 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dana
Date: 2005-07-06 13:57
My son will be starting band this year and the band instructor has each child "try-out" each instrument to see if it suits them. He claims that the mouthpiece and reed are "sterilized" between each child. The mouthpiece and reed are sprayed and wiped, however the reed is not even dry between players. Sterilized or not, I have refused to let my son tryout unless he can bring his own instrument! What are your opinions on this? Is this normal practice for band instructors?
Dana
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-07-06 14:18
Dana,
IMO you are right to refuse to let your son play on a previously used reed, and a mouthpiece needs more than a "spray and wipe" before it can be used safely by a second player. The list of diseases that can be transmitted this way is long and some of them are very serious.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-07-06 14:55
they aren't sterilizied, they are sanatizied. sterilizing would require burning the reed and melting the mouthpiece down to a liquid state
anyway, this is standard practice, we do it with dozens of kids each year at each school. we use an alcohol based spray on the mouthpiece and reeds.
if you're uncomfortable, bring a 2-pack of # 2.5 reeds. no need to bring your own instrument or mouthpiece. alcohol kills most pathogens.
my opinion is you are over reacting. we use this process on thousands of prospective students all over the country every year. don't worry about it.
we have immune systems for a reason, and as i said, alcohol kills most stuff.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-07-06 14:56
IMHO, based upon information from doctors, the use, of the "extreme term" sterilization, is a misnomer here, and more appropriate terms such as cleaning, disinfecting etc are more correct. I would suggest consulting a dictionary. I routinely clean mps and reeds by immersion in [colorless] vinegar, which is about 5% acetic acid in water. Probably immersion in "Reed Life", available from "The Doctor" and possibly music stores, which I believe is diluted hydrogen peroxide with a small amount of a "humectant", likely glycerine?, added, would be a preferable "disinfecting". Of course to avoid using another's mp and reed for clarinet or sax, I'd suggest obtaining a mouthpiece, [clean it yourself, but in only cold or slightly warm water] and buy new, soft [#2] reeds for tryout purposes. The fitting of your cl mp to the inst's barrel, or the sax mp to it's neck may present a problem, which the teacher should be able to solve. Sorry for a very wordy answer, best wishes, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-07-06 16:15
pewd,
"Kills most pathogens" is analogous to having a car with brakes that work most of the time.
IMO it's irresponsible and unfair to gamble like this with another's health. Somebody did exactly that to me in high school and 45 years later I still get cold sores (herpes infection) as a result. Fortunately it responds well to medication, but it is still a nuisance. Nowadays it could be HIV that is being transmitted.
I hope you will reconsider your standard practice.
Regards,
Hans
Post Edited (2005-07-06 16:16)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-06 17:54
"my opinion is you are over reacting. we use this process on thousands of prospective students all over the country every year. don't worry about it."
Very reassuring I'm sure.
Bob Draznik
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-06 18:08
As a band director myself, and an overprotective mother, here are my two cents:
1. You cannot get HIV from a mouthpiece.
2. However, I second the idea of bringing your own reed. The mouthpiece can be cleaned between students, the reed can't.
3. That situation may prohibit some students from trying. I think you will find that the students themselves are uncomfortable with that situation, and some will be put off by the process of "sharing". It's funny, some of the most scruffy kids are very particular about what they put their mouth on.
I guess that's my three cents.
Sue Tansey
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-06 18:11
Trying out an instrument to see if "it suits them" is almost stupid.
Typically nothing will "suit them" first off. Takes a lesson or 2 to get that clue, not a quick honk or not.
Cause that method is a great way to weed out anyone that you don't want in the program playing that instrument (guys playing flute, etc).
Not needed whatsoever. What is effective is to play for them and let them pick out what the like to listen to as the choosen instrument, not the band directors agenda for his own instrumentation.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-06 18:14
btw - yes, the reed can be cleaned easily between each try. Just using an alcohol swab (the kind that the doctor use for shots) does a very good job of cleaning the reed and the mouthpiece. Taking off the reed to get both sides as well as the facing of the mouthpiece is a good idea.
22 years of teaching and I've never gotten sick from a student - ever. Been using the swabs since 1985.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-07-06 18:15
ok - so - you're the head director
you have 150 kids coming in to test on trumpt, tbone, horn, euphonium, tuba, percussion, clarinet, oboe, bassoon, flute, saxophone.
most kids test on 3-4 different instruments.
you don't have budget to purchase and then throw away 600 mouthpieces.
what would you suggest every band director in the country do?
current practice is to use commercial sanatizing products (sanimist, sterisol, etc).
2nd scenario - you go to a music store, you want to try out a few mouthpieces. what do you think they clean them with?
they sure dont trash new ones after folks try them out.
you clean and sanatize them and put them back on the shelf.
what other option would you suggest?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2005-07-06 18:27
Correct - you can not get HIV from a mouthpiece - -
However remote, there is the possibility of transferring body fluids (blood is one) which carry disease - - they could possibly be left on a mouthpiece from the previous kid's bleeding mouth, gums, lips, etc...and then immediately transferred to the next kid with an open sore from a split lip, open mouth sores or bleeding gums, etc.
