 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-08 15:29
Has anyone else noticed that a significant number of clarinetists appear to have a great deal of fear and trepidation about playing? Along with that there also seems to be a lot of introspection, self-analysis, and just plain excessive worrying.
Honestly, playing clarinet is not a life-or-death issue --- it should be fun, it should be rewarding, it should be pleasurable. Sometimes all of us could benefit by taking a step back and putting it all in perspective. I don't mean to single anyone out, because we all have these neurotic feelings from time to time, but the player expressing fear about playing in community band is a fine example of what I'm talking about -- I mean, come on folks, COMMUNITY BAND! A bunch of regular people, with regular jobs and lives, getting together once a week or so to play for fun --- why in the WORLD would we be concerned about playing with them? We're not talking solo recital at Carnegie Hall, or auditioning for the Cleveland Orchestra......
Enough said -- everybody take a deep breath, stop worrying, stop analyzing yourself. As Frank Zappa said, "shut up and play yer guitar!".
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-08 15:48
Hmm.... I'm guessing that I sparked this thread? Oh well, it will be a good point for discussion and I may get something out of it. Maybe neurotic is even a good adjective too...
Well, there are different curcimstances where people can go "neurotic". Some, in my case, get scared and over analytical because they are SO MUCH younger then their colleagues. I know that I will be the youngest player in the orchestra. Although, maybe that's not something to get scared about. Maybe it's something to be ambitious and brave about that's executed with sheer brilliance and musicality?
I think you are right. I should just take a deep breath and just play. I have a feeling that I may be going back to look at this thread every once and awhile.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-08 16:05
Carrie, you may have sparked my thread to some extent, but posts like yours have been common here on the BB as long as it has existed, so don't feel singled out. And I know how you feel about being a young player in a group of older folks --- when I was in high school I was invited to play bass clarinet in a long-standing community orchestra comprised almost exclusively of adults, and although I felt a bit intimidated for about the first five minutes of the first rehearsal, I soon felt very comfortable there. You'll be fine!
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-06-08 16:08
As I always say to people I play with, "Relax, have fun, and try not to think about the millions of people tuning in to you on TV and radio."
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2005-06-08 16:09)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-08 16:25
DS,
You are absolutley correct about too much "introspection, self-analysis, and just plain excessive worrying." As you well know, in the old days (before the internet and bulletin boards or when dionsaurs roamed the earth) we just had to suck it up and do the job.
"Those were the days my friend, I thought they'd never end...."
HRL
PS Some things are just too personal to have the whole clarinet world know about them. I don't believe that this is a chatroom.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-06-08 17:23
David - just got a frantic call from your psychoanalyst who told me that they have been trying for days to find you to bring you back home to the "mental rehabilitation center". He also said that you should leave your broom which you contend is a bass clarinet in the janitor's closet and just come back alone. He was abhored when I told him that you were posting happy messages on the BB and said that this was a sign that intensive psychotherapy had totally failed in your case and that your reality check was scewed too far into the mystical bliss world. Hope this humor bomb finds you happily playing your broomstick and spouting polly-anna quips.
L.Omar Henderson
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-06-08 17:36
Alas, poor David S, projecting his "clarinet neuroses" onto other members of the BB. The psychotherapy does indeed seem to have failed. Thanks for the smile, Doctor.
David S wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that a significant number of clarinetists appear to have a great deal of fear and trepidation about playing? ...Honestly, playing clarinet is not a life-or-death issue --- it should be fun, it should be rewarding, it should be pleasurable.
Er, yes, as a matter of fact I have noticed For some it is a putting- food-on- the- table issue, but most those who do put food on the table playing seem to be quite practical about these things. Perhaps that is why they are able to continue their work.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-06-08 18:04
Hank Lehrer said:
Quote:
Some things are just too personal to have the whole clarinet world know about them.
You mean like why does it burn when I --
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-06-08 18:06
Clarinetists aren't alone in being a bit "Neurotic" about performing.. From personal experience shooting "famous" people out there I know most do fear facing the audience. I've heard that more then a few major celebrities actually get physically sick before getting out on stage, but when their name is announced, the band strikes up, the director shouts "action" they all get out there and do their thing, because they're professionals. Stage fright is common, scariest thing I ever had to do was talk to a room full of NYU students, stayed up all night thinking about it!
Fred
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-08 18:40
Well, now—there are a lot of angles to this.
The humorous and ironic posts on this subject have been attempts to cut through the absurdity of all this anxiety.
Still, the anxiety and neurosis is quite understandable and inevitable.
Consider a recent thread about what it takes to be a professional clarinetist, as in one who makes a living strictly by playing. Reading through the thread pretty much gives the impression that to be a professional you have to be perfect—never miss a note, never miss a rehearsal or come in late, never miss a gig even to go on vacation with your family—etc.
Of course, none of us is perfect. So those who have the skills, talent, and drive to be professionals in this sense learn to make the choice of how to play the game of approximating perfection in some ways and faking it in other ways.
Some manage the stress quite well; others don’t and pay a high price.
Very few of us will play in that rarified symphony orchestra world. But the rest of us also want to sound good and to play better. And many of us spend quite a bit of coin on equipment, sometimes wondering if the time and money are well spent. In some ways it is more difficult to stay motivated when you know that it can’t be all or nothing. Even people who enjoy practicing need to have something driving them in order to keep at it.
So, where there is a strong drive one might not be too surprised to find some neurosis lurking close by.
Reading between the lines of Hank Lehrer’s post, I think he is saying that the anxiety has always been there, but now people are more willing to make themselves vulnerable by talking about it.
