 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-08-31 22:58
Or any other Boehm systems with extras like LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism and articulated C#/G# mechanism? Or even the LH Ab/Eb lever which some people think is the work of the devil himself.
They're just regular Boehm systems with added extras which offer more options which you can either use to their and your advantage, or ignore what they do which is a total waste of time and effort on the part of the maker for having fitted them.
If you've never had a clarinet with these extra features, then you're in no position to slag them off if you've never had the opportunity to discover what uses they have.
LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism (the extra ring for LH3) offers an in tune forked Eb and Bb fingering (xox|ooo).
Articulated C#/G# allows easy B-C# and F#-G# trills, tremolos with any RH note to C#/Db as well as C-Db, G-Ab and altissimo E-F trills with the extra touchpiece for RH2 instead of trilling with your LH pinky. Yes you can't use the full fingerings for altissimo F and Bb, but they can still be played with either the short fingerings or for altissimo Bb, you just take your thumb off the thumb tube instead of opening the C#/G# key (which is otherwise kept closed by the RH ring keys).
And on full Boehms, doing a slur from low Eb to Ab is made possible with the LH Ab/Eb lever, although that's now the only extra piece of keywork fitted to clarinets nowadays which duplicates all the RH touches for the LH pinky to avoid sliding in certain passages.
If you ever get the opportunity to use a full Boehm, don't reject it and at least try the extras it has - it still has the 'normal' fingerings plus some added extras.
There.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-08-31 23:51
It's several reasons:
o The added weight to whatever mechanism (fingering involved)
o (related to above) the added complication of all parts moving smoothly
o AND all all pads sealing together (like the 1 and 1 Bb fingering)
o IF those things were so great all clarinets would have been made that way
o (related to above) The lack of a number of different ones to choose from either multiples of the same horn from the same manufacturer or just a bunch of different manufacturers (such as "I really prefer the Yamaha CSG full Boehm but the Uebel Summit full Boehm is kinda nice too.")
AND......the left hand extra Ab/Eb lever IS made by the Devil
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2024-09-01 00:34
I have a pair of old Cabart half-boehm clarinets and I do enjoy playing them for various reasons including the fingering options you mention Chris (though they aren't my main clarinets). There are some drawbacks though (for me):
- As Paul alludes to, there is more to go wrong / more adjustment that has to be just-so. For someone mechanically-savvy or within easy reach of a competent tech that's not so much of a problem (or if indeed one *is* a competent tech Chris!)
- Related to this, I find that the articulated C# / G# key can stick (especially with certain pad types) which is annoying. This is definitely a fixable problem with good pads / a clean tonehole / good care and maintenance.
- Overhauls are often more expensive (more pads / more mechanism)
- I find that the third ring in the left hand sometimes makes it harder to cover the tone hole with my (probably short) ring finger. I suspect that this would be a lot easier if the tone hole were slightly offset
- I do miss the long fingering for top F
Mostly I'm put off by the fact that my other clarinets don't have these features which means I have to remind myself which fingerings are available (again, I don't think you have this problem Chris - I seem to remember you saying you had a complete set of Eb, C, Bb and A on a different thread).
I suspect the reason that enhanced boehm isn't more common is economic rather than anything else - more expensive to make and hard to convince people to shell out enough more money for.
What I would certainly like to see more in mainstream clarinets is a "proper" throat Bb that doesn't mis-use the speaker key.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-01 00:55
Selmer began to offset the LH3 tonehole chimney on their full Boehms in the '70s (late Series 9/9* onwards) and both Buffet and Leblanc full Boehms also have the offset LH3 chimney.
Sticking C#/G# pads can be dealt with by both using a cork pad and balancing the spring tensions better - essentially beefing up the spring tension of the pad cup spring and using low friction materials in the linkage so nothing hangs up.
Long Bb (xoo|xoo) is just as likely to go out of adjustment on any clarinet than it is with a full Boehm and any clarinet equipped with a forked Eb/Bb mechanism the adjusting screw connecting the LH2 ring to the LH3 ring/E/B vent will take care of that if that's the only issue - using less compressible and low friction silencing materials (as opposed to natural cork as I see used a lot) or a nylon tipped adjusting screw keeps things in adjustment.
The long Bb usually gets put out of adjustment on clarinets with articulated C#/G# mechanism down to poor handling and mashing up the linkage during assembly if you crash the linkage into the pillars on the lower joint socket ring, so correct handling is critical and take your time when assembling them.
As for weight, you can always use a telescopic support like a Quodlibet FHRED (no longer made) RDG BHOB (very similar to the FHRED) or an ErgoBrass support - the latter can be used both seated or you can get a taller section for use when standing. All of them can be used with a belt buckle attachment for use while standing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2024-09-01 00:58)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-09-01 03:07
While I once had the opportunity to try a clarinet with the articulated C#/G#, I never had the chance to play a full Boehm. In my youth I recall Selmer offering a number of mechanisms and key configurations, but these seemed to disappear after a few years. I don't recall any players I knew using any of those from Selmer, Buffet or others. I am not against the idea of trying one, but I rarely see these instruments these days.