I would not recommend sharing the mouthpiece without it being thoroughly cleaned/sanitized - and I would not share reeds at all.
If you are uncomfortable using another person's reed immediately after they use it, bring your own. A # 2 or 2 1/2 for a beginner would be fine. Don't worry about which brand of reed - that compulsive search for the perfect reed will come later.
Tom Piercy
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-06 18:50
David, am I correctly reading your post? You don't think guys should play flute? I've got some great male flute students who would be surprised to hear that.
Sue Tansey
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Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-06 18:55
Sharing mouthpieces is one thing.. It's a solid object that can be easily sanitized...thats what we do at my music store... We'd be bankrupt if we threw away all the "tested" mouthpieces.
As for reeds... teacher should stop being cheap, go out and buy a few Novapack RICOS and thats that.. It'll cost him $100 or so and everyone will be happy and healthy
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-07-06 19:03
I don't think I can add much to the discussion on sterilization/sanitization, but would like to second David Blumberg's comment about trying out instruments to see if they suit the students. I thoroughly think that the student should be allowed to select an instrument based on what he/she wants to play. If a boy wants to play flute or a girl wants to play percussion, so be it. They are more likely to enjoy playing and more likely to practice if they are playing an instrument they want to play.
Are there really many physical reasons a student couldn't start out on basically any instrument? Most that I could think of, finger reach, arm length, etc. don't have anything to do with actually putting one's mouth on the instrument.
If this approach was taken, the whole discussion of sterilization/sanitization would be moot.
When I started clarinet, no one tested me to see if it would be appropriate. When my daughter started taking school music, no one tested her. She just had to make up her own mind as to which of her two preferred instruments -- clarinet or violin -- most interested her. (She chose violin.)
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-07-06 19:04
this is standard practice. in many situations, there are upwards of 50-60 kids, and perhaps only one to two hours to test them all. there just isn't the time, or a budget in many cases, to change reeds between each student. many music stores also have a testing area where kids who either couldn't test at school or didn't have permission to do so, can come in a try all the instruments at a more leisurely pace.
the mouthpiece and reeds, in my experience, are always cleaned up (disinfected is a good term here) between each student. some kids don't even want to try the clarinet, so not all kids will test on it. (unless of course, the director wishes it) when the reed gets visibly gummy, bloody, etc., it is usually removed and tossed. i would have to agree with pewd in this one.
testing is done for two reasons:
1) to determine what instrument appeals most to the student
2) to determine what instrument the student will be the most successful on. not all kids have the ability, or desire, to play the flute. it is shown that a student will stay in band longer if they get more success in that first year. this means playing something they can do well, not whatever Uncle Jeb has sitting in his attic.
bottom line, if you don't feel comfortable, that's fine. take your child to a good music store and have them tested there. more resources are available and you can also ask questions yourself.
that is all.
~~JK
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-07-06 19:11
Just so that we are all talking "apples" in our posts: sterilize - the complete removal or destruction of all living organisms, disinfect - removal, inactivation, or killing of infectious organisms, sanitize - the physical or chemical removal of some of the organisms, germicidal or viralcidal - ability to kill organisms (does not quantitate the number or the amount of total organisms killed). All disinfectants are licensed by the EPA and there is a specified time of contact and temperature range of activity. These later specifications are rarely if ever given on the product label. The HIV virus is only transmitted by an infected person's bodily fluids to another person's bodily fluids - e.g. blood to blood, etc. Other viruses may be transmitted by contact or by airborne routes. Our mouths contain many bacteria in the normal healthy individual and there are bacteria and molds throughout our environment which rarely cause disease. Our saliva contains many bacteria which rarely cause disease in otherwise normal individuals by transfer of saliva to the mucous membranes of the mouth of other individuals (e.g kissing)
This seems to be a balancing act and a practical problem for band directors. The common products sold for reducing or eliminating pathogenic organisms contain alcohol - either isopropyl or ethyl, or tertiary ammonium compounds. They are disinfectants but require a certain contact time and temperature range to statistically reduce the number and strains of bacteria and virus to a low (never all) level which will reduce the chances of transferring and infectious agent to some acceptable level. Anything strong enough to sterilize the reed or mouthpiece in a short period of time would destroy them.
(Disclaimer - I have not tested these treatments with a panel of pathogenic organisms, and this is only a suggestion and not an expert opinion or recommendation for use)
A good rinse with tap water removes a majority of bacteria and viruses from a mouthpiece.
A one minute dip in 3% hydrogen peroxide with an after rinse with water may be the only practical treatment for reeds. A new reed would of course be preferable.
A quick spray and wipe (with a disposable paper towel) with the commercial products containing alcohol or tertiary ammonium chemicals will reduce the total number of bacteria and virus organisms on a mouthpiece surface by only about ten fold (personal experimentation).