Hank is right that sometimes it is better (and safer) just to suck it up. It might be especially risky to spill one’s guts on an internet discussion board. On the other hand, it is good to have permission to be human. Recently I read somewhere that it is just now becoming acceptable for clarinetists to wear neck straps. In the past it has been seen as a sign of weakness.
M
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-06-08 18:49
I agree that with non professional community orchestras the whole idea is to play and have fun, and that a lot of unnecessary angst is displayed in these pages
that being said, there are about 40-50 people in the orchestra trying to have fun playing music fairly well - these may be people who work hard all day at their jobs and are trying to get the most out of doing something they love - music - in their free time. you wouldn't want to be responsible for spoiling that by playing poorly or being unprepared. that's where some anxiety understandably comes into play.
I for one am extremely self conscious (anxious) about intonation - it's really no fun to play with way out of tune musicians, and I wouldn't want to inflict that on anyone else (although I know I do)
but maybe the angst displayed here is symptomatic of the internet, which makes it easy - you really want to read fear and loathing on the on-line, go to some of the progressive blogs out there.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-06-08 20:45
You aren't paranoid. We really are laughing at you.
Now go sheik yerbouti.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-08 21:07
Markael, great post! I think you've described very elegantly the balancing act that is musical endeavor.
I'm sure there is sometimes a cathartic benefit to expressing one's anxieties in public (or semi-public), but, as I believe Hank was saying, there is the danger of going too far and getting into a vicious cycle of self-analysis.
Confidence, to a certain degree, is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as is fear. I therefore propose that we all adopt the approach I shall name "Positive Self-Delusion", for which we recognize (analytically) that as musicians we have much to learn and a long way to go, yet (emotionally) we are certain that it is a wonderful thing to produce music, and that our fellow musicans and the general public are glad to hear us play.
Or something like that................
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-08 21:36
I recently viewed for the first time "Wild Man Blues", the Woody Allen docu. Woody is certainly the model for the neurotic clarinet player.....and I love his playing and empathize with his insecurity. Well, as regards, Dave's kickoff....what can you expect from people who suck on a thumb substitute!
Playing clarinet for a living has to be a precarious perch. How many are there....compared, for example, to accountants. And....don't you have to be a bit different to play the same thing over and over and over trying to get it perfect. Interesting post Dave.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-06-09 02:16
I dunno if it is just clarinetists. All the symphony musicians I knew in the 1950's were in analysis when nobody else was in analysis. The clarinetists were actually the most normal, so far as I could tell at the time.
On the other hand, in addition to competitiveness, perfectionism and general performance anxiety, missing an entrance could spell employment disaster in many organizations then. This would make any normal person at least appear to be neurotic. Are things the same now?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-06-09 06:40
What follows is a ridiculously long tirade on the state of clarineting and classical music. Read at your own risk.
I think clarinetists may be more neurotic because of the historical perception of the instrument. It is very agile and very dangerous, and is, in the orchestra, very frequently used in a do-or-die soloistic manner. Quite frankly, of all the instruments in the orchestra, if I had to name an instrument which is given "neurotic" passages the most often and has the most "neurotic" sound, I would give the title to the clarinet, with oboe running a not-too-distant second. Brass players and bassoonists get the job done, percussionists have fun, strings can be quite neurotic but also do a good bit of lovely flowing passages and can fudge here and there without anyone noticing much. Flutes get the stuck-up "pretty me" passages, and share some with the oboe. Watch any orchestral performance, though, and see which instrument seems almost expected to have a bouncy, self-satisfied grin. You can just feel the tension in their "look at me, I'm having a good time playing these bouncy licks. I LIKE doing this. REALLY!!!! THESE INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT THREE BARS MEAN THE WORLD TO ME AND I DARN WELL WANT THE WHOLE WORLD TO KNOW!!!!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!" expression, raised eyebrows, and puckered lips. Some do better than others at keeping this under wraps, but watch for it: it's almost always there. It drives me mad just watching it. You're playing an ostinato, buddy; Hold Still!
Anyways...
Aside from that little outburst that may or may not give insight into my not pursuing an orchestral career, I do think that the clarinet often comes off as "Look at me, I shall show you that I am having fun" rather than actually having it. I suddenly remember my world music class, where the teacher would tell us about all these musical cultures, a good bit of which were percussion. In the good majority of them, the phrase "just having fun" would pop up, alongside the fascinating instruments, oral tradition, and training. I think that we as clarinetists, and perhaps "classical" musicians in general, do not value having fun with music as highly as perhaps we should. We all like listening to Victor Borge and PDQ Bach, but dismiss them as "humorous and non-serious" in academic courses. We get so hung up on how it's "supposed to sound" and on making ourselves technically perfect that we are afraid to take chances because they may lead to failure.
There is so much that must be done to play an instrument such as the clarinet. Blowing the air. Moving the fingers. Playing each note on the page. Of the correct pitch. And length. And attack. And release. And dynamic. And tempo. At the same time as the rest of the ensemble. In tune. In tune. In tune. With some shape to the phrase. Following the conductor. Playing the first note of groupings a bit longer. Listening. And so on.
These are all things that can be done, and worked on, quantifiably. And it is difficult to do them all. Extremely difficult. Once you can do most of them fairly well, it will sound like music. The more you can do each of them, the more it sounds like music. This is encouraging, and makes you happy because it increases the prospect of later fun-having. Soon, you think, you can make it musical.
