 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-22 20:48
I am curious if anyone has an opinion on what Muncy Winds is now doing.
Phil Muncy is charging $30 an hour to try clarinets. I don't know how recently he has started this, but I am considering letting them know how I feel about it. I don't want to burn any bridges but I think they need to know.
I was down there recently trying new R13 clarinets for a student of mine. Phil is very nice and likes to be there while you try his instruments...with help and suggestions (even if you have ears with you already). I certainly understand wanting to protect the clarinets from overuse and/or misuse! That is one reason I wanted to go there...I think they take great care of their clarinets, but I personally felt rushed and that I could not concertrate on what I was there to do partly because of (I'm sure all well intentioned) chatiness.
I probably spent almost an hour eventually trying the instrumnets...it wasn't easy once I was there to get this thing going first of all....had to listen to the philosophy of selecting clarinets first (good info but not very short and sweet)...afterall they were closing in less than two hours and I needed to start! I had a plan of my own already. When I finished trying, my friend/colleague and I just hung around for another 20 to 30 minutes talking with Phil. He ended up charing me for the time I was THERE!...NOT the time I tried the instruments. I even felt that part of the time I actually was trying the clarinets was interfered with by talk! I had already gone out of my way for a student and had quite a long drive before and after this situation.
What I want to ask Muncy to consider:
1.)How about at least a refund for the "time" if a sale is made? Is making the sale itself not good enough anymore? I'm serious!
2.)Maybe a lower price per hour.....or a flat fee of $30?
Who wants to be RUSHED while making this important decision!!!?
I was trying to hold off on my opinion before I heard from others but I couldn't help myself. I would rather not be annoyed by this anymore becasue I have had nothing but good relations with MUncy for years.
Why are they doing this?
I don't think this new policy is a good idea and I want to let them know....first, what do you all think?
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-22 20:53
Sounds skethcy... but not unrealistic. If they were to ship you several clarinets to try you would be responsible for shipping which could cost as much as 100 dollars each way for express. Look at it as being able to use his facility and expertise for an hour oe two, and be fortunate that you get to be right there... not everyone is close to such a facility, including myself.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2006-04-22 21:07
I think I'd do my business elsewhere than to pay $30 an hour to try out clarinets, which are high-dollar instruments. Then again, maybe the American auto industry would benefit from such a policy--pay the dealer $30 an hour to test drive American autos! Think how many more cars would be sold!
Maybe the entire US economy could be turned around if businesses charged $30 an hour to try out any of their products.
Mary Jo
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-22 21:14
[ An email has been sent to Phil Muncy inviting him to participate in this thread - GBK ]
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2006-04-22 21:50
I set up an appointment to try out clarinets at Muncy in December. At least at that time, this $30 an hour was optional. If you just wanted to come by and try out horns the trial time was free. The $30 an hour was for Phil to sit in with you and give another set of ears. Also, if you felt that the instrument needed adjustment, Phil would do that as part of the $30 an hour fee. For those that cannot take a teacher along or are not quite confident in their choosing abilities, I think this fee is a steal. This is much less than most teachers charge for an hour of instruction.
If you felt that he was wasting your time, remember this, "He who has the gold makes the rules!"
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-22 22:58
Sure it sounds screwy, but I do understand it. As others stated above, trying them by mail would cost you more between shipping/restocking fees.
And to the original poster, did you find out if the time spent is taken off the purchase price of a clarinet should you choose to buy one? (much like restocking fees waived if you decide to keep one).
While it sounds like a new thing to me, I can justify what they're doing. Although it certainly sounds like it'd be a deterrent to shop elsewhere that also has a selection of clarinets and NO trial fees.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2006-04-22 22:58
If you buy the clarinet do they deduct the $30?
I guess they want to discourage "tire-kickers"
If you were a frequent flier at Muncy and bought instruments from him in the past, I wonder why the did not waive the fee.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-22 23:22
Why complain here?
Talk to Muncy Winds or let it go. It is your choice.
Muncy's policy about the cost of trying out clarinets is clearly specified on their web site as is their policy of 14 days trial on horns purchased online, and I believe a small cleaning fee if they are returned. I recently asked them about their policies via email and received a courteous and prompt reply. I did this before I went into their store and before I made a big purchase from them over the Internet, although I have made several purchases of a few hundred dollars per order from them in the past and have always been treated extremely well. I am currently seriously considering a large purchase from them based on the very good reputation they seem to have on this Bulletin Board and my own prior experience on smaller purchases.
If you don't like Muncy's policies and/or their prices you just go elsewhere. Lots of folks sell R13s and Leblanc Concertos and Selmer Signatures including dozens who are just a Google search away. If you don't like Phil Muncy sitting in the room while you test clarinets, you tell him to leave or you do. In the USA, the buyer has the right and opportunity to purchase anywhere they choose and the seller has the right to set any sale conditions and price they wish, so long as the conditions do not violate federal, state, and local laws and the prices do not violate contracts with the suppliers nor any laws about price-fixing. [Thank goodness we do not live in those remaining backward communist and totalitarian countries where the state tries to fix the sales price, sale conditions, and availability of consumer products.]
Muncy has decided that the $30/hour policy is a good business practice for them. If you don't like it, go elsewhere or negotiate a rebate of this fee as a condition of your purchase of an instrument from them. You cannot assume somebody will not negotiate if you have not asked them to do so.
You do not have the right in the USA to tell Muncy how to run their business unless they are doing something that violated federal, state, or local laws, and intervention will either have to be through contacting a governmental regulating agency that may file charges or otherwise intervene or through a civil lawsuit. You do have the right to refuse to do business with them and take your business elsewhere.
In an era when the Internet retailers (and Muncy is reported to be a highly reputable one) are very competitive on prices, it is not surprising that the sale margins have become so low that extra services (use of a studio to test instruments, the presence of an onsite expert to help select and fine tune an instrument, little extra items tossed in to close a sale) must be charged for in order to make a profit on a sale.
In general, America has very efficient markets, and the Internet has made them more efficient. If a seller is charging too much without offering an enhanced package of products and services, sellers go elsewhere. I see nothing wrong with Muncy or anyone else attempting to make a fair profit on their investment in their business. And, if any of the vendors try to make an unfairly high profit, some other vendor will probably undercut their prices, so the folks charging too much will either have to adapt or go out of business.
