 The Doublers BBoard
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-05 19:32
Hi,
I'm primarily an oboe/english horn player who doubles (or triples) on sax and occasionally clarinet. I have a student model selmer sax which is fine for doubling purposes. I would however like to get a better mouthpiece. A suggestion that I was given was an Otto Link hard rubber 5. I think he suggested a 5 because I'm a doubler and sax isn't my main instrument. He also suggested using LaVoz reeds. Currently I use Vandoren ZZ reeds or Rico Royal. I don't want a heavy reed, I want a reed that will speak easily. I don't need a bright mouthpiece because I'm not playing loud jazz solos, I'm playing in the pit where I need to be for the most part a bit more covered, not so bright sounding. I know obviously that I have to just go out and try some mouthpieces to see what will work best for me and my sax, but does anyone have any suggestions? Do you think it would be best to maybe stick with a 5 or 6 for my purposes? Also not sure the newer Otto Links are quite the same standard as the older ones.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-05 21:22
Be wary of a sax player's advice, he/she only plays jazz!!!
Actually what I mean, is that you don't want a mouthpiece that is too open, it's hard to control, you don't want one too closed, it will hinder the tone. You will have to try a lot of mouthpieces, but let me give you a list of standard mouthpieces, and what I know of them.
Oh yea, I started as a sax player, I play flute, clarinet, and am moving on to double reeds this year. I'm 28 and have had a successful professional career. I perform in pits regularly.
Let me start with my passion: Vandoren mouthpieces (For sax, not clarinet)
From the S5 series, I just picked up a T15. It's fantastic, But I favor more on the bright side of the music. All those swingin' big band overtures and entracts. If you want something a little more subtle, try their T27. It was a little constricting for my personal taste, but maybe that's the sound you like. I'd say it's the most classical of the bunch.
Selmer S-80 is another popular choice. Start at C* and work your way out from there. It's a popular classical player choice.
If you want what I consider the most classical mouthpiece, try a Rousseau Classical size 3R to start. It's quite dark. I didn't like it, but it blends, almost to the point of impossible to hear.
An old standard, but I don't like this company, is Meyer mouthpieces. Try size 5 to start. It used to be the old standard, but I think other companies now make a better product.
Selmer S-90s are becoming popular as well. Start at 170. I'm pretty sure they have a different chamber than the S-80.
I know Otto Links as a Jazz Mouthpiece, but I haven't tried their hard rubber.
Best ligature in my opinion is a Rovner Dark. Cheap and the best sound there is out there. I've tried everything, it's simply the best. I use it on every single reed instrument I have, and I have tried TONS of ligatures.
La Voz is a Good choice. A Jazz reed.
I use Rico brand Hemke reeds 2.5, but as I said, I enjoy a sound more on edge than not.
I personally recommend Rico brand (La Voz is a rico reed), Vandoren reeds seem to be inconsistent. Rico Grand Concert Selects are becoming popular, as well as the Jazz Selects have always been very good.
There's so much info out there, best to try a few things, and come back and say what you like and dislike about what you tried.
If it's any help, I'm doing the same thing right now with oboe. I have 6 different staple types, and will be trying lots of oboes in the upcoming year. Thinking Howarth S5 or XL, or Marigaux.
Good luck in your search
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-01-05 23:18
An Otto Link hard rubber #5 is an excellent choice for show doubling.
Easy emission of sound, good low register control.
You'll almost never see Selmer or Vandoren pieces on tenors in the pit. Both tend to be difficult in the low register, and lack the big round sound you want to produce.
Oboe/EH books are usually Reed 3 or 4, and that means tenor parts that can dip into the bottom end of the horn more often.
Meyers are a no go on tenor. Great on alto though.
As for Links being a Jazz mouthpiece, I use a Link #5 as my primary classical tenor mouthpiece. The tip opening is about .082". There are clips of my classical tenor playing on my website with this very setup.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-05 23:57
Well, direct quote from the Wwbw catalog "Otto Link Hard Rubber Saxophone Mouthpiece: The Otto Link Rubber Mouthpieces produce a full tone with just the right amount of brightness and projection needed for a jazz sound."
That being said, I think your Nessun Dorma was beautiful, and just because it's said to be either a jazz or classical mouthpiece doesn't mean it's not good at the other.