But by this point, it is too late. The concert is today. You started making it "musical" by doing things on the "musical" checklist a month ago, but you've just been following instructions. Like everyone else does. It never occurred to you that fun and musicality could be a journey, rather than a result. We all say we have fun in the rehearsals, but how often did you feel like smiling because you actually like the musical experience, and not because it finally "didn't go wrong" and "didn't fall apart" and "didn't sound bad" and you "didn't miss that note?"
Musicality is an experience, not a formula, and while certain formulaic elements can help it along, there is only so much they can do.
So often in the classical world I feel that performances are dictated by what didn't happen. "I played all the notes right" translates to "I didn't miss any." "We were very together" becomes "We didn't fall apart." "We were in tune" is "We didn't have crashing dissonances."
So seldom do we come out of a performance saying "I had a complete blast." That doesn't even seem to be a possible goal. Its corresponding negative "I didn't have an awful evening," unlike "We didn't fall apart," is never something you would say afterward.
We frequently lack, as classical performers (especially clarinetists), having "I had a complete blast" even in the vocabulary at most of our concerts. This more than anything else, I think, is what keeps us crazy and audiences nervous, bored, sleepy, or elsewhere.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-06-09 11:32
While chatting with some musicians in the orchestra with which I volunteer, one brass player asked me why I would choose the clarinet, since the clarinet is asked to play extremely fast and complex passages (along with the cello, flute and others as I've seen!). But that's what I personally like about it, besides the lucious sound. But it's precisely that that makes the ride harrowing, too.
Bob D mentioned accountants - I do accounting for my bread and butter and realize that it's not hard for us to make some pretty big oversights that cost our clients big bucks, and some can be sloppy about documentation. Whether or not the client knows is another matter, though. Not until there's an audit, or another accountant shows up to explain that if only this or that was done you could have saved a few thousand dollars, often the client doesn't have a clue. Fortunately we're not like doctors who get to bury their mistakes!! Music isn't like that though because it's all out there like laundry on the line.
Through CT scans and so forth scientists have recently identified changes in brain patterns and the chemicals released while musicians play - the Scientific American article I read compares the scientifically documentable euphoria to that experienced while taking drugs, sex, and eating. That's why we carry on in spite of the hazards! So, teach our students to thrill at their playing, hear the gorgeous notes when they're well supported, be excited when they progress, don't worry too much about mistakes but plug away at improving them - they should be taught that it's OK to love making music! They'll be neurotic enough without our encouraging it.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-09 11:38
Thanks eeb for an interesting analysis. Regarding neckstraps.....they have become the contemporary substitute for the gradually disappearing necktie......thus reminding all males that they are still a subdominant species.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-06-09 12:53
It´s weird every time again to notice how deeply set in the internal hierarchy of professionally approved music demanding high effort and dedication versus amateurs just do it for fun and you hear it no matter how they fret . The only thing about professional musicianship is that if you play what they want you get paid, whereas if you don´t, you´re qualified as an amatuerish impostor whose chosen music is revolting, in every sense.
My confessor has told me it´s okay to tell outright that I´m completely neurotic, that I smell Mozartonians ten miles away, that I suspect tonalisms around every which corner, that I have undergone aggression-against-the-phrase-"well that was interesting"-therapy without any result whatsoever...Admitting that there may not be too many community band members stretching after a decent day´s work and mumbling "man am I glad I can play some multiphonics right now, they´re so unwinding" or fanatic about playing the next Nono piece - to tell a nailbiting person to calm down because after all it´s just xyz is the wrong way completely. If musical developement were left to the socalled professionals all we´d ever get to hear is the tenth million version of some toethumping-humming-along-saccharine stuff. Isn´t it a strong American tradition to seek the high standart amongst the seemingly nobodies? That no matter how high up the capitalist ladder you may be, but go out and put absolutely everyhting in your performance or quit right away? To quote Zappa in this context is flat out cynical, because he was a master example of being bogged down by the socalled professionals, it took him stomach cancer and some 50 odd years to get the "Ensemble Recherche" to play his "Yellow Shark", his bio and discography is but one continuous opposition against musical bigottry and establishment. Yes You´re right to fret and be neurotic about the perfect reed and whether You will make it -but for music´s sake choose a composition/performance that´s worth the risk and just-missed-heartattacks, please! I don´t know anything performed by that mentioned "Cleveland Orchestra", a severe mistake on my part I´m certain, but I know several ensembles risking everything every time they perform and daring to play on the edge constantly. You know what-a Sabine Meyer is mentioned around here on the BBoards somewheres not for the first time, and a handful of other rolemodels, but there´s more dedication and rigour and grinding teeth and plain out joy in any pupil who dares to play outside the form or hit the 20ieth/21st century clarinet than in all those A.-S. Mutter-personas. If You don´t play out there and risk everytime to fluke it completely, if You don´t play things that You just barely manage to play, it´s not worth anything. And that can be done at home on Your sofa just as well as on any stage,and everywhere inbetween.
Markus
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-09 13:19
Markus,
Really funny stuff with "man am I glad I can play some multiphonics right now, they´re so unwinding." I was quite impressed that your confessor has you making certain admissions; perhaps that's part of the therapy?
HRL
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-09 14:09
Markus, I'm very familiar with Zappa's music and his constant struggle with the musical establishment, so I feel obliged to offer an opinion that much of his recorded music was rambling, sloppy and unnecessarily vulgar --- not so much in the interest of promoting an alternative art form to a public eager to hear non-mainstream non-pap, but probably just as much motivated by sheer juvenile rebellion, bad temper and general testiness. I have always admired Zappas's courage, intelligence and dedication, but in fairness to the rest of the world, at least some of the lack of popularity for his music should be attributed to its poor quality. It wasn't completely a conspiracy by the forces of Big Entertainment to quash musical freedom and artistic innovation!