Honestly, I think much of the clarinet community seems very reluctant to experiment with anything out of the norm. Now, of course, it Riccardo Morales or Martin Frost played a full Boehm, everyone would be in a frenzy trying to switch over! LOL :-)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-09-01 05:33
I installed one of these on my R13.
https://www.clarinetworks.com/product/bolt-on-alternate-e-flat-key/
It was not particularly hard for me to do, and I'm glad I did.
It took about a week of practice to get my brain to tell my left pink where this new key was and not to hit it.
In certain passages, where mid-note pinky swaps are needed to set up the pinkies to make the notes playable proves quite challenging, I find the key indispensable and I'm glad I installed it.
For those familiar with the beginning of the cadenza on Messenger's Solo De Concurs for example, if you want to play it with accelerating speed this key makes things far more manageable, IMHO.
I am not yet at a point where my brain will know to go this new key while site reading, like I might when take a ![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif) with the left pinky if followed by an ![[Eb5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/eb5.gif) but I imagine this will come with time.
I will still at times do mid not pinky swaps out of force of habit when this new key could prevent the need for them.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-09-01 09:40
I think in general clarinetists are a very difficult bunch, and are resistant to any changes positive or not. (Hence why the Stubbins throat Bb didn’t catch on…?)
In my opinion, the LH 3rd ring forked Eb/Bb is nice to have especially for some trills. I have 2 clarinets with it, and on 1 of them it’s so out of tune it’s not usable however, so I ended up just not using it most of the time.
I’ve tried a clarinet with the articulated C#/G# before and think it’s very useful. I often encounter trills that would be made MUCH easier with it. However I do also use the long altissimo F regularly and would be frustrated to give it up. Also they often have the extra sliver key for trilling, which is beneficial for my because my LH pinky is not a very quick finger.
My current main clarinet has the LH Eb/Ab, and it’s the first time I’ve had access to it. Though I always survived just fine without, I have to admit it’s nice to have and I don’t really want to go back to an instrument without it now! That said, I actively dislike its placement on newer buffets, because it’s just too big and in the way for me. I much prefer the one on my Leblanc, and also the way it was on older Buffet prestiges etc, where you have to make an extra effort to reach for it. No accidental hits.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-09-01 09:57
When I studied in Italy-in prehistoric times-we were expected to play on full boehm and to play A clarinet parts on them by transposing. Transposing half a key down is strenuous!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2024-09-01 12:08
I was taught by a full Boehm player. However, he very much encouraged me to make up my own mind about everything clarinet related. I mostly decided to keep things simple to avoid complications. I must be simple-minded!
I had a pre-war 1010 with the RH forked Eb/Bb and the articulated C#/G#, which I quite liked.
As mentioned, choice is much more limited for these options.
One point that I do not see mentioned above, is the better venting of the C#. For that reason alone, I would like an articulated C#/G# but have had to live without because it is not commonly available.
Loss of the high, long F is a drawback, but the long, high F fingering does not work well on many A clarinets for me.
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2024-09-01 12:24
In my experience, the properly placed / vented C#/G# also improves the "normal" high F fingering (in sound, stability and intonation) which means that the long F fingering isn't quite as necessary.
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-09-01 15:22
When did the *closed* top F etc start to be called *long*?
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2024-09-01 15:38
graham wrote:
> When did the *closed* top F etc start to be called *long*?
My teacher was calling it "long" circa 1980
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-01 20:21
Attachment: polovtsian.png (213k)
I was told off by someone when I played this section from 'Polovtsian Dances' (boxed in red) using the fingerings I normally use. Their argument against not using the 'normal fingerings' were that I 'wouldn't remember them when I need to' when I can play this off from memory and it's one of my stock warm-up exercises.
I use the forked Bb fingerings for the Bbs instead of the side key fingering as it keeps everything in and under the LH fingers. And if I can play it from memory and have done for ages, why would I want to use 'normal' fingerings when these are my normal fingerings?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-01 21:09
Chris P wrote:
> I was told off by someone when I played this section from
> 'Polovtsian Dances' (boxed in red) using the fingerings I
> normally use. Their argument against not using the 'normal
> fingerings' were that I 'wouldn't remember them when I need to'
> when I can play this off from memory and it's one of my stock
> warm-up exercises.
>
This says more about the other person's confidence in *their* ability to remember alternates than about yours.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-01 23:07
Although I class the forked Eb/Bb as a standard fingering with full Boehms (and any clarinets with LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism fitted) as opposed to alternatives as for me anyway, they are a regular go-to fingering.