Since we're in the mood for sharing:
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2012-01-06 01:36
I vote for either the Selmer S80 or the new Soloist (if you can find a good one). OR a 5 or 5* hard rubber Link works too. I found a good modern Soloist with an E opening (about .085 in size) that works great. I would go with at least a C** or D. The C* is too close. Just used the Soloist E in the THE WIZARD OF OZ last month. I also use it in a big band I play in. Blends better with the rest of the section. The metal Berg I have is too bright.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-06 02:26
Thanks all for the replies. I just realized I didn't specify alto or tenor sax in my post. I'm playing tenor for this show. My tenor isn't bad, just a bit resistant in the low register, which can be a somewhat common problem for tenors. I do think though that a better mouthpiece would make a difference. Otto Link was actually mentioned because I have low notes on tenor. It was a doubler who plays in a lot of pits who suggested the Otto Link hard rubber mouthpiece. I'm playing Reed 3 for A Chorus Line. I want somewhat of a bright jazz sound, but not too bright. Anyhow, being primarily an oboe player, I know a lot about reeds and staples and that sort of thing, but my education regarding mouthpieces is somewhat lacking. Actually, now that I think of it, I should get a better mouthpiece for my clarinet also. I have my brother's Buffet Crampon clarinet and I really like it, but somehow I misplaced his Pine mouthpiece that he bought especially for this instrument. Can't believe I lost it. I have some trouble with playing smoothly in the upper register. Seems to squeak and I'm not sure why. I noticed a chip on one of the rails, maybe this could be part of the problem. I'm just using a cheap plastic mouthpiece and I really should get a better one. Looks like I'm going to be trying a lot of mouthpieces this weekend. However, maybe through suggestions I can narrow down my search just a little bit.
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-06 02:39
DrewSorensen Music, I can certainly make suggestions regarding oboes and reed paraphanalia (not that you asked, just offering). Howarths are nice oboes. The XL is nice. Have you considered Loree at all? A good used Loree can be a good choice for a doubler. If you can make it to IDRS, it's a great place to try oboes. I would consider a synthetic oboe or top joint if you plan to play in the pit. No cracking issues, which can be a concern when you pick up a cold instrument after playing clarinet or whatever for the past half hour. They have come a long way with synthetic materials. Honestly, you can't tell, and even professionals will use a synthetic top joint at times. Believe it or not, Fox has a really good synthetic oboe. I didn't like Fox a few years ago, but recently one of my students bought one and I can't believe how well it plays. Really good intonation, even the forked f is in tune. Actually not a bad choice for a doubler.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-06 02:53
Yes, I do appreciate you're help in choosing an instrument.
I've done a lot of looking at these threads. I will try the regular and ak lorees. I will also try a MCW. I play a greenline clarinet, so I'm familiar with the synthetics. I still haven't made a choice on insert or no insert. I think I'll find the brand that has a good shape for me, and then try that same brand with or without the insert, and see if there's a difference. If there's no or not much of one, I will choose the safety of the insert. I have been staring at these reeds at my desk for over a month now. I was going to order some instruments at the end of November, but Mark Chudnow didn't have an instrument available, and I wanted to order a lot of clarinets all at once, so I could try them all at the same time. I have a pretty important audition tomorrow, but I still think I may have to wait at least another month until I can order some instruments.
In truth, I don't want to be considered a doubler. At the end of the year I hope to be considered an oboe player. I guess what I'm saying is that if I purchase a Fox instrument, I'm afraid that other oboe players will be like, there's the good doubler, but if I purchased a Loree or Howarth or Marigaux some may say there's that good oboe player. I'm in a lucky situation where money isn't a terrible factor, and I hope to have a future on Broadway. Once I get an oboe, I will be spending ungodly hours practicing. I don't know how excited I am about that. 
But maybe you could comment. How do you find the resonance of the oboes like the Howarth or Lorees. High end, Low end, evenness throught the instrument. Any comments on what I may experience during the tryout process would be phenomenal.
Oh, and not to take away from your thread. If you have any more single reed or flute questions, I check the boards often.
