 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-11-14 17:09
Sorry but this posting will be a bit lengthy. First, last week I took delivery of a brand new “C” stock Amati 692S bass clarinet from Music123. I saved 17% over the normal selling price and expected something that had been played and had some scratches and maybe a small dent or two. I based that assumption on Music123's C stock definition which follows:
New C Stock......"Shows signs of heavy use with scratches, dents and finish wear. May have been damaged and repaired, some factory accessories may not be included. Think of it as a "used" item that is still protected by a FULL MANUFACTURER WARRANTY*. This item is GUARANTEED TO PLAY, and includes Music123's 45 day 100% satisfaction guarantee. Our loss is your opportunity to SAVE MONEY!"
Now what I got was an instrument whose plateau keys were so far out of adjustment that it was unplayable. I fixed that problem with a bit of cork and carefully reseating two pads on the right hand. That’s OK, I like tinkering with horns and after managing to get an old Conn bass back in playing condition do understand the mechanics. The horn also had a little dent in the neck and scratches, all this I find acceptable.
However, upon close examination of the horn I find it has a pinned crack in the lower joint. The crack ran/runs from the middle tenon down to the B/F# vent and there are at least two pins installed. Further, I can feel the crack in the bore. It did not reach to surface except under the metal tenon ring.
Am I out of line to feel that Music123 misrepresented this instrument? Most sellers even on eBay tell you if an instrument has pinned cracks and had I known would not have purchased it. Should I be happy with my cracked 17% discount or return the instrument? I do not feel that 17% is adequate compensation for a crack. Any thoughts on this situation would be appreciated.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-14 17:14
...
> May have been damaged and repaired,
...
> Am I out of line to feel that Music123
> misrepresented this instrument?
Yes. It's pretty explicit - your instrument was damaged & repaired, just like they said. If it was an unprofessional repair you might have a case.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2004-11-14 17:50
Most reputable music stores will work with you to make this right. Have you talked to them yet?
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-14 18:15
Your first mistake was ordering it without really knowing what you order. Both Music123 and WW&BW (they share the same stock) say they can't really describe every intrument individually on their website. I think they didn't misrepresent the intrument, but I would still return it if I was you.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-11-14 18:45
17% doesn't seem like enough of a discount for a cracked instrument to me. They may have you on a technicality with the description of "damaged and repaired" but they should have disclosed the crack. It sounds like they were being evasive but have covered their behinds by that statement.
Is it past your 45 day time to return the instrument? If not then maybe you should consider returning it. I would be quite upset with a cracked horn.
Good luck with everything,
Rebecca
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-14 18:51
rc_clarinetlady wrote:
> 17% doesn't seem like enough of a discount for a cracked
> instrument to me.
I'd agree there. I'd expect a 17% discount on "A" and some "B" level merchandise.
> They may have you on a technicality with the
> description of "damaged and repaired" but they should have
> disclosed the crack. It sounds like they were being evasive
> but have covered their behinds by that statement.
That's not a "technicality" by any means. I think they are being very upfront with their description of "C" class merchandise - badly worn, broken but repaired, etc. . That's not evasive in the least! It's upfront and honest IMNSHO.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-14 19:20
However DEFINITELY don't disclose that you tinkered with the plateau keys. Cause that's a no-no.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-11-14 19:40
I suppose I think a cracked horn is not really in the same category as damaged and repaired. When I read those words I think of bent or broken keys, damaged pads and springs replaced and other mechanical issues. Something someone did to damage it and it's since been repaired.
Those types of repairs would be expected, for me, on a C rated instrument.
A crack is a structural problem/defect to me and I wouldn't buy one. I suppose we should all learn from this and ASK directly if there are any cracks, existing or repaired. If the seller claims no cracks and there are cracks then that would be a serious misrepresentation. If it's something you can live with then at least you have all the information and can make an informed decision.
With all due respect, Mark, (and I do respect your opinions on this board) I still think it was evasive NOT to mention the crack. When someone sells a house there is a disclosure statment. If there were a crack in the foundation....even if it had been repaired.....it should still be disclosed to the buyer. It's a structural problem and not to be taken lightly. I could NEVER sell a horn and not disclose a crack. To me it's just dishonest. Personal opinion I suppose.
Rebecca
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2004-11-14 20:19
<<However DEFINITELY don't disclose that you tinkered with the plateau keys. Cause that's a no-no.>>
That would be highly dishonest. I could definitely see asking for a refund after inspection of the instrument, but once you start doing serious work on it (especially as an amateur technician), it's yours.
You could talk to them, tell them what you've done so far, and then ask if they'd consider a refund. Maybe they'll be nice.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-11-14 21:13
Lots of opinions.
First the instrument is on a 45 day conditional trial and I can return it. I feel the cracks, there are actually two of them and only one has been pinned should have been disclosed by the seller. I would have never bought the horn had a know about the cracks, I would have purchased a brand new one. IMHO the lower section should be replaced.