So please don't take my Zappa quote (actually it was the title of one of his albums) as cynical ---- although cynicism might be appropriate as it was a huge component of most of his work.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-06-09 14:37
Why did Dave start this thread about me? And now I find out that, as a strict amateur, I've no right to be neurotic. What am I to do about it and what if someone finds out?
Unfortunately, I was under the impression that, even though both groups I play with are volunteer, I had a right to be neurotic -- at least in the one where I know with fair certainty that everyone else has had more formal musical training than I. (Something I shouldn't have revealed here, as another member of that group reads this board.) How do I stop worrying about being the one who blew (as in "screwed up") a particular passage in concert or fumbled through sight-reading it in rehearsal? How am I to get rid of the fear that someday the conductor may politely ask me to drop out? (I managed to squeak into the group [not literally] and avoid the usual audition process; I would never have considered auditioning for fear of making a complete fool of myself.) Previously, I'd been concerned over my certainty that the other members of the group are thinking to themselves "How'd that incompetent schmuck get to play with us?" Now, I also know that they are thinking "What gives him the right to be neurotic?"
And now that I've posted this, the whole world knows I'm unjustifiably neurotic!
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-09 16:31
I probably did this to Carrie. I asked her if she wanted to play bass in our community orchestra and she wanted to. The clarinet section would, of course, love to have her there but the director is hestitant because of her age and experience. This orchestra is NOT a professional group however, we do play very well. Several of our principals are professors or play professionally elsewhere and many are music teachers in and around our area. I'd say all in all, out of our 75-90 piece group there are only a small handfull that don't posess at least a bachelor's degree or higher in music. I may be wrong but I think that's unusual for a community group. Most high school players aren't even accepted into this orchestra. Carrie only has 3 rehearsals to prove herself on an instrument she doesn't play on a daily basis and we're playing a lot of music. True, it's easy patriotic stuff but she does want to do well. I think all of us do.
For some people that creates a real sense of anxiety and for others it's a tremendous outlet to show off what they can do. I used to be pretty cocky in college and nothing scared me. I could play in front of a huge hall and it didn't phase me. Now, if I cover the principal's part and do the solos in rehearsal it makes me really nervous. I'm also playing for a BUNCH of trained musicians. Many of whom are much more highly schooled than I am. They will KNOW if I mess up. If your're playing for your congregation at church it may not matter as much as everyone thinks you are just wonderful even if you're only half awake and miss several notes. They don't have the music in front of them nor can they read it ( many times).
Carrie will do fine. She will relax once we get her there and she sees that we won't eat her for lunch. One other issue she may have going in her head is that our principal is the professor she MAY be auditioning for to attend his school of music next year as a music major. Something to think about. Carrie, if you hadn't already thought of this. Sorry. Didn't mean to cause you more anxiety. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Rebecca
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2005-06-09 17:06
Oh well, at least DS has his Donkey to talk to and it don't cost $150 an hour. He is busy trying to make a "C" extension for his broomstick.
Bob A
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-06-09 17:14
That´s even more strange, how the establishment reterritorializes Zappa once he´s dead, in Germany it´s more often done with literature avantgarde, put them back on a exhibition board, boy how are we tolerant to accept such a...thing...amongst the great heritage of art! I always liked to listen to Zappa´s raw edge he gave to woodwinds in general, although myself rooted in the opposite corner (soft screeching).
As far as anxiety goes in front of people who think they know the stuff, I always have the knife out already before even unclaping the zip of my cl-bag - it doesn´t wear off with age, on the contrary.
What´s this community band ensemble about? "Patriotic stuff" was mentioned to be played there - what kind of band/orchestra/ensemble is such a thing? I reckon it´s fairly frequent then in the US?
Markus
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-09 18:11
Markus,
Here is a link to community bands in my state of Ohio. Look at the bottom and you'll see several other links to bands in neighboring states. Follow some and you'll get the flavor of these groups.
http://www.meridiancommunityband.org/mcb_links_bands_ohio.html
I have always played in a community or college/university band wherever I have lived and have been doing this for at least 50 years. Some groups are outstanding and none have been any less than above average. Great fun and lots of performance opportunities. I've sat in the clarinet, sax (alto and tenor), bassoon, or low clarinet sections. A couple of times, I have even been a brass player (what was I thinking of!).
HRL
BTW, there are some truly great players in these bands. In one I play with currently, the principal clarinet's tone, grace, style, and technique make me almost sob it is so beautiful. She studied with Sidney Forrest.
Post Edited (2005-06-10 01:29)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-06-09 18:19
Don wrote:
"How do I stop worrying about being the one who blew (as in "screwed up") a particular passage in concert or fumbled through sight-reading it in rehearsal?"
My point exactly. Already, you're working off a laundry list for technical accuracy, with an enjoyable performance not even entering the equation. Musicality, it seems, can be added later? It's no wonder we're neurotic if our top concern is whether or not we blow or fumble a passage. In the past year I've really started to let go of my note-accuracy concerns and enjoy playing the music. In the process, my technicality has improved greatly.