George
Post Edited (2006-04-22 23:30)
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Author: Stephane
Date: 2006-04-22 23:36
Muncy is also charging $1 to people each time they check out the website.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-22 23:46
ghuba wrote:
> You do not have the right in the USA to tell Muncy how to run
> their business unless they are doing something that violated
> federal, state, or local laws, and intervention will either
> have to be through contacting a governmental regulating agency
> that may file charges or otherwise intervene or through a civil
> lawsuit.
No such claim was made or implied. I'm surprised you brought up this strawman.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-23 00:23
Mark,
There is no strawman here. Muncy has a stated policy. They did what they said they would. Their business practices are legal and presumably in what they believe to be the best interests of the owners and employees of their company.
Now, the poster -- who agreed to the condition by participating -- wants to determine "fairness" by soliciting Internet opinions, and is questioning what is "right" and "wrong." So long as the business does nothing illegal it is not "wrong."
On the other hand, a business can be dumb by setting its prices too high, having practices customers abhor, or just being difficult to deal with. Consumers notice this and can take their business elswhere if they want to do so. And yes, business owners also have a legal right to be dumb, obnoxious, and difficult so long as they operate their businesses within legal parameters. Just like customers have the legal right to pay too much, accept conditions of sale they find reprehensible, and get abused by difficult businesses. Capitalism is a great economic model but it also requires both customers and sellers to look out for their own interests.
The bottom line is this. If the poster does not like Muncy's (legal) business practices then he should not seek Internet opinions about what to do and potentially adversely impact Muncy's business and reputation before he first negotiates with Muncy Winds and gives them a chance to fix the situation. If he does not like what Muncy thinks is a fair negotiated solution, he should then feel free to post his problems publicly so that others can potentially learn from his negative experiences. In the extreme, he can complain to the better business bureau.
But if Muncy Winds did nothing illegal (and I strong believe they did not), at least give them the chance to fix the problem first before widely discussing how to handle the problem and possibly hurting the reputation and business of this vendor. I find it very hard to believe that a vendor with the good reputation of this one would not fix this situation that may have occurred through a simple misunderstanding, the customer not having done his homework, Muncy having had a bad day, or any combination of these factors.
George
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-23 01:46
Quote:
Now, the poster -- who agreed to the condition by participating -- wants to determine "fairness" by soliciting Internet opinions, and is questioning what is "right" and "wrong."....The bottom line is this. If the poster does not like Muncy's (legal) business practices then he should not seek Internet opinions about what to do and potentially adversely impact Muncy's business and reputation before he first negotiates with Muncy Winds and gives them a chance to fix the situation. If he does not like what Muncy thinks is a fair negotiated solution, he should then feel free to post his problems publicly so that others can potentially learn from his negative experiences. In the extreme, he can complain to the better business bureau. Whether or not the poster believes it's right or wrong, the option lies with him/her. And the poster did say that he/she was going to bring it up to muncy but wanted to ask our opinions. There's nothing wrong with that.
Ultimately, I'm glad that this was brought up. I always welcome an interesting topic and I think the whole $30 an hour for trying out instruments certainly is an interesting topic! Also, I think it's good to make future buyers aware of their policy. No harm in letting them know about policy via a BBoard rather than them finding out in person when they arrive.
I think it's an interesting discussion. As to the consumer potentially affecting Muncy's business, that's the beauty of America! We are allowed to form and voice our opinions (well, voice them here so long as we follow the boardmaster's rules). I'm of the opinion that I don't fault Muncy for enforcing such a policy. I can understand why they have formed it, but, ultimately, it's a policy which might end up in my going elsewhere to purchase a clarinet were I ever interested in doing so.Quote:
probably spent almost an hour eventually trying the instrumnets...it wasn't easy once I was there to get this thing going first of all....had to listen to the philosophy of selecting clarinets first (good info but not very short and sweet)...afterall they were closing in less than two hours and I needed to start! I had a plan of my own already. When I finished trying, my friend/colleague and I just hung around for another 20 to 30 minutes talking with Phil. He ended up charing me for the time I was THERE!...NOT the time I tried the instruments. I even felt that part of the time I actually was trying the clarinets was interfered with by talk! I personally would address this situation. I'm sure you were made aware of their trial policy beforehand and so agreed to being charged to try out instruments, but if you're asking for opinions, I'd certainly make it known that were charged for time that wasn't even spent trying out instruments. And I'd fight for that money back. Whether it be cash, or store credit.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-23 01:46
... and ...
It is very hard for me to believe that the opinion of a highly experienced specialist who has heard hundreds (thousands) of new Buffet and Leblanc and Selmer clarinets played each year would not be worth A LOT more than $30/hour to ensure that the best possible $2400 or more purchase was made.
Knowledge and experience are VERY VALUABLE commodities.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-23 01:50
ghuba wrote:
> ... and ...
>
> It is very hard for me to believe that the opinion of a highly
> experienced specialist who has heard hundreds (thousands) of
> new Buffet and Leblanc and Selmer clarinets played each year
> would not be worth A LOT more than $30/hour to ensure that the
> best possible $2400 or more purchase was made.
>
> Knowledge and experience are VERY VALUABLE commodities.
>
I agree with that. Just like there are teachers out there that will charge a fee for helping to pick a clarinet for that same reason. They have knowledge and experience in choosing an instrument and have heard many and so can give good advice.
But once again, I think that it should be an OPTION as to whether you want Phil's help on choosing an instrument or not. Whether he charges you for trying them out or not is a separate topic, but all in all it's his store and ultimately, he can pretty much set up his policies any way he feels fit.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-23 01:50
Ok now, enough of the legal /illegal splatter. This is so for away from the point.
I never implied that the policy was not clearly stated!
Please notice that I said I actually have had years of good relations with Muncy Winds.
I think Phil Muncy is a very nice and helpful person. I knew I would be charged for trying the clarinets. I merely thought that in my situation the time spent doing this was exaggerated...live and learn. I am interested in the idea that having the help there if you need it used to be optional, in that case it's a great thing!
I was simply interested in what others have experienced or not.
I am not trying to hurt anybody's reputation...I don't have the power to do that anyway.
I am only concerned because I don't want to be pushed to do my business elsewhere if Muncy has been a good sorce for me.
I obviously know that I can go elsewhere and I have.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-23 02:06
ghuba wrote:
> There is no strawman here.
Most certainly there was. The poster was very clear in what he said. Bringing up legal/illegal policy is a strawman. It was stated clkearly there was no intent to deceive.
It is a very appropriate discussion on whether or not charging some amount of money to try out instruments, with or without professional help, is usual, customary, or appropriate. It is not appropriate at this point to take the discussion further than that.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-23 02:06
Al wrote:
> I was simply interested in what others have experienced or not.