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-06 03:33
Drew, (hope Drew is ok) I have a Loree Royal. I really couldn't tell much of a difference between my Royal and the Howarth XL's I tried. They seemed very similar. I was very happy with the intonation and ease of playing with both the Howarth XL's I tried and the Royal I tried. I chose the Royal partly due to the fact that I really liked the feel of the keys and the price was a bit better since it was a slightly used instrument. The royal has a slightly darker, warmer sound than my C series Loree, but still a full, vibrant sound, not dull. Have you heard of Hiniker oboes? I'm on the waiting list for one. Great oboes. Do you make reeds? Laubin oboes are great, but when I try my reeds on a Laubin, they sound dull, not very vibrant. The point is, you have to find an oboe that works well with your style of reed making. Speaking of Laubin, I know that Laubin uses a sleeve. Some claim that it can make a difference in sound, but I'm not so sure. I never had an instrument with a sleeve. Hiniker has been adding a sleeve to some of his exotic wood oboes. But that is another issue. Standard grenadilla or cocobolo or rosewood, plexiglass, etc. Personally, for projection and sound, I like grenadilla. I think however that good grenadilla is getting somewhat scarce and also some companies are not aging the wood properly like they used to. I really like Ludwig Frank oboes and Dupin. I particularly like the Ludwig Frank Brilliant Model. Many people like Marigaux, but I haven't found one I liked. Again, with my reeds, they sounded a bit dull, but I have only tried older ones and only certain models. Like I said, if you can make it to IDRS, this is one of the best places to try a large variety of oboes. I'm not sure where you live, but I believe it's in Columbus Ohio this year.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-06 11:38
Hautboy,
I just went though our posts. I looks like you're trying mouthpieces this weekend. Great! In reference to the Tenor mouthpieces, the list I give you is still worthwhile. I'd take what merlin says into cosideration, but still try all the mouthpieces that you can get your hands on. Mouthpieces are very personal, and there is no right answer.
That being said, a cheap mouthpieces will not make life convenient. I'd suggest an upgrade to the clarinet piece you currently perform on. While it may not be the only problem, when you fix it, the other problems should wash away rather slowly.
Clarinet mouthpieces (and maybe better for the clarinet board, but I'll say what I've found):
I perform on Clark Fobes. He's a great maker, and his pieces are fantastic. I'm playing on his model Cicero 13. I also us his barrels, and I'd suggest getting one to help with pitch (you can get a shorter barrel to tune the instrument up a few hz, especially when it gets cold), The great thing about Fobes is that he has all the info you need on his website.
(Info you may be interested in: Tip Opening, Facing Length. If you'd like me to explain these, I'd be happy to)
Vandoren is popular, but I'm not a fan of their clarinet pieces. "5RV with Lyre" is quite popular.
Pine are very good, sorry you lost yours. Haven't tried them, but heard good things.
I played a Ralph Morgan RM10 for a while (Benny Goodman's mouthpiece). It's a classical mouthpiece, as he was also a good classical player. I think it was a fine piece, but I enjoy short facing mouthpieces for the tamber and tuning. This particular piece was a medium facing and too wide a tip opening.
I'm sure there are other good mouthpieces. I look forward to hearing your results.
A side note, music stored are in general terrible. If you're not familiar with wwbw.com, I order everything from them. You have a 45 day trial on instruments and mouthpieces, and they're in general pleasant to deal with. There's a minor cleaning fee upon return. I did all my mouthpiece trials that way.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-06 11:56
Hautboy, (I reference to the oboe post)
Yes Drew is fine. I think it'd be quite happy with a Royal. Maybe I'll add that to the list. I don't know why I have been shying away from Loree. They have good resale value, and I kinda think they are the american standard. There is a multitude available. I guess they will be on the list. I did have the AK bore on my "in my head" list, but I'll add a C and Royal.
I've been all over the oboe boards, so I've read about Hiniker. I think the waiting list is 8 years or something. I don't know if I have that long. I don't even think I'll be able to wait for the oboe convention. In July I hope to be personally recording good sounding oboe. Well, maybe Laubin is the one with 8 years waiting list. Either way, I've heard Laubin is more for orchestral playing. I'm pretty sure they border on dampening the sound a bit. Too expensive anyway. I'm surprised you haven't enjoyed a Marigaux. I think that company is the most extreme. Some people love them, some really loathe them. I think they are most prone to cracking issues and inconsistent craftmanship.