If you ask me, clarinetists need to do some significant improv these days.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-09 18:23
Bob A,
Nice to hear from you. BTW, the Donkey has raised his rates (again) and now he does cost me more than $150 for therapeutic consultation -- since I can't afford him any longer, I'm posting here on the BB instead. Also, the low-C broomstick (actually 'kitchen plumbing') extension has been complete for some months and is fully operational. Unfortunately it hasn't netted me a single cent of additional income, so it's still on probation.
Back to the topic, if there ever was one.........
Markus,
In the USA we have many community (volunteer) concert bands (think of them as a military brass band, but with a full complement of woodwinds and percussion) which play various combinations of orchestral transcriptions, military-style marches, 'patriotic' music for American holidays such as Independence Day, and original concert band literature (which alone can cover the entire musical gamut). Such community bands often meet once a week and perform (usually) free concerts for the general public, and can comprise musicians of skill levels ranging from those who practice fifteen minutes a week if forced, to bona fide full-time professional players, with every level in between also represented depending on the particular group. Since there are far fewer amateur opportunities to play with symphony orchestras in this country, the vast majority of us adult (including advanced student) wind players get our jollies instead by playing in community bands.
What is the situation in Germany?
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-06-09 18:51
David,
I haven´t much of an idea of such bands,here in Germany,-there are brass- and marchingbands, most of which are condemned to a sort of perverted and completely soiled volksmusik,which has absolutely nothing to do with the forms and ways to play central European folkmusic. I´d love to play in a group of the 'real mccoy' for once,but never had a chance so far. / Such an institution like a community band doesn´t exist (another reason to envy the artistic opportunities in the US-...) I think, there are some so called "laienorchester", but those are few, repeating the 1750-1890 lipoid heap (nearly) everyone else plays, being paid to do so or not. It seems like a great idea to "involve everyone" in this community band- when does one start to play there, during school, or later? How large are those bands?
Markus
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-09 19:02
David , nice description of the community bands here in the U.S. but we actually do have an orchestra here in LS. We are VERY fortunate in our community to have an unusual number of excellent musicians that needed an outlet for their talent so one of the retired orchestra directors from the local school district started up our community orchestra. We are a full orchestra and perform 4 concerts a year. We just finished our second season as a group and I think we're doing pretty good.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-09 19:37
rc_clarinetlady: Here in the DC metro area we also have quite a few community orchestras --- but since orchestras generally use no more than three clarinetists on the average, while concerts bands probably average three to four times that number, there are overall more opportunities for US clarinetists to play in concert bands than there are in orchestras. Besides, a large percentage of the orchestra literature doesn't even use clarinets, or some pieces use them sporadically --- but in concert band literature the clarinets are playing every piece, all the time. More notes per hour!
Markus: Concert bands in the US generally have as few as twenty players, to as many as one hundred, but probably average in the 30-40 range. I'm distressed that you have nothing similar in Deutschland --- we shall have to invite you over here to sit in with some bands!
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Author: KikBrassClarinet
Date: 2005-06-09 19:56
I'm new to the little web community here, and I just spent about an hour reading a bunch of comments from everyone, and I would just like to say thank you. It's incredible how almost all of the issues I have playing come up on here, this topic in specific. I've been told practically since I entered middle school that I'm too critical and don't have enough fun, that I spend too much time focusing on the negatives, etc., and it was great to read everyone's comments and philosophies on the matter. This is really a wonderful little tool for clarinetists, and I shall be visiting back frequently.
In short responce to one of the girls who is the youngest member of a community orchestra.... I know the feeling. Most of the musicians in my (band actually, not orchestra) are all over at least 30, most in the 50ish area, and many have made their living off of music at one point in their lives. However, they're one of the most relaxed people I have to play with. You get a lot out of playing with people who know what they're doing. Enjoy the experience and don't worry about being the youngest. You can play, obviously, that's why you're there. I guarentee that you'll be better than some of the adults in there.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-06-10 01:32
Markus,
I enjoy your posts. I also enjoy reading Thomas Bernhard - just finished "Heldenplatz"and "Watten." He has a very special style, similar in fact to your posts, although yours read more like a bad english translation of Bernhard. As you know, Bernhard studied at the Vienna Akademie, and his narrator usually rants disdainfully about the Austrian music and cultural establishment (classical and otherwise). Do you think Bernhard was himself devestated by Glenn Gould's performance of the Goldberg Variations?
As for this concept of the community orchestra or band, do you think that a CDU/CSU government will significantly cut regional orchestra subsidies, thereby spawning the growth of amateur orchestras in Germany?
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Author: ClarinetConnoisseur
Date: 2005-06-10 02:26
I think that clarinet players (in general, no offense to anyone!) are very neurotic/eccentric. I know a lot of clarinetists (including myself) that have multiple clarinets (i have 11), and a lot of them save every one of their reeds. I think it's amusing how much we strive for perfection, but I also think that clarinetists are one of the most hard-working sections, because there is definitely more competition between us than smaller sections, such as french horns. Clarinets have one of the biggest sections in the orchestral world, so we have to compete against the most people, and this could be why we criticize ourselves so much- to make it to the top. Just a thought....
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-10 02:31
11 clarinets and being so young? I call that neurotic! lol! Maybe I'm jealous.......? Yeah we do have a lot of competition, but maybe that's a good thing so we all become better players in the process.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-10 02:33
Music is many things; music does many things. It can comfort; it can disturb. It can take you back to a place where you have been; it can lead you to a place you didn’t even know about. Music can be complex or simple.
The posts from Marcus have taken this whole thread to a different level—reminding us all of the total range of possibilities of music. I like that. Perhaps clarinetists as a group are too uptight because of being entrapped by one tradition, with its characteristic prejudices and snobbery.