Another common comment I've heard time and time again from people is anyone who plays a full Boehm "won't be able to go back and play a 'normal' clarinet ever again". Only the other month I had a standard 17 key/6 ring Centered Tone I'd recently rebuilt and decided to take it out to a gig to play it in that setting to be sure it was all up to scratch before it got snapped up. I played it on 'Sunny Side' and didn't have any trouble playing it and similarly with other bog standard Boehms when I've tested them out in a real live setting.
One thing I do miss with regular Boehms is the lack of the articulated C#/G# mechanism as I do prepare the C#/G# by holding the touchpiece down in advance as you'd do on sax or oboe, but have to remember not to when playing a regular clarinet, flute or piccolo.
Out of all the woodwinds, I find flutes have the least options for trills and tremolos whereas oboes, clarinets and saxes have the most - especially saxes and clarinets as they have the luxury of side and trill keys to do far more things than just the notes/trills they're named for doing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarsax
Date: 2024-09-02 11:13
Thanks to Chris for talking about them,
I love Full Boehms, I currently have a Prestige
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-02 14:57
Attachment: Dietz Cis-Gis mechanism, Websize.jpg (159k)
For me the LH pinky Ab/Eb lever is mandatory, not only to reduce sliding but in some passages also as a more convenient and fluent alternative to the RH Ab/Eb. Sometimes also to alternate between LH and RH, when several Ab/Eb's appear in quick succession, enhancing fluency and accuracy (as I do in the 3:rd and 4:th bar following the red box in Chris's Polovtsian Dances excerpt above).
I would also love to have the LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism (xox|ooo), which I don' - both as a handy alternative to the long Bb (xoo|xoo) and as an in-tune alternative to the regular Eb fingerings.
The "regular" articulated C#/G# instead is an absolute no-no for me since I'm too dependant of the altissimo long F - and not only for better tuning, but even more since it's a lot more secure to hit (the more the longer the preceding interval). Besides that, I'm using a lot of other alternate altissimo fingerings involving an open G# together with one or more closed RH ring keys - sometimes for a better tuning, but often also for just added security.
That said, the lot simpler German articulated C#/G# mechanism would still be of interest to me - since it doesn't open the C#/G# pad, and thus doesn't restrict any altissimo fingerings (the f#-g# trill is executed only with the l.h. ring finger, thus changing between XXX|0X0 and XXO|0X0). The best version I've seen of this mechanism is the one by Dietz, on their top-of-the-line Reform Boehm clarinets (see the attached picture). Whats unique to that is the curved C#-key, which makes it independent of the key-cup "inside" it (on the Wurlitzer, Leitner&Kraus and Hüyng versions the C#-key arm goes straight over that key-cup, closing it when the C#-key is pressed down - thus neutralising any tuning effect from an independently open C#-key). For my part I can't see why this kind of mechanism couldn't be applied also on French system clarinets - as mechanically lot simpler and thus less sensitive to regulation, not affected by sticky pads, and especially since it's not restricting any altissimo fingerings.
Post Edited (2024-09-02 22:17)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-09-02 16:29
I hope this not too off topic, but it relates to the complement of pinky choices that full boehm clarinets make available, but I can't be the only one who takes a with the left pinky when it preceedes right pinky enhanced (if not mandatory) notes like ![[D6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/d6.gif) and above, can I?
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2024-09-02 21:47
SecondTry: No, you're not alone on that! It makes more sense (and is less "clunky") to me than "sliding" the pinky.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-09-03 00:17
Yep, most of the situations where long F is useful become redundant when you've got the properly placed/sized vent of the articulated mechanism (as Paulyb notes above)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-03 04:03
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,8374/Dietz%20Cis-Gis%20mechanism,%20Websize.jpg
That's not an articulated C# mechanism as such - it's simply the C#/G# touchpiece arm diverted around the D/A vent soldered to the LH3 ring key on reform Boehms so it won't lower or close it. The extra vent is there to fully vent D/A (xxo|ooo) as that note on most clarinets is effectively a forked note as there's a closed tonehole (C#/G#) between it and the C/G tonehole on the lower joint (RH ring key vent).
The D/A vent is fitted to some Buffet clarinets - most notably on some older model Prestige bass clarinets where it was on the opposite side of the upper joint and connected by a pushrod that ran through the joint wall (like the low D pushrod on Buffet basset horns) to close it when LH3 is held closed (and also allowed to use a smaller D/A tonehole and pad cup for LH3) and also Buffet basset horns have a D/A vent on the front which is linked directly to LH3 fingerplate by an adjusting screw - the normal C#/G# tonehole is around the side, almost right round to the back of the top joint.