I'm making my own reeds. All the way up to reed #14. Self taught, but in general I've always had a nack for reeds on the sax and clarinet. Been lucky about that. My work is on the oboe Bboard, but the post was so long, I'm sure people were too busy. I've studied the Lidet and I own the Weber book. I have currently Cudnow Gold E and S, Pisoni Artist, Stevens #1 and #2, Loree AK. I got shaped cane from Forrests, Mack-Pieffer. Albion company.
If I miss you before you go mouthpiece shopping, good luck!
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-06 12:29
Just a fast note about my Royal before I go to work. It's an ak bore. This has been recommended by my teacher for years. My C series is just a standard bore, but the wood is phenominal and I just can't give it up. Hannah's oboes is a great place to check. There are others of course, but that one comes to mind because I have dealt with her before and I've been happy. Prices seem decent also. I heard the newer Marigaux models are supposed to be nice. Can't remember the number, I think 900 or something. I wouldn't rule out Howarths. Kind of pricey, but nice instruments. There's an American dealer of Howarths but I can't remember her name at the moment. She's very nice and helpful though. I guess the cocobolo instruments are supposed to be nice, but again, quite pricey.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-06 13:28
This conversation could very well confirm a choice in the AK bore for me. I cannot wait to try some oboes! (I don't know how many times that statement has been said in history). What mandrel do you use for the AK staples? I don't want to bend them, but I'm pretty sure my MCW mandrel does not fit the AK staples fully. (I can't check because I have reeds on them right now). Same thing happened to my Stephens #1, but I don't like them. Too dull (although I've never tried them on a instrument, I just can't get a good 3 crow out of them no matter what I do)
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-01-06 16:13
Drew: Well, direct quote from the Wwbw catalog "Otto Link Hard Rubber Saxophone Mouthpiece: The Otto Link Rubber Mouthpieces produce a full tone with just the right amount of brightness and projection needed for a jazz sound."
Otto Link pieces have far more in common with the old barrel chamber type of mouthpieces than Selmer or Vandoren mouthpieces. Big chambers tend to favour the easy production of fundamental and lower partial in the saxophone tone. IOW, what is referred to in the common parlance as a "dark" sound.
In my experience, one of the keys to success in doubling is having an instrument and setup that respond readily. Good response, appropriate tone quality and good intonation generally go hand in hand.
In my mind there s no such thing as a jazz mouthpiece or reed. There are only tools that facilitate desired tone quality.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-06 16:53
Yes Merlin, I agreed with you in the above post. And I said also that I'm unfamiliar with these pieces, but that was just my opinion of the maker's aim. I then went on to say that hautboy should take your and his friends advice and try the mouthpiece. I'm sure it's a good one if two people like it.
I think you have a lovely sound on your setup, and I agree a "Jazz" mouthpiece doesn't exist. There's so many forms of Jazz, how could it. There's so many mouthpiece choices out there, and no one right answer, so just trying to give the "usual" (if there is such a thing) choices I'm familiar with.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-03-03 05:22
Just a note about tenor mouthpieces. I own a bunch of them but the one I find the best sounding, easiest to play, and having a wide dynamic range is an old refaced Berg Larson 120/0 sms metal mouthpiece, good for all kinds of music from baroque trio sonatas to rock. I even own a "holy grail" double ring Link but do not use it. However, many of the Bergs had and still have facings that are not optimum for good performance. Selmer, of course, still makes good mouthpieces, especially for section work. Air is needed for playing the tenor.
Having made thousands of oboe reeds over several decades, I like to play my 2005 AK Loree a lot. Loree's oboes, like Buffet's R13 clarinets, have evolved over the years. Perhaps a visit to Peter Hurd's website would help in picking out oboes as he knows a lot about the various makes. Good luck!
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2012-03-08 03:40
I'm an oboe player who doubles on sax and clarinet. It's not cheap, but I love my Lomax New York Jazz mouthpiece. The tone is great -- a nice mixture of dark and bright. It works well with a standard cut Legere reed and it's sharp enough that even when I have to pick up a cold Tenor sax I can still play up to pitch. My Tenor is a Yamaha Custom Z.
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