What I don’t like is the idea that one has to play on the edge constantly. That is just trading one one-sided view for another. I don’t want to be on the edge all the time. It’s tiresome. Not every attempt at being avant garde, or different, or unusual, comes off. There is nothing new under the sun. Sometimes there is a place for revisiting the classics and just playing it straight. The classics have survived because they have stood the test of time.
Sometimes the search for originality and playing “outside the box” can become a neurosis in itself. I’m wary of that phrase, “outside the box.” The phrase itself is conventional. The people who truly think and act and play music outside the box do so out of the depths of their own individuality, not out of some contrived and self-conscious effort to be different.
On a personal level, I find the discussion about Zappa to be fascinating, because my son has re-introduced me to Zappa. Back in the day I had some Zappa on vinyl. All my vinyl has gone, and I’m not sure where it all went. Anyway, I used to recite little snippets of Zappa to my son, and he thought I had made it all up. Now he is more into Zappa than I ever was.
Interpreting Zappa is somewhat like trying to interpret Dylan. Sometimes it is hard to figure whether he is being profound or stupid, and nobody wants to ask because that automatically make you un-cool. I heard somewhere that John Lennon wrote the lyrics to “I Am the Walrus” because he got tired of Dylan being able to write whatever he wanted and everyone thinking it all meant something. If that is not a true story, it ought to be.
There is no question that Zappa did some good quality and creative things with music, combining instruments and genres in ways that truly had never been done before. But I agree with David, that some of his stuff was plain crap. After you have repeated “Help, I’m a rock!” seven or eight times, we get the message. Do something else, and make it musical. Speaking it terms of pure music, there is no way you can compare that with, say, Louis Armstrong’s solo on West End Blues.
Ideally, I think every musician ought to try to find his/her own voice. But that’s a lifelong quest. Some days I we have it; some days we don’t. Sometimes it is enough just to get lost in the music.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-06-10 04:31
Holy Saint Seans,
I'm in a community orchestra, and we're playing the Bacchanale on Sunday. I drew the job of playing the first 46 note Recitativo for the obeoist --who demurred.
I've played those 46 little notes about 400 times. Tuesday, the conductor placed limits on my ad-libitum; and today I squeaked while playing it in strict time.
I'm a whole lot spoooked about Sunday's performance in the community theater with a few hundered local music lovers in attendance!
And how about the orchestral politics, the doubters, the "I told you so-s in the wings?
ARRRGGGGHHHH
I wonder if the squeak gods will just shut up and listen for once.
Thankfully, I finished my therapy last year.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-06-10 05:50
I believe that caring less about more and more about less is a great way of approching many things including preformance. I have never had trepedation or neurotic tendencies about playing my clarinet in front of anyone so I can't really identify all the way, but it seems that clarinetist worry about the littlest things that in the long run don't matter very much and end up ignoring the things that make the biggest difference. It is almost like painting a great painting on a really crappy canvas.
By the way, Zappa being vulgar, having juvenile rebellion, bad temper and testiness is what gave him courage, dedication and creativness. The lack of those things is what makes a Rock and Roller boring, contrived and a puppet of record producers. As a matter of fact it may be that these neurotic clarinetists need a little vulgar, juvenile rebellion mixed in with bad temper and a touch of testiness. Maybe that would help with the self confidence?
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-10 08:48
Dano wrote,
"........these neurotic clarinetists need a little vulgar, juvenile rebellion mixed in with bad temper and a touch of testiness."
You just described a lot of clarinetists I know. Honestly, I think they are such prima donnas (and whatever the male equivalent is). How do you suggest that having these qualities about them is going to help them be less anxiety ridden?
When playing in situations where you feel intimidated by the superior abilities of your collegues, then a certain amount of poise and self-control is going to go a long way in showing some self confidence and self esteem. I think you should try not to show your nerves when you are in these kinds of situations and just play your best even if you're terrified. Chances are, if you play your part well, all will be fine and you won't have to stress over disclosing your playing history or music education level. The clarinets in our section are all pretty laid back and we very much enjoy what we do. We also don't posess those bratty qualities mentioned above.
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2005-06-10 09:58
Great post, enjoyed a lot!
Also I learned about this American institution of Community Bands: the link was interesting and I bookmarked the website of one of the Ohio bands.
In Korea where (I think) amateur music groups are on the embryonic stage because apart from big cities it's really hard to even find any, I share Markus' envy about US.
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-06-10 13:55
Oh my - my English has been named some things - but "a bad translation of Th.Berhard" was never amongst them, so far, that is. Is it a bad thing or a good one, I wonder? And I´ve got no lung-disease of any kind, definitely.
/As mentioned, there´s no such thing as a community band or orchestra in Germany, not in that sense. It´d do the general cultural level a lot of good, doubtlessly - I´m all the more impressed by this obviously American habit of "you have an idea, a plan, so let´s set things up and realise this,pronto", this engagement for the ones around yourself. Here in ole´ Germany one is immediatedly asked what degree authorises such a conduct, you have to run from Pontius to Pilatus to get all the stamps and paers and money together and in the end not a single soul but the most cultural starved shows up, whereas the concerthall is humming with people who think music ends with a Salzburgian rondo. The orchestras, ensembles and bands struggle always nowadays, the to be expected change in gouverment will not alter things in this respect; even the theoretically effective idea of installing a cultural ambassador, by the parliament, just fed the big cows only - and it wasn´t a disadvantage for cultural life in Germany that this post was cut short after one legislation period.