> I am not trying to hurt anybody's reputation...I don't have the
> power to do that anyway.
>
Actually you do have this power to some degree. Negative statements do have business implications. And, while most readers of this board will never walk into Muncy's store, many could be Internet or trade show customers who are now a little concerned and distrustful.
> I am only concerned because I don't want to be pushed to do my
> business elsewhere if Muncy has been a good sorce for me.
> I obviously know that I can go elsewhere and I have.
Muncy Winds gets to determine how they want to do business. But, you might find that they agree with your points and will make special accomodations for a good customer if you call them up and talk to them.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-23 03:14
sfalexi wrote:
>
> But once again, I think that it should be an OPTION as to
> whether you want Phil's help on choosing an instrument or not.
> Whether he charges you for trying them out or not is a separate
> topic, but all in all it's his store and ultimately, he can
> pretty much set up his policies any way he feels fit.
>
Alexi, I do not disagree with you on this.
I also believe that Muncy Winds is also entitled to charge you for using one of their studio spaces per hour if they wish to do. They are paying rent for that space and they certainly are not obligated to make such space available to a clarinet purchaser for free. If you do not like paying for this, do not go into their store.
By the way, while I have staunchly defended Mr. Muncy's right to run his business any way he wants (so long as he stays within legal parameters), I would state the following about my own business. If you were to walk into my office in Los Angeles or Chapel Hill to discuss a potential purchase from me, I would talk to you for some significant period of time for free and I would not charge you to sit in my space, even offering you all of the soft drinks and coffee you could drink and probably letting you use my phones to conference call in your colleagues from anywhere in the US. And my only business is selling consulting time, which I can assure you costs a lot more than $30/hour, so it costs me more than $30 for you to sit talking to me or one of my employees for an hour. On the other hand, I also am not going to be "selling" you a clarinet in which there is a $240 profit.
While I do run my business using a different model than may be used by Muncy Winds, I (obviously) staunchly defend their right to charge for their evaluation time if they think that is the best business model for them.
George
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-23 03:21
ghuba,
This $30 trail fee was just a new way of doing thing that I ran across recently, and I wanted to know what the word on the street was.
My main issue really is the feeling that being charged while you are trying to make an important decision only compounds the difficulty (if you do not need the help of a trained professional in the store).
Hurry!...pick a clarinet!
One nice thing about the situation is that the clarinets are there ready to go all set up in a row for you when you get there...still a time consuming process none the less.
Time to practice!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-23 03:26
ghuba wrote:
>
> I also believe that Muncy Winds is also entitled to charge you
> for using one of their studio spaces per hour if they wish to
> do.
OF COURSE THEY ARE! There's no argument. The discussion is whether or not they SHOULD, not whether or not they CAN. We all agree they CAN charge to try out their instruments.
Please limit the discussion to that point.
It will be interesting to see them charge $30/hr in a private room at ClarinetFest.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-23 03:42
Mark Charette wrote:
> ghuba wrote:
>
> > There is no strawman here.
>
> Most certainly there was. The poster was very clear in what he
> said. Bringing up legal/illegal policy is a strawman. It was
> stated clkearly there was no intent to deceive.
>
> It is a very appropriate discussion on whether or not charging
> some amount of money to try out instruments, with or without
> professional help, is usual, customary, or appropriate. It is
> not appropriate at this point to take the discussion further
> than that.
Mark,
Billing policy and amounts billed between a specific vendor and customer are under dispute here and that has been stated. Yes, the amounts are small by business standards (at most $30-$60 or so) but it has been contended (if I read the emails correctly) that the customer paid for several hours of studio time but only used the studio for testing clarinets for an hour because of unproductive time caused by the overall process before and after the testing that was unwanted and unnecessary from the perspective of this customer. Had no money exchanged hands or if the customer felt the charges were warranted, the initial post would never have been made. This was not a theoretical discussion about charging or not charging for services, but was started as a discussion of a publicly-stated business policy at Muncy Winds and whether the customer should "confront" Mr. Muncy.
George
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2006-04-23 03:56
What's a "strawman?"
Is that a idiomatic or slang word.
Or was he in Oz with the tinman?
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-04-23 04:01
Thanks for your input George. As usual you always add something positive to this forum.
jmsa
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-23 04:07
This discussion WAS intended to be theoretical.
I am not asking whether or not I should "confront" Muncy. I can make my own decisions about that as I said before.
I want to know what people think about being charged for time....time I believe should be for the customer not the dealer...whoever they may be.
Will other dealers start doing this? Will it be optional? Will this be a new trend to be aware of or to make use of?
I don't know anything about being charged to visit their web site...I don't think this is true...I have been there several times.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-23 04:10
Al wrote:
> I don't know anything about being charged to visit their web
> site...I don't think this is true...I have been there several
> times.
It was a bit of sarcasm. A joke. A simple visit to the Muncy site would have confirmed it.
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-04-23 05:37
I would never, ever pay by the hour to try clarinets if I could avoid it. This seems to me throughly disingenuous to the consumer. Clarinets are expensive enough (yes, I know they are cheaper compared to most instruments, but for students who have to save up, this is another expense to put a good quality clarinet out of reach). You aren't charged by most places to take a car for a test drive, why should you be charged to take clarinets for a similar evaluation. I hope this doesn't become a trend. I certainly won't be looking for new instruments at Muncy anytime.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-04-23 06:17
If the questions is : should they ask mony for testing ? then my answer is NO.
When buying an instrument for the orchestra we always ask prices in several shops and the availability (# of instrument ready for test). We never ever even thought of asking a question that this testing was NOT for free.
Then we visit the shop with the best offer, (mostly with a pro teacher - who also does this for free for his student) and test. Don' like, don't buy.
Most shops work like that, and we still are buying from most of them from time to time, in the long term we all win from this ...
Peter
would be crazy world if everybody started asking money for testing before buying ;-)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-23 06:38
I'm not saying this is what is going on at Muncy's, but re-stocking/cleaning/maintaining and adjusting clarinets that were playtested everyday by different people (and not all people treat clarinets kindly, even with playtesting) can become tedious and it costs money. Not to say that they don't make enough money to do this, but it takes time and resources away from repairs for customers if someone decides to playtest twenty R13s for two hours, doesn't buy any of them, and in the meantime assembles/dissassembles them without putting on cork grease, crushes the keys/rings/levers while twisting the joints into place, leaves their saliva on every single one. Or they use an exorbant amount of cork grease, getting it all over the tenons and sockets, all over the keys, gets it inside the tone holes that their index fingers touch, etc. etc.
