since stiffness and density are BOTH material properties, selecting a material to give a desired result is necessary.
Lets have a look at some material properties (I hope the following table lines up)
Silver Gold Nickel-Silver Aluminum Aluminum Oxide
Stiffness 83 78 70 126 344
Density 10.5 29.3 27.7 2.7 4.0
Speed of 2600 1730 3800 5100 9300
Sound
Why the speed of sound? Its the (square root of) the ratio of material stiffness to density. If we want to stiffen the key, we plate it with a material that has a higher speed of sound than the base metal.
Thus, it appears that plating a nickel-silver key withe either silver or gold will lower its vibration frequency. (To be fair, of course, the comparison should be made to a nickel-silver key plated with nickel-silver -so the shapes of the two parts are the same.) The gold plated part will have a lower vibrational frequency than the silver plated part.
Thus, I conclude that there is a real, physical difference between gold and silver plated parts. The difference may be perceptable to an astute listener.
Real-life example:
Here's why I included the Aluminum and Aluminum Oxide (Al2O3) columns in the above chart.
In the 1980's manufacturers started offering hard anodized bicycle rims. They took a soft aluminum rim (aluminum is about 1/3 as stiff as steel) and altered the surface through anodizing to convert the outer portion of the rim to aluminum oxide --a very stiff ceramic. The anodic layer is about .004-inches (.1 millimeter) thick on a .06-inch (1.5-mm) thick aluminum rim, or about 5% of the total thickness. The coating is very stiff relative to the base material and raises the rim's vibration frequency. It also is a lot stronger than the base aluminum (although brittle like a china dish).
This innovation GREATLY increased the durability of bicycle wheels made with the hard anodized rims. The bicycle analogy only shows the effect of surface treatment. The bike wheel problem was one of a structural/elastic failure, not a vibration problem.
Sorry for the long post, but this sort of argument is ameneable to analysis. The detailed examination of the problem (like that of the myth of blown-out clarinets) is a great subject for a doctor's dissertation; and fragments of the problem would provide the meat for several master's degree studies.
Bob Phillips
Dr. Engineering
UC, Berkeley 1969
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-25 19:17
Bob Phillips wrote:
> The anodic layer is about
> .004-inches (.1 millimeter) thick on a .06-inch (1.5-mm) thick
> aluminum rim, or about 5% of the total thickness.
That is a significant depth. Typical gold plating averages beteen 0.25 to 5 microns (.00025 to .005 mm) on a 1.5mm (approx) substrate.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-25 19:33
I used to do some sonar system mechanical design which included measurement and modeling of the vibration attenuation characteristics of various materials, and thus far we've neglected the damping characteristics ("loss tangents") of the materials in question -- a complex (frequency-dependent) parameter which probably has as much effect as the 'real' properties such as stiffness and density. But as Mark has pointed out, the platings we're talking about are SO thin that it probably doesn't matter what they are --- there simply isn't enough plating material thickness to have any appreciable effect on the vibrational characteristics of the ligature overall.
Be that as it may, until a complete and properly conducted series of tests is conducted by someone with far more money and time than I, with a statistically-significant number of samples, I suppose I'll have to take it "on faith" that David B. can hear the difference in ligature plating materials. His belief is less farfetched than some things people believe........
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2005-08-25 22:40
I read somewhere(maybe trumpet BBS)gold cannot be plated directly on brass:to put gold plating on brass material, it is necessary to plate nickel or silver 'sub'-plating to adhere it.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-26 13:33
I contacted BG company to find out about the silver support. They say it is a solid silver support. They also say that the sound becomes "more brilliant" compared to other materials. They advise me to try them at music store to notice the difference. I will try them sometime I see them at music store.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-26 13:39
David S said:
"I suppose I'll have to take it "on faith" that David B. can hear the difference in ligature plating materials. His belief is less farfetched than some things people believe........"
I interpreted him to mean that he could "feel" the difference more than "hear" it. We've had many threads which have basically said that an accomplished player will sound like they want to sound on pretty much any equipment. Maybe he's (consciously or not) adjusting his embouchure to get the sound he expects, so that the difference wouldn't be audible, but he could feel it. I suppose he could do a blind test (how, I don't know) to see if he can tell the difference when he doesn't know which one he's playing.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-26 13:45
I go for "more brilliant" and they with my other equipment tone it down or not depending on the need.
I find that the more brilliant my tone is, the easier it is to shatter glass with
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-26 14:05
The placebo effect is very real....
Bob Draznik
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