"If you ask me, clarinetists need to do some significant improv these days." - Yes Alex, indeed, by all means, that´d do them some good, beyond any of their imagination. How often am I approached by people telling me they had never thought sounds like that possible to come out of a clarinet or saxophone...The deepest impact an old lady made on me saying, after we played a composition of mine for a memorial service on the Shoa-Day in church, that she heard all her rage and suffering in it and at the same time the spirituality and power to survive all this, and I never had any idea that all this could have possibly been in there in those metal and wooden tubes-with-holes-drilled-in.
Markael - I ´d so love to show You what edge I mean, oh yes it´s tiresome, and dangerous, and chilly out there "outside the box", but after a while everthing else "in there" is flat out boring and stuck. "On the edge" has a very concrete, very pragmatic meaning, it´s not ideology or a formal chant but a way of performing, reading, rehearsing, learning music. The sudden positive tension that is in the room when someone of our ensemble says "hm,...nice...well...can´t we do something to it?!" is uncomparable to anything else, especially phrases "yes,all again from bar 39 on" and the like.
Hank - thank You very much for the community band link - that´d be a most wonderful idea, to sit in there for a week (ahem, perhaps not the one that, according to their website, played at a "Germantown Pretzel Festival", please?!), I really would like to experience that institution working. Up to 100 people...incredible...playing Sousa, and patriotic marches, oh my...Probably they´d blast us all away in one swoop, with our itchy nibble sort of music, all in therapy really, more fascinated by trying to perform the smudges on the paper than by the key it´s in...
Markus
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-10 14:43
Marcus, I think I understand what you are saying.
Innovation, originality, freshness, and generally staying awake while the horn is in your mouth—all these things are good.
I guess my way of looking at this is partly a matter of philosophy and partly temperament.
Life is a continuous ebb and flow of going out and coming back, of taking things apart and putting them back together. When you have been away from home exploring new territory, sometimes it is good to return to the familiar. It’s not just that it is comforting; you also begin to understand home in a different light, just by virtue of having been away.
I am also annoyed by musicians who say they never want to experience a plateau. Plateaus are a natural part of any growth process.
Your explanation of music in Germany is helpful, because it shows the ways that your culture stifles creativity. Most of the energy from your posts seems to come from your frustration with this situation.
American culture has different ways of stifling creativity. I have recently started watching Italian movies, actually as a way of learning the language. I have never been an avid movie watcher, but I have discovered how bad American cinema is, and how good it could be.
I just think that creativity is something that should happen naturally. Don’t stifle it, but don’t force it either. The best creative moments aren’t planned; they just happen. And they don’t have to happen every single day.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-06-10 15:13
rcclarinet lady, How does vulgar, juvenile rebellion and testiness describe prima donnas or the male equivalent?? Testiness maybe, but I thought prima donnas scowled at rebellion and vulgarity. Maybe my attempt at being sarcastic was lost and I should have put it in a more straight forward manner. My point: Quit being so anal retentive? Let loose with the playing style? Know your instrument and play it like you own it and the music? Put musical directors in their place (so to speak). I don't know much about "the superior abilities of collegues" while preforming since I am usually the only clarinetist in the bunch. Have not played in a concert band or orchestra in about 20 years but I think I can speak from the musician that watches and listens to concert bands and orchestras and knows quite a few clarinetists that participate in them and sees the dynamics going on in the clarinet sections. I don't believe I could ever go back to playing in a clarinet section. I think I am spoiled. I don't think that you would be the first one ever to say you and your section do not posses the above mentioned bratty qualities. (smiley face aside) Those are not "qualities" we like to admit we have.
That smiley face with the tongue wagging makes my backbone tingle. Thank you!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-10 15:19
Hi,
With us spending a little time on the community band discussion, the link below is absolutely the mother lode for the entire band community world-wide.
http://www.harrogate.co.uk/harrogate-band/link04.htm#us
Markus, you can compare the bands in your country with others quite easily here. BTW why not the Germantown Pretzel Festival?
HRL
Post Edited (2005-06-11 02:36)
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-10 15:38
Well, maybe the tingle felt good!!!!
You probably should be the only clarinetist in the bunch as I suspect you do posess the qualities you listed in your previous post. We get along just great in our section of 5 and have a wonderful time on Monday nights. That may be an undesirable thing in your book but I am a more social person and love to laugh. By the way, I am the mother of three teenage boys. I've spent years trying to keep them from having the qualities you mention.
I think your attempt at being sarcastic was lost on me. I can follow your writing for only so long and then it gets really twisted and I can't tell if you're being straight forward or sarcastic. No voice inflection in writings.
I agree with you that we need to enjoy our instruments and own the music. If I'm stuck on a particular difficult place in the music, I have to remind myself that I am in control of the music and the instrument and just make it happen. It always comes through and sounds so much better in the end. People who play with a lot of anxiety should try that thought process and a more relaxed sound will come out of their instrument.
Rebecca
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-06-10 19:21
Markus--
One of the groups I play with may make a trip to Austria and Germany next summer in celebration of Mozart's 250th birthday. Keep an eye on this board and I'll probably say something when we do make the trip; then perhaps you can come listen to an American community band. Actually, this group calls itself a wind ensemble, but has much the same personel as a community band, plays much the same literature and, as with most community bands, no one is paid. Unlike most community bands, however, all our performances are formal concerts with no summer concerts in the park. And many of the musicians are music educators or professionals. And I promise, no perverted volksmusic.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-10 23:27
Where do I find one of these broomsticks? Does it only come in Bb? Does it play better in tune than other broomsticks and mops? Why am I the only one without one?! And where can I find a donkey?