When I received the instrument it was unplayable, it leaked like a sive. I called them about the leaks and told them I was going to adjust it or have it adjusted. What's a person supposed to do when they live in the boon docks far from civilization. I suppose I should have just put it back in the box and returned it, but I fixed it. That's how I noticed the pinned crack.
Anyway, it plays just fine, nice tone and except for the left hand pinky finger Eb key works just great under my short fat fingers. Chalumeau D# using the side vent is bit out of tune.
I think it's going back, I'd rather pay the extra money and not have to look at or think about cracks. I'll buy a new one next time. At least the next person who trys it will get a horn that plays
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-14 21:24
The damage described seems in line with their C classification, and there is the option to return it within 45 days so far as we know. I don't really think anyone is being treated dishonestly here.
Horn sucks...send back for refund. That's what the guarantee is all about.
I have complaints of my own about the Woodwind, but they mostly stem from minor clerical errors and failure of staff to know certain details. I have yet to see reason to consider them dishonest or uncaring about their customers.
Perhaps they should've revealed a repaired crack, but the C classification seems an effort to do this in volume. When I hear a phrase like 'damaged and repaired' I don't think of keys adjusted or pads replaced. To me, it would seem to be a codeword for cracked.
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-14 21:32
As for those stating that it should have been disclosed in the description, WWBW is a very large store, and sells lots of used equipment which goes and comes all the time. THat's the reason they came up with the "A, B, C" system of rating. Simply so that they can save some time and manpower and simply place an instrument in one of THREE categories instead of expending the time and manpower to evaluate each one thoroughly, finding all the dings and dents, and describing it as so.
I'm not saying it's the BEST thing to do, but from a business standpoint, certainly a very economical and cost-effective method.
Not an excuse for them, but I felt I should put it out there and hopefully you can at least understand a little more where they're probably coming from.
All in all, count it as a lesson learned and we ALL know now to ask about the condition before purchasing. Especially if it's lumped under a generic and non-specific rating system.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-11-14 21:41
If someone honors a "satisfaction guarantee" it's hard to accuse them of being dishonest. If the 17% discount is off list price it seems a bit high for a "C" stock instrument, but if it's off an already discounted price it's probably in line.
If you don't like it send it back. (I wish I could have done that with my 1967 Ford Mustang.)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-14 21:48
Just send the instrument back. A "C" classification basically means that the instrument may be total crap and that's what you got.
Send it back, get a refund and move along. It wasn't decptive of them to not note the crack specifically as it was a "C" type horn.
If it were B than absolutely it would have been a problem, but not a C.
17% off was low for what you got, but it was what it was. Don't worry about having adjusted the keys as you improved what was not working correctly. If you had damaged it further than that would be an issue, but unless they ask you why the instrument suddenly plays better, I wouldn't bring it up. You didn't customise it, you worked to try to bring it back up to "factory settings".
:)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-11-14 23:05
If you fail to disclose that you tinkered with the instrument, then you're just as bad as they are. Even though the instrument works now.
I think that perhaps by now it is YOUR instrument. Why not get the crack repaired properly and give it an overhaul from someone who REALLY knows what they're doing? You might not have gotten it at 17% off after this, but at least you've learned a lesson and have a bass clarinet that is really characteristically *yours*!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-15 00:27
Aligning some pads and keys is not redesigning the instrument nor customizing it.
Redrilling the thumbrest holes, undercutting toneholes, crack repairing would come under non-returnable work done, but I think at best telling them would just be confusing the issue.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-15 03:32
I completely 100% agree with David. The people who works there don't know that much about intruments so telling them you replaced a pad or two might give them the wrong ideas you ruined it or something. What you fixed is minor and only brought back the horn to playable condition.
I will say again, return the instrument imediately! It doesn't feel good to buy an instrument you don't like. You will regret it if you don't return it, at least that is what I think.
About the C stock description, I sold WW&BW a clarinet that had a crack that was fixed and was not in the best condition but it played beautifully. They put it under their C stock too. It was pretty obvious it can be any type of damage and repair, and like I said before, they don't describe each instrument indivually. Maybe you could notice that there is not even one instrument on their entire website that is described individually. I think they were completely honest.
Bottom line is, never buy an instrument without trying it first! I flew 11 hours, then drove 13 hours (in the rain), drove back 12 hours (no rain so it was shorter) and flew back 10 hours, to find my instrument. Not everyone is willing to do that, but in the USA you don't have that problem since you have stores with clarinets there.
Good luck.
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Author: Stepan
Date: 2004-11-15 05:53
Hello, I do not understand this problem!
When you do not like the crack or you think that instrument with crack was too expensive: return it!
Or if you can live with it and you like the sound do not return it.
I would return it... You never know if you do not have some "unfortunate piece of wood" which can develop even more cracks...
Post Edited (2004-11-15 05:55)
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