And it was all for nought as they decided not to purchase a clarinet that day.
If I were an owner/operator of a company where I might see situations like this on a regular basis, I'd start enforcing some sort of detterrents too. And since I may not always have the time to sit and watch to make sure the instruments are treated correctly, maybe anticipating making up some of the cost of adjustments, cleanings, and restocking of those twenty R13s and putting that cost in the customer's hands upfront would work.Quote:
If the questions is : should they ask mony for testing ? then my answer is NO.
If that is indeed a question we look at in this thread, then my answer is yes. They should be charging money. I don't know how much, but let's face it. Every time we test clarinets, we are costing THEM money. Even if in just the form of time cleaning the instruments afterwards (assuming that whatever store we go to is reputable enough to actually clean/sanitize them afterwards). I think that those stores that AREN'T charging are simply cutting us a break. Much like those aforementioned car dealerships who allow free test drives even though they end up fronting the bill for the gas, wear and tear on a vehicle, and it's depreciation as miles are put on it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2006-04-23 06:38)
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2006-04-23 06:58
Do they charge money for test driving cars in the US?
They don't here(Australia), and it seems to me that it is similiar(though not totally the same).
Just curious...
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2006-04-23 07:03
None of the car dealerships I've ever been to have charged money for test driving a car. But maybe there are those out there that do.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-23 11:19
Perhaps Phil is trying to bring home the point that you don't need all that much time to pick out a horn? I mean, is it really necessary? Just buy a horn and play it, I always say.
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-23 14:19
I absolutely agree that it is a cost to the operator/dealer to adjust if needed, clean and restock instruments after they have been tried. But, if this is what the charge is for....why not call it that and why on earth have it be a hourly rate?
I am glad that Phil Muncy is in the area to make sure clarinets are not being overplayed and its nice that he sets them up so as to avoid the possible scenario mentioned above...too much cork grease/too little cork grease...bent keys...etc.
This is why I know they are taking care of these clarinets and why I went there.
I just wish that the $30 per hour help was optional...not everyone wants the same kind of horn. It is so subjective. I may not want to have a clarinet sound/feel the same as someone else...someone I have never heard play. That is why it is good to have someone you know...a teacher or colleague with you if possible. Someone who knows your playing.
If you can't have this, or if you are knew to selecting clarinets then by all means, what Phil is offering is great (if it is just that...offering).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-23 15:35
I think car dealers would start charging quite smartly if customers wanted to compare-test 10 different vehicles of the same model, for an hour, on a muddy road... muddy road being the equivalent of what Alexi describes.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2006-04-23 15:41
I am getting ready to buy a new Buffet Bb clarinet for the first time in 32 years. I'm also going to buy a used A. I've been looking at different places that I want to buy these from and who I want to deal with. I will not be dealing with Muncy Winds if the $30 hourly rate for trying clarinets applies.
I think, like Al does, that this is probably a very valuable service that Mr. Muncy provides but should be optional for those that want it. I've done a lot of research on clarinets and have been playing for 35 years so I don't know that I need the same information or "speech" on selecting a quality clarinet that a younger, less experienced player would need.
My dad was in business for 36 years and I learned that there are three things that make a company successful.
Product, Price and Customer Service.
It sounds like Mr. Muncy has provided these three elements for many years quite well but if he starts charging for his customer service it will now become a product or be viewed as such and, for me, blurrs the lines we all once understood in the business world.
We're now questioning how this would work in the auto industry well, take it another step to the clothing industry. What if you had to pay to try on the clothes you were thinking of buying and wanted to see if they fit. Someone has to take them out of the dressing room, rehang those clothes and replace them back on the racks. Sometimes they're even stained from women's makeup etc. and there's a loss. Takes time and manpower. Do we start charging everyone for this service? There was a skit done on the show "Women behaving Badly" that dealt with this very theme. They charged women to go into the dressing room. It was met with hostility. I think it's just all part of doing business and it should be figured into the overhead of the company if it's costing that much to clean the corks and restock them.
I realize that it's also Mr. Muncy's time but that's where the "Customer Service" comes in. He's a salesman and that's what business is. You don't charge your customers by the hour to make a sale. Salesman used to bend over backwards to make a sale. It was called "wining and dining" them and there was competition for people's business. The people with the money in their pockets were the ones with the power in the relationship. For me, it still is.
No, I won't take my business to Mr. Muncy even though I respect him. He's crossed a line for me.
I can see placing a one time fee for professional services to help select a clarinet if someone wants that particular service. I'm sure Mr. Muncy has tremendous knowlege that would be very valuable to a lot of young, and old alike, but it should be the choice of those seeking the information, not a mandatory, hourly fee to come in and play test his instruments. I'm also sure that there are instrument salespeople who will give that knowledge away freely with the hope of selling a clarinet. Who do you suppose will get the sale if there were a competition between the two? The reality is that there is a competition between them. I suppose we'll see what happens with this new trend.
Rebecca
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-23 16:13
Well, as it looks no one in here knows for sure whether or not Mr Muncy waives the fee if a sale is made.
I know from other businesses that complain about the increasing number of customers who try stuff and absorb a salesperson for hours on end, then say "thank you, but I don't like it" and order the same piece of equipment (a camera, for instance) online or walk over to the box-moving discounter. Seen in that light I find a trial fee justified, especially when restocking work is involved.
Same applies if you bring a defective item for repairs. Here you usually pay some 30$ for a cost estimate which is normally refunded when you actually have the item repaired.
I would expect that every good business person gives the customer a refund (or doesn't charge in the first place) if finally a sale is made and I have yet to find a dealer who doesn't give you the one or other discount, for whatever reason. (I usually get 10% off the list price "just for showing up", for investment goods at least)
The other solution might be to add 30$ to the price tag of every instrument, but then you 'punish' the easily satisfied customer who just needs an off-the-rack horn for marching band.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-23 17:29
Sounds reasonable to me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-23 17:34
Having sat through one-too-many "tire kcking" sessions in my home, I gave up selling instruments entirely. I consider this approach is reasonable, given how many bottom feeders came to my door, screeched through dozens of mouthpieces and left me with nothing but a headache.
Or tried to trade a rusty student sax at retail price toward a restored vintage horn... Phil's on the right track - his time is worth plenty.
I would be not be surprised to see their total sales unaffected by this.