I feel a little out of the loop.
--CG
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-11 00:30
contragirl, don't feel left out. I don't actually play a broomstick, it's just that my bass clarinet has been so hacked up and modified that it pretty much SOUNDS like a broomstick at this point. But it's still in the key of Bb, as best I can tell. Intonation? I don't worry about that, whatever it is.....
And we really do have a Donkey, a rather small fellow named Romeo who keeps our seven horses company (and doesn't care for my playing either --- he's quite the critic). If you'd like a donkey of your own, there is a Donkey Rescue organization (comparable to Equine Rescue for horses) that is always trying to place these fine friends with good people.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-06-11 01:44
rc clarinetlady, You are right, it is difficult to judge sarcasm when there is a lack of voice but...... Talk about testy! It is wonderful when my point is proven without me having to further comment on the subject. Thank you for the compliment.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-06-11 08:59
Oh Dano......you really DON'T know me. I wrote that entire last post with a huge smile on my face and was thinking about how fun it is that we get to do this kind of thing. Again, no voice inflection in writing. I suppose this is why people use the little phrases like "lol" and the smiley faces that you seem to dislike so very much. It, at least, conveys some sort of emotion in the writing.
I wasn't being testy with you at all. I really do have three teeange boys (19, 17 and 14) and don't want them to have the qualities you mentioned. If you take them one by one they go like this: (Vulgar. They would be in detention all the time if that were allowed. ( Juvenile rebellion. Let's see. Are you talking about the terrible two's or something completely different? Juvenile rebellion is something everyone goes through. Not only that, it's necessary in a young person's emotional growth. We all seperate from our parents. Desirable as intentional, though? Hhmm..? (Bad temper. In America there is so much domestic violence and violence in general as it is. I'm teaching my boys some self control and respect. (And finally, testiness. Do you like testy people? Obviously not. You thought I was being testy with you and seemed put off by it.
I'm wondering then, as I asked you before, why you believe these are qualities that would help someone have more self confidence. To me they seem like a social death sentence. I would probably avoid someone who was like this. Note, I did not say that I would confront and blast them verbally. Not my style. I would avoid them. I'm just wondering (really) how you think this would help with an anxiety issue? Maybe I'm focusing on one sentence in your post too much but it really caught my attention and I'm very curious as to why you wrote it.
Rebecca
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-06-12 18:15
Don Poulsen - my confessor will be delighted that I´ve been invited to a concert honouring Mozart...of all composers, me attending a Mozart conc...Really, I´m grateful, honestly, and if there´s a chance for me to listen to a community band I hope not to miss it.
Hank - that´s quite a list Your link led to, incredible! Such an instituition is completely missing in Germany, I´m quite sure in Europe alltogether. Apart from, ahem, startling uniform-pants, this common engagement in regards of the arts I find very impressing. Just to imagine what plateaus an unleashed, detonalized communityband could reach/open up - immense. Does anybody how old this instituition is, how far those bands reach back, and how they came to pass? An inheritance from military bands, fusing with. e.g.,local parish music groups?
/Apropos "military music": I have a Cd titeled "The Cicil War", the Eastman Wind Ensemble and military musicians recorded there music form that aera, live on horseback, with cannons blazing, shouts, cries etc. (It´s from the famous "Mercury Living Presence" series). This recording is one more element that amazes me what is possible there in the US...
Markus
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-12 18:32
Markus,
An excellent source for background on the whole wind band (not marching bands though) movement in the US is "The Winds of Change" by Battisti. You can order it from Amazon.com or perhaps others can find it in their local college library if the institution has a significant music program. Everything is there from Gabrelli to Sousa to the Eastman Wind Ensemble and on including conductors, literature, recordings, and band compositions. The philosophical underpinning is very interesting.
An outstanding read for anyone serious about knowing more about the genre.
HRL
PS Fennell's book about Fennell is also terrific but Out of Print, however.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-06-13 17:56
On the subject harmonious relations in amateur clarinet sections, I am involved in several where things are quite good.
Interestingly, it is far better now than it used to be, and one of the reasons is an influx of professional players into amateur groups as work dries up.
Here are what I see as basic problems:
1 - Imbalances in the pecking order are a big cause of these section problems that I see mentioned. This is particularly true in instances where the first chair (or the first section) is not adequately doing its job. If this is the case, even lesser players will feel like they can do the job better if given a chance. ("Sure, he has fingers--but *I* would be more *musical*)
2 - Another big cause of trouble for clarinetists in a group is the lack of other outlets for their playing. If you see yourself as a strong player but community band is your only outlet, you are naturally going to want the best chair position, most solos, etc. that you can get. Having other (and more advanced?) playing outlets can leave you with less to prove and a greater appreciation for those in supporting roles.
3 - To culminate and blend items 1 & 2, I think that players who know just enough to be dangerous are less likely to respect their equals, their inferiors or even their superiors. It's like cancer. I can remember playing in one community band concert in which one of the third clarinetists began shouting at a couple of seconds who began playing a 'second-time-only' figure on the first time of a section. The man, who was an adequate player (and medical doctor!) had lost all sense of which was the greater disturbance--their entrance or his shouting.
I play in a number of community and amateur settings in which most or all of the clarinetists play professionally (make money playing in some way or another) or at least have other outlets. In these situations, players get along well, section leaders are friendly and generous, and apt players who are strictly amateur are treated with more respect.
Allen Cole
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