My own use - When I let customers try mouthpieces at shows I take along an old fashioned (although they are still commercially available from beauty supply houses) barbers comb sterilizer (a glass jar with a long handled mesh basket at the bottom) and a concentrate of Barbasol (tm), diluted on site with tap water, which barbers and beauticians use to disinfect their plastic and rubber combs, and instruments. The specifications for the concentrate specify a contact time of about a minute at room temperature to kill "all" pathogenic bacteria and viruses. This is much better than the commercial sprays or alcohol products. A couple of these jars could be used by a band director for both woodwind and brass mouthpieces efficiently - just my humble opinion.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-07-06 20:18
I agree with the Doctor on this one.
After working in the dental office for 12 years I have become very aware of what can be transmitted from person to person via the mouth. A couple of our biggest concerns were for the herpatic (herpes) viruses and the hepatitis virus as far as trasmission to us and other patients was concerned. HIV is not as easily transmitted but still in one's thought's when it comes to being careful with students.
Also,.........Anyone that has a compromised immune system will not be able to fight off the bacteria and viruses that most people can. Most people with a compromised immune system don't walk around with it written on their forehead either so you'd just better be prepared to be safe instead of sorry. I think the way the Doctor suggests cleaning the mouthpiece is sufficient but pitch the reeds between players and let each kid have their own.
I also think kids should play what they want to. But....had I done that I'd be a flute player and I was awful at it when I tried it. I was much better at clarinet. Glad I at least tried them out first. BTW.....I have a son ( yes, a boy) that's a very good flute player. What's wrong with that?? The most famous one I know is a guy.....James Galway.
Rebecca
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-06 20:37
Somebody didn't read my posting correctly - I wasn't saying that male flutists aren't ok, I was making a statement of what some of the band directors do as a discriminatory policy.
It makes it all too simple to expect a kid to get a sound out without any instruction on how to do it.
btw - a male flute student of mine won 2nd in the Air Force Band Competition and a competition at Curtis. The statement I made was from what I have seen with some band directors who wanted to control their numbers (which I don't approve of!). Sort of like "oh, you have 2 arms, you can play the Violin - perfect fit!!"
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-06 21:16
Okay, David. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I knew a guy like that. He had a thing for low brass, and told anyone with two arms, "Hey, I bet you'd make a great trombone player". You couldn't even hear the rest of his band for all the low brass.
A few years ago I had seventeen percussionists start, and all but two or three are still playing - now that they're in the middle school, and are part of three grades' worth of drummers, you should hear that band! You need earplugs to be within half a mile of them. But they're happy as clams, and I think that's great.
Sue Tansey
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-07-07 01:44
Thanks for clearing things up David. I thought it was a rather strange comment coming from you and should have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Rebecca
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-07 14:20
I have not been involved in elementary school band programs for many years so perhaps I'm missing something. You mean to tell me that prospective band members haven't already had lessons on an instrument of their choice and they are "trying out" for band!!! If this is the case then maybe the schools involved have created their own monster.......and the taxpayers are the victims.
Bob Draznik
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-07 14:31
Of course they haven't had lessons before! They're nine or ten years old! This is public school and we offer band as an option available to all students, provided they can afford to rent or buy and instrument. We start them from scratch, from how to open your instrument case...etc.
No, they don't have to try out. Some directors prefer to let the students sample various instruments to find out what they prefer and what they might be best suited for, while in some schools they might demo the instruments themselves, or have their local instrument rental company bring in people to demo. Then the kids choose, and you're off and running.
I have had exactly two cases where students come to fourth grade having had private lessons already. In both cases, there were highly involved parents with very intelligent and well prepared kids.
Sue Tansey
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-07 16:26
Wow - I start 2-3 every year myself before they hit the band room.
Typically they hit the ground running and never look back
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-07-08 01:33
I think there's just a mix up on words here. We let our kids "try out" the instruments here in our district before we rent them to the parents. The kid may like how the instrument sounds upon demonstration but once they try to play it they may not be able to get a sound on it or may just not like it. That's why they "try it out". They don't "try out" as in an audition. This is where the whole reed issue comes in. I still think everone needs their own reed for this process.
Rebecca
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-07-08 04:54
I don't think it's a huge deal. If you are scared for your child then bring in some reeds for him. They do dissinfect with wipes and sprays between each child though. I didn't like having my mouth on anything that any other person had had their mouth on when I was in elementary, but I think I was fine with this whole instrument trying out process. It's actually pretty fun, your son will enjoy it!
I remember that I had my eye set on the French Horn. I bought all of this French Horn gear-earrings, holder, pencils, etc. as well as a mouthpiece. The junior high let me borrow one the summer before 5th grade and I produced a really nice sound on it and we even tried out instruments at the music store.
5th grade instrument tryouts come along and I think I tried every single one. I could make a noise on all of them I think. Suddenly when it was time to pick I picked the clarinet. I still don't know why really. I was very successful throughout elementary school and never practiced and still remained at the top, which I should've practiced. The clarinet just came natural to me. I still wonder what would've happened if I chose the French Horn instead though...
I think the whole tryout process is great and beneficial. My best friend wanted to play a woodwind and I told her that she should try everything and she ended up sounding the best on trumpet and chose that.
Good luck to your son!
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