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Author: Al
Date: 2006-04-23 19:51
I don't think anyone suggested that his time is not worth anything.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-23 20:05
He is the owner of a privately owned company, not an instructer or not an employee. His fee is covered by the mark-ups of the instruments he sells. That's what a 'company' means. Do you pay a tip to a company's president? That is what ordinary people think.
To compare tuition to this 30$ is ridiculous.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-24 16:44
I've never purchased an instrument from Muncy, but have purchased many other items and have always felt their merchandise was high quality and their prices below retail. So, with good prices and good selection from a knowledgeable seller, I wouldn't mind paying Phil $30.00 an hour for his time. You can have him send you two or three to play-test at home and, as mentioned before, you'll be out the shipping and the charges on your credit card. So, $30.00 an hour if you can drive there doesn't seem too bad to me.
But, Al, it sounds like a mixup or misunderstanding on your experience. Sorry that happened.
And, the deal about $1.00 to view the website stated earlier is bogus--as mentioned by Mark.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-24 18:38
If I had charged $30 an hour for all of my time that people have wasted trying out MY instruments and mouthpieces --- I might not be sitting here at work doing things that don't interest me, I'd be at home practicing. I'm with Synonymous Botch on this one.
An example: Someone who shall remain nameless asked me to make him/her a few special mouthpieces to accommodate a certain physical disability, which calls for a mouthpiece with the minimum possible resistance, yet still playing well with a good sound. Some famous mouthpiece makers had already provided samples, which were all turned down as unsuitable. I was reluctant to do anything because I was expecting to have happen what did in fact happen in the end: I spent a fair amount of time refacing a couple of mouthpieces to provide playing characteristics I don't normally try to achieve, sent them out, only to have them returned as unsuitable. So, I spent that time to no avail, and I'm now stuck with two 'weird' mouthpieces which I'll have to "re-reface" before anyone else can use them.
I have some sympathy for Mr. Muncy.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-24 19:10
If an instrument store in my country would want to do this they can might as well close the store instead....
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-24 19:34
I've been in a few instrument stores in Israel (if clarnibass is still there), and they were pretty pricey!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-24 19:56
Yes I'm in Israel, and you are right, the music stores here are very pricey comapred with the stores in the USA (although paychecks on avarage here are much smaller). That doesn't contradict at all what I said in the post above. If a store here would charge $30 an hour for trying instruments no one would even come to try them.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-24 20:15
Well...if I sell equipment near or even above the suggested retail price I'd be wary of setting up "service fees". OTOH, if I bend over backwards to get a competitive price then everything beyond the very basic "customer handling" will drive me into the red.
I speak from experience; having worked for a large computer manufacturer I first saw free support, 60 days' price protection and whatnot. Of course, the prices were hefty. Over the years, competition challenged our prices everywhere, and meanwhile toll free support is more or less a thing of the past and every extra handshake costs extra, every "custom modification" is non-refundable. Now we [customers] literally get what we pay for. I'm not sure wether or not I like this "cost truth", but we have to live with it.
--
Ben
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Author: mtague
Date: 2006-04-24 20:41
Well, on the track of being charged for every little thing, including customer support, sometimes the cost of actually doing something different for the customer is much less than the charge that is applied. So I'm not sure how much "truth" is actually in the cost.
As for the charging for try-out time... I haven't experienced that and I've never shopped Muncy Winds. I would be somewhat annoyed with a fee like that here, since when I did try out some clarinets, I was only given 4 different models, one of which was a model I'd never heard of (Leblanc "Soloist") and the rest being buffets. Not the best of selections. I'm assuming the selection is better at Muncy and probably the service too.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-25 07:18
A couple of things here.....
1) While you may not pay to test-drive a car, you do pay a mechanic to take a look at it for you (as everyone should prior to purchase). It's just that in this case the mechanic is selling you the car himself.....knowing Phil Muncy's reputation this is probably a good thing
2) I don't know the current mark-up on instruments, but it's probably not all that great. Most places make their money on smaller, high-margin items like electronics, reeds, etc. There's just too many people selling at the very low end to expect to charge a lot of money (and increase your profit margin) and still keep your business
I probably wouldn't mind the fee if I were at a shop that specializes in clarinets or even woodwinds.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2006-04-25 08:27
I definitely would avoid Muncy's if I had to pay for testing. One thing is charging for shipping when you want to try them at home (instruments gone away for several days, handling, insurance etc.) but once you have incurred costs to get to the shop (and look at the petrol prices here!!) to be charged??
I bought the RC from a dealer with whom we had previously arranged testing: two clarinets each of the four models we might have bought, plus a Selmer signature that the Teacher wanted to try out: took our own mouthpieces.
The shop is nearly 150 year old family run business, but I don't think they would have recommended the same clarinet as the one we eventually bought as liked by the teacher: who was right, as once it got going, it has turned out to be an exceptional instrument, with excellent problem-free keywork/mechanism (on a Buffet!!). So really the fee should be optional for people who feel they want the help.
This is probably because the teacher knew the student's playing over a 3-year period as compared to the hour or two you may play in the shop. This was this teachers first visit to that particular shop (he is forma different part of the country) and since then he has bought several clarinets from them, and recommended them to colleagues so I think the shop was well benefitted in giving him all the trial time he wanted (about 2 and half hours in the end).
On the prices... Sherman Freidland's corner comments that the markup is 50% in the catalogue price, so that he gets a 30% discount and the shop still has 20% of an expensive product. Here, the standard discount in this and other good stores is 20% (plus any freebies you might wrangle such as pack of reeds) and 25-30% in the online one (however, no facilities for shipping instruments for trial & no freebies). I know that it is this for sure because if you go to our big department store chain here and ask for the prices, they dig out the catalogue, and you can see the recommended retail price of Buffet/ or whatever there...they won't give you any discount.
Just a thought....my other child plays the violin...can you imagine how much you would pay if you got charged for trying out those? OK theres no saliva-cork grease issues, but there is rosin dust, scrapes and knocks, scratches on varnish, set up the bridge soundpost and what nots to get them ready for trial and then presumable undo all that work. OK before everyone goes and talks about the price difference, I am actually talking about 1000-3000 euro violins for students.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-25 13:14
One of the things that strikes me about this situation is that the poster said that the chatting actually interfered with the selection time and that the time began with a primer on the philosophy of how to select a clarinet - this given to a teacher that was already in the practice of selecting clarinets.
I'd want a benefit for my $30, not a hindrance.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-25 14:00
(Disclaimer - I know Pam and Phil Muncy but have no special business relationship other than selling and buying products on a regular commercial basis)
Another disclaimer is that this is totally my opinion, biased experience base as a small business person, and grossly overcommitted person.
Pam and Phil are nice people who are successful brick and mortar and internet sellers of all kinds of musical instruments, accessories, and repair services - perhaps especially well known for woodwinds. It is their right and responsibility to make whatever business decisions and policies that they feel appropriate for their business, and they will prosper or fail ultimately because of these decisions and outside market forces and trends.
From my own perspective as having a full time job as a scientist, private consultant, small business owner and also instrument seller I am all too aware of the value of my time and it is a constant reevaluation of how I spend my time that fattens or starves various aspects of my business ventures. Time must be factored into any business decision and a value placed on it. Small business may make and change many business policies and decisions based on actual need, or perceived needs to better manage the everyday conduct of business and conservation of time spent.
People buy time from others either directly by the clock or as embedded costs of products or services that they purchase. The value of the time has different perspectives - those of the person selling the time, or the perceived or actual, if the time is spent producing a tangible product, value to the person buying the time.
In this case, Phil has obligations to run and manage the actual store business and employees, oversee the Oliveri reed business, and make his own products such as barrels. Selecting, preparing, and offering advice and listening to customers trying out instruments is another use of his time. I do not know exactly what his policy is but that is a decision that he has made to manage his time and resources of the business. Another aspect is physical space which carries a cost of overhead and space allocation and usage within brick and mortar places of business, which has a finite cost. Again, how these costs are passed on to the customer is the decision of the business owner. How the customer reacts, and buys or does not buy a product will ultimately influence the way that the business owner passes on his fixed costs of space and their own time.
Personally, I feel that an experience base and knowledge by a professional player is a valuable asset in selecting a clarinet. The value of this approach may be perceived differently by different people based on their own experience base, skill level, or just individual preferences in selecting instruments. The approach that has been sited for charging for either the space used for a period of time or the additional services of providing assessment of the instruments or models tested may or may not be of value to a given individual. Ultimately this set of policies, applied in this way, may or not be helpful to the Muncys. If it is not I feel that they are nimble enough and smart enough to change the policies to encourage more business, this is their decision to make.
A totally different perspective, which I believe to be true, is that discussions on this BB are skewed toward more talented, experienced, knowledgeable, and perhaps independent and opinioned individuals and may therefore not be necessarily applicable to the majority of customers for any given business. Granted there are a number of professional players, teachers, and just players which read and post on this BB but the views and even consensus opinions may not reflect the majority of the buying public. Any business must evaluate and center their business practices to the majority of their paying customers and their policies may not be popular to a majority, minority, or perhaps a few people who post on this BB, but may be the best decision for their particular business.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-25 14:13
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
> It is their right and
> responsibility to make whatever business decisions and policies
> that they feel appropriate for their business, and they will
> prosper or fail ultimately because of these decisions and
> outside market forces and trends.
...
We're going over the same ground again and again ...
No one disputes the assertion that Muncy Winds has every right to set the policy of charging - either for the time Phil spends or for the setup/tryout time.
I am trying to keep the discussion towards whether or not this is a good policy, and whether or not you'd frequent a shop that sets a flat fee to try out their instruments. It would also be helpful to find out whether that fee is refunded if you buy, if the fee is not applied if you don't want help, if the re is a fee just for trials, if in fact the fee is applied evenly (to both professional and non-professional players, whatever that means), and whether or not it will be applied at all exhibitions where Muncy Woodwinds may appear (meaning - should I just wait for a show and use Phil's expertise for free if he's there?).
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-25 14:45
I am trying to keep the discussion towards whether or not this is a good policy, and whether or not you'd frequent a shop that sets a flat fee to try out their instruments.
Just for the sake of argument: What would you do if you owned a shop?
--
Ben
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2006-04-25 14:52
In answer to the original question ( I think anyway)... if I was in the market for a new instument and there was a place where I could sit down and try a bunch of them, then yes, I would gladly pay the $30/hr.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-25 14:54
Mark, thanks - I agree that there should be certain "givens" about the rights of business to set their policies. I guess that my point and your concerns are how we react to such policies, the potential rationale for the policy to begin with and its financial basis, and the perceived or actual application of policies to different strata of customers and situations of instrument sales which need discussion. I guess that my own perspective is that Phil's time and try out room time has a tangible value which in total must be either recouped by charging more for the instrument or as an add on to the price of the instrument. I do not know how he handles all aspects of this, and as with many of us it may be play it as you go and whatever feels right at the time. You may agree or disagree with such an approach and it may seem unfair if this is how it is handled but this is ultimately up to Phil. He may or may wish to post an answer and chisel it in stone, or proceed as he sees fit. His policies have just blurted onto the radar screen as opposed to the same practices of others that are not visible because they just add onto the cost of the instrument directly. If the policy is applied haphazardly then it is ultimately up to the individual to decide if they have been treated appropriately and make a buying decision or not. It is not uncommon in business however to treat individuals differently because of current time constraints, past buying history, interactional "chemistry", customer knowledge base, or whether we have a headache that day or not!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-25 15:04
tictactux wrote:
> Just for the sake of argument: What would you do
> if you owned a shop?
I have have helped to start 3 businesses and been a director in a startup.
The costs of doing business are just that. All costs normally end up being paid by the customer; but in this case the full costs of demonstration & trial are being paid by prospective customers. That's unusual to say the least.
All those companies above had marketing or pre-sales budgets derived from post-sales profits. Trial of instruments should be falling in that category - and, I believe, the salesman's time. If your pre-sales budget is too low, then you end up in a death spiral - no one wants to pay to try your services or merchandise, no one buys your services or merchandise, profits shrink, even less pre-sales budget.
In all 4 firms I help start the pre-sales was HEFTY - answering an RFQ is a very expensive proposition, and you run the risk of not only missing the cut but having your proposal be used by the company that let out the RFQ as a baseline for the contract winner! We're not talking chump change - easily 10% of the anticipated contract award profits goes into just answering the RFQ - If I expect to clear 100K after expenses then I better invest 10K worth of time & effort answering the RFQ (which means I would be looking at RFQs with a gross value of 1Mil - that's just a simple rule of thumb that more or less works to see if I would even think about bidding).
The markup on reeds, grease, metronomes, etc. (consumable supplies) & impulse goods (mouthpieces, barrels, music) and lessons (rental) is pretty good - that's where you try & make up the money. The instrument is just the beginning.
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Author: Tom W
Date: 2006-04-25 15:14
Off Topic??? I have never bought anything from Muncey's but do realize that they have an excellent reputation. I have no doubt that Phil or other shop owners can pick out the best clarinets out of his/their stock. Seriously, where do the lesser ones go? Do they sit in the shop forever? Do they get sent out 3 at a time for home trials? Do they go back to the mfr? Do they become rentals? If a shop owner isn't able to return the weeded out (bad intonation for example) clarinets back to the mfr then eventually the leftovers that customers paid $30 to avoid are eventually being offered to another customer that is spending another $30 for the shop owners best pick of the leftovers.
I could accept a sterilization fee but a selection fee...not sure...
I think I would rather see the price added to the product and take the free advice for what it's worth unless of course the store's inventory is hand selected. Then I'd be willing to pay WAY more than $30.
Tom W
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-25 15:24
hi!
i presume the 14 day trial is free?
can you ask that he doesn't listen while you try the instruments, and therefore not pay the fee?
sounds a bit cheeky! many players like to try instruments on the off chance they find something really special....
also, people commented that it might limit the amount of time people play the instruments and prevent them being overplayed..... why does it matter how much an instrument has been played (within reason - but i guess if it gets played that much and still no one buys it then it isn't worth buying)? it is good if they have been played in a bit surely.....
charlie
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-25 15:24
Mark,
what does the term "impulse good" mean when applied to mouthpieces, barrels and music?
seems to me, at the very least, a mouthpiece is as necessary as the instrument itself, unless the stock mouthpiece is satisfactory. And sheet music is an essential commodity, without which we cannot exist (although libraries and illegal copying are other alternatives).
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Author: BornAgainClarinetist
Date: 2006-04-25 15:30
Shame on most of you are painting phil muncy and his shop like they are bunch money grubbing jerks.
Phil and everyone he works with are among the more honest and kind people in their field. You won't be treated with genuine interest and respect anywhere else.
If Phil would like to charge 30 dollars an hour for trying clarinets than by all means. I know people who go and try clarinets for kicks and phil's clarinets are selected to be of quality, they are just out of the box like woodwind and brasswind.
In any sort of business you get what you pay for. Want cheap prices? go to that shady dealer that will just throw the out of adjustment clarinet in your face. Or go to dunkin donuts where you are going to be treated rudely rather than that more expensive starbucks where you get treated with kindess.
I will not stand to hear Muncy Winds be trashed by anyone. I mean who the heck do you think you are?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-25 15:37
larryb wrote:
> what does the term "impulse good" mean when applied to
> mouthpieces, barrels and music?
From my observations at places like ClarinetFest:
Many people go out looking for a clarinet, but end up buying mouthpieces, barrels, bells, and music because they hadn't really thought about it very much beforehand - thus I label it an "impulse buy". You can label it anything you want, though.
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-04-25 15:51
born again clarinettist,
i am not saying anything against muncy at all... i really don't know who he is!! but i don't know if the fee is for trying the clarinets and adjustment etc... i think it is for listening to you play....
i also don't know what is wrong with trying clarinets "for kicks".. how else do you know how your instrument rates against what else is available.....
charlie
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-04-25 15:57
Interesting discussion.
My family went to a photography studio to take some family portraits, the whole thing took about 45 minutes and about 10 shots were taken. We ended up buying 3 portraits PLUS paying the seating fee. This fee ($20) is payable regardless if we buy any or none of the photo shots.
This fee is to cover their time and material (probably minimum because it's done on digital camera) cost, but the main purpose is to weed out those casual customer without any intention to purchase.
Should we blame the photographer for wanting to run a respectable business?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-25 16:15
BornAgainClarinetist wrote:
> I will not stand to hear Muncy Winds be trashed by anyone. I
> mean who the heck do you think you are?
Please understand that almost everyone else is having an rational discussion of a business practice of a well respected vendor. It is not "trash talk" whatsoever.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-25 16:39
Wow, what a can of worms! Not directly on topic but related to getting advice and trying out instruments. To address just one issue with some of my own experience - it would be trying out instruments at shows. After reading this you may decide that it is worth your time and effort to use this approach or it may be more hassle than you are willing to do!
If the appropriate show is not close you have to figure your cost of going to the show - or not - in your instrument cost.
IMO it is best, if possible, to narrow your potential choices of clarinet brands and models beforehand because it is easy to get confused between brands and models and particular examples within each - sort of like looking at too many wall paper books to choose one design of wallpaper.
The quality and set up of instruments may vary with the focus of the show and usually, but not always, the better instruments and preparation go into instruments that come to "focus" shows - in the case of clarinets it is the Oklahoma Clarinet Symposium, ClarinetFest, or some regional "Clarinet Day" types. IME clarinet choices and quality are less at state or local music educator's shows (possible exception - Texas Music Educator's Association Convention).
Do not depend on vendors to give you a bunch of help or commentary. Usually multi-product vendors are too busy to spend more than a few minutes with you because they have to tend to other customer sales. If you want more of this "free" service go during recognized slow periods and miss the "featured" recital in favor of trying instruments. Manufacturer's sales persons may not give you an objective viewpoint.
There may be better pricing because of competition among vendors for the available customers for particular popular models or brands but not always because of market availability and inventory issues. Financing and payment plans if you do not buy the instrument outright may not be available for special show pricing - check this out first. There may or may not be a cash discount or an added fee for using a credit card by the vendor.
You can choose an instrument at a manufacturer's booth but must go to a licensed vendor at the show for that brand - pre shop prices for the model and brand that you are interested in among licensed dealers at the show to find the best price available. Do not forget about sales tax because vendors must charge the local going sales tax in the show venue to the customer. There may be some illegal work arounds here but I won't spell them out and many vendors will not participate.
The better clarinets and true "gems" get snapped up quickly by knowledgeable players.
Acoustics on the show floor are usually terrible because of ambient crowd noise, acoustics of the room, and other clarinet players trying out or just test driving clarinets. If possible use a try out room if provided by the vendor or manufacturer, try a request to take the instrument to your own hotel room or a more quiet service corridor in the back of the show somewhere.
Prepare a try out regimen well thought out before hand to test various factors including intonation (bring a tuner), scale, resistance, tone, etc. etc., bring your favorite mouthpiece and a good reed. IMO it is reasonable, in fact excellent idea, to bring your teacher, and/or a professional player who has a trusted opinion with you during try out. I would offer to pay them for their time and effort in your behalf too!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2006-04-25 18:49
Thanks for all that advice, Omar. I'm actually getting ready to attend the OU Symposium to begin my search for my new Bb clarinet. I have the sweetest father who wants to buy my clarinet for me so we are going together. I haven't bought a new clarinet since 1974 when my R13 was selected for me by the Luyben's and my private teacher. It cost $450 at that time!!
I, too, am wondering if the $30/ hr fee applies to symposiums such as this. Good question. I know Muncy will be a vendor there and had his clarinets recommended to me to try. I was planning to play some of his clarinets until I read this thread. Hmmm. Anyone know? I wouldn't think it would apply in that type of setting but you never know.
I've never been to OU and am wondering if there are places to go play and really hear the clarinet's different colors and intonation without too much interference.
Thanks, Rebecca
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-25 19:08
Rebecca,
The OU Clarinet Symposium is a lot less "formal" and less crowded than ClarinetFest but the major manufacturers will be there with some very nice instruments, Muncy will be there, Forte' will be there, etc.. At least in the past, the vendors have not charged audition fees. As indicated you probably will not get a lot of coaching and feedback from the vendors because they just do not have the time. The Catlett Performing Arts Center where the exhibits are held would be a great place to try out instruments. David Etheridge, the Professor of Clarinet at OU and event host, will probably be able to steer you to an unused student practice room or empty classroom to have a nice environment to try out clarinets. He is a super nice gentleman. There will be world class clarinet players there as well as many teachers, college and advanced secondary school students, etc. Even some of the "names" are less pressured for performances and are very approachable to talk with and give advice on many subjects - including clarinet.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-04-25 19:12)
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Author: Katherine Handcock
Date: 2006-04-25 19:50
Hi to everyone,
Since I work on the retail side of the counter, I'm finding it very interesting to read this discussion! I think that the differing opinions here probably come from different understandings of what this fee is for. Hopefully, Mr. Muncy can chime in to give us a little more information.
Those who feel that the fee accounts for the cost associated with cleaning/adjusting the instruments, maintaining the trial space, etc. feel that it's justified for all trials. After all, no one wants to play an instrument that's gummed up, non-functional in some way, etc. These expenses happen whenever someone tries instruments, and to be honest, are somewhat independent from whether you purchase--after all, even if you buy one, the others still have to be cleaned.
Those who feel that the fee accounts for Mr. Muncy's time feel that it should be an optional service. After all, if you're comfortable selecting your own instrument, or if you have a teacher or colleague you trust with you, Mr. Muncy's advice is not required. However, if you can't have a second set of ears with you, his advice and his time are very valuable and are deserving of the fee.
In response to the question above regarding what happens to the inferior clarinets, and speaking as both a player and a salesperson, I've rarely seen an instrument that was truly defective. Those that are can be identified fairly easily and sent back to the supplier. In my experience, the clarinet that's stuffy/awkward/thin sounding/etc. for one player and their setup is resonant/comfortable/full sounding/etc. for another. My husband and I, both clarinet players, typically feel very differently about each instrument we try: I love it, he's indifferent; I think it's really weird, he's raving about it!
Finally, back to the original question of the thread: I feel that the costs associated with my time with a customer and with the shop's time in adjustments and cleaning should be covered by the profit inherent in the sale. The sales person in me feels testing leads to buying, and even an "idle" trial by a high school kid who's mostly just dreaming and goofing around can lead to a sale down the road. The player in me feels that I should be able to (within reason) try several different models or different examples, even if a purchase is not likely soon, so that I can get a sense of how different instruments feel for that time when I will be buying.
That said, I would never expect that for a custom piece, like a special mouthpiece facing, without some sort of commitment to buy! Since that's not something a store can order "off the rack", so to speak, I would expect them to require some sort of commitment to purchase before they brought it in for me.
Just my 2 cents!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-25 19:58
It bears mentioning that $30 is about what yard work pays...
Even plumbers charge to show up...
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Author: Pam Muncy
Date: 2006-04-25 20:34
Good Day!
Thank you for the invitation to respond to your discussion.
We do appreciate your interest in our Trial Policy, both instore trials and 14 day approvals by mail. Please find our link below with all the information and more about this and other things provided to our customers.
http://homepage.mac.com/philipmuncy/Menu3.html
We appreciate your Bulletin Board "posters" comments, we value both the possitive and negative criticisms toward our business practices, and agree....this is a different and unique approach to the selection of your new instrument. This trial set up has worked for hundreds of musicians both professional, beginners and all in between for several years now. We are mostly a mailorder set up facility, so remember this is the customers choice and decision to come to Muncy Winds, we just offer the outlet and resources for potential customers.
I have only heard one negative response to our trial policy, and that is the "poster" of this subject. When you first arrive to our shop Phil Muncy does give a wonderful speech on what we have done to the clarinets that you are about to try, gives advise on how to select an instrument, keep in mind we have hundreds of clarinets to go through, so it can become a very tedious process. He gives great advise about how to break in and maintain your new instrument. He also adjusts and tweaks any potential instrument you are considering. This fee is a nominal fee charged to have us pre-select, have the instruments adjusted, and regulated. (you would not believe the condition instruments come to us in) We also do this for our mailorder customers as well! (Service that is truly unbeatable and I know is very hard to find in this industry)
I hope you all will try http://www.muncywinds.com for your next clarinet or accessory purchase, you all seem very passionate about what you do, that is why we are in business today, we are very compassionate to our customers needs and want to be there to help in any way we can. Thanks again for your attention, I am glad so many of you have great opinions, that keeps us all different and unique!
Muncy WInds Music
Life is better with Music
Muncy Winds Music
pam@muncywinds.com
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Author: Fred
Date: 2006-04-25 21:14
BornAgainClarinetist, I wish you would listen to yourself and apply your own standards to your words:
"In any sort of business you get what you pay for. Want cheap prices? go to that shady dealer that will just throw the out of adjustment clarinet in your face. Or go to dunkin donuts where you are going to be treated rudely rather than that more expensive starbucks where you get treated with kindess."
You do not wish for Muncy Winds to be trashed, but you feel justified in trashing every employee of Dunkin Donuts carte blanche? You just did a lot of good DD employees a disservice, and making statements like that does your screen name a disservice as well.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-25 23:22
[ We've now had numerous comments and a response from Muncy Winds. Any further questions about the Muncy policy should be directed to them off-line - GBK ]
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The Clarinet Pages
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