These older Buffet Prestige basses also had a rudimentary Acton vent on the RH main action which is a small vent located in between the RH1 and RH2 fingerplates (and operated directly by the RH1 fingerplate) to fully vent B/F# when played with the regular (xxx|oxo) fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-03 18:18
Chris, you are absolutely correct that the pictured German mechanism isn't "literally", or technically speaking an "articulated C#" - but serves the same exact purpose, as it simplifies an otherwise two finger B/F#-C#/G# trill to a one finger action (though by moving the LH 3:rd finger instead of the RH 2:nd).
Thus on these kind of clarinets there are actually two separate fingerings for the C#/G#, either the usual xxxc#|ooo or the "extra" xxo|oxo (whether the C#/G# touchpiece arm goes around or over the D/A vent has no bearing on these fingerings, so the only "bonus" of the curved one is that the C#/G# can thus be used independently for resonance fingerings/tuning purposes - as if D/A, D#/Bb or E/B needs a "lift").
Interesting to know that some older Buffet basses actually had a D/A vent - which I would love some current maker to offer also on French system soprano clarinets (to get a simple F#-G# trill, without sacrificing any altissimo fingerings).
Another thing, since I don't think everyone reading this thread necessarily has ever seen a Full Boehm clarinet, could you perhaps attach a picture or two of your own absolutely beautiful FB Selmers - which I've seen before in some other thread?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-03 19:25
Attachment: series9eb.jpg (263k)
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets.jpg (702k)
Attachment: r4430.jpg (330k)
Attached are some of my Selmer full Boehms - a set of Series 9 Eb, Bb and A and my 1958 Centered Tone.
And the Bb and A in their adapted Yamaha double case:
https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/07.jpg
Were reform Boehms ever built to low Eb? I know some Oehler systems or some makers of Oehler systems have offered removable low Eb extensions for them, but I've never seen a reform Boehm built to low Eb which could be the ultimate clarinet to aficionados of them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2024-09-03 22:53)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-09-03 21:51
What scares me about clarinets and saxes with lots of extra keys is if I learn how to play them, I'll also try to play those key on my normal instruments. That's very bad, reaching for a key that isn't there due to muscle memory. So I need all my instruments to be similar in order to perform my best. Even though that extra key might makes the odd passage easier, I've already learned how to play it the hard way and reinforced it with 50 years of repetition. So thanks, but no thanks.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-04 11:06
Chris, thank's for the pics - such a gorgeous, complete set of yours. 
No, nor have I ever seen a Reform Boehm built to low Eb - only some makers offering either a complete basset clarinet to low C, or a separate, basset lower joint (both in A and Bb, at least from Wurlitzer).
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Author: Var
Date: 2024-09-04 22:57
Hi Chris,
Thank you for the post. Very interesting. Out of curiosity, in your experience how was the timbre and the pitch long B/low E with the addition of the low eb? I was mostly wondering if you were able to match the long B to the C as well as dial in the pitch more easily.
Many thanks,
VC
Post Edited (2024-09-04 23:11)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-05 02:18
Low E and F are still flat on these Selmers (as they were on my Leblanc LL full Boehm - click on the link below), although the low Eb used as a mid stave Bb does equalise the tone quality of that note if you want to keep things in the upper register compared to using throat Bb, especially going from C or B to A# as you're still in the upper register and not going from one extreme to another as you would normally do on a regular length clarinet.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,4509/leblancllfullboehm%20001.JPG
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2024-09-05 23:55
In the early 1970s while at Boston University I studied with Gino Cioffi. I was one of his few students at the time who did not buy a set of Selmer Series 9 full-Boehm clarinets. However, he offered to sell me a set of Buffet full-system horns (without the low Eb). I was very interested; I tried the Bb and it played very well. However, having recently borrowed money from my parents to buy a Selmer Model 33 bass clarinet I was not in a position to buy them.
I wish I had been able to buy them. I don't know if I would had used them on a regular basis but it would have been an interesting alternative, to say the least.
My own opinion about extra mechanisms is that if they are well maintained by an expert technician they will be dependable. I bought a Leblanc Model 100 alto saxophone in 1975 which I still have. It has a forked Bb, forked Eb, a few other alternate fingerings and a lot of adjusting screws. I've never had a problem with it.
Also, regarding a previous post, when Harold Wright replaced Cioffi in the Boston Symphony in 1970, Pasquale Cardillo and Felix Viscuglia immediately replaced their full-Boehm clarinets with standard-Boehm Selmers.
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2024-09-08 21:42
Nothing scares me about Full Boehms. At my age of 60+ and years of playing notes and passages the hard way, I say thanks, as they allowed a bit easier playing on certain things. I've played alto sax and Bb clarinet(high school and college). Now playing Eb clarinet with extra Eb key, Full Boehm Bb and Flute, and regular 17 key Bb and able to adapt to all quite easily. I welcome and enjoy the key additions as they do come in handy. Some welcome the challange and some don't. I've always welcomed the challenge.
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[Ab5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/ab5.gif)
trill:
