 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: hautbois92
Date: 2007-06-27 06:17
Hello!
Does anyone, using the Jeanné gouging, could give me a comment on it?
Thank you
Hautbois92
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-27 07:05
I've used one.
Not a bad machine. A double radius gouge, so you need to know a bit more about adjusting it and doing what you want to do with it. I mentioned on another thread a good website to learn about gouging machines and such is Larry Mueller's Oboist's Workshop .
Looking at the picture to refresh my memory, I don't spot a screw to adjust the placement of the blade on the carriage that other machines have. Every machine I've used has a screw on both sides of the carriage to help center the blade with the carriage. There does appear to be a hole however, so perhaps she left it off to show more of the machine.
If you want an easier machine to work with, try the Opus 1 machine. It's very easy to adjust, and keep perfectly adjusted (unlike most double radius machines) and Robin Driscoll is a super nice guy.
Impressive website. Just a note: Jeanne makes an American-Style setup of a machine and the curve of the blade might not work out for a French Style sound.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2007-06-27 07:08)
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-27 13:08
There are two screws on each side of the blade for adjusting its position side-to-side, just like on the Graf machine; however, the screw that pushes the blade away from the bearing rod comes up from the bottom of the carriage. I don't know how the motion is transferred from vertical to horizontal, I haven't taken it apart to find out.
There are some nice things about it:
1. It uses linear ball bearings between the carriage and the guide bar, this virtually eliminates the wear at that location that happens on Graf machines.
2. There is a lot of adjustability - including an eccentric bearing in the carriage (like the Graf) and another on one end of the bearing rod.
And some not so good things:
1. the machining of the parallel bars looks a little sloppy on some of the examples I've seen. On my english horn gouger, there is a small gap between the bar and the base on the left side. I've seen the same thing on another Jeanne english horn gouger.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-27 13:48
"On my english horn gouger, there is a small gap between the bar and the base on the left side."
What kind of gap? I'm a little bit confused. Can you take a picture and email it to me? I'm very curious.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-27 14:56
It's a very small gap caused by the fact that the bottom edge of the sliding bar is not perfectly straight. There is a slight curve near one end so that the bottom edge of the bar curves up from the base, leaving a small gap between the bar and the base. At that end of the bar, you could easily slide a piece of paper between the bar and the base. None of my Graf machines is like this, but I've seen the same thing on another Jeanne machine.
I'll try to take a picture but I may not get to it this week.
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Author: doublereeder2
Date: 2007-06-28 04:48
Wrowand - did you see a bad bar on one of mine? :-) It is there.
I have 2 and like the action of both. I also like the blades Valerie made for me.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-28 05:07
Although the defect doesn't sound "serious", the implications of it are. Does this mean the brass base is finished and surfaced improperly and not on a level surface? Or does it mean your sliding bars are not even, and thus have a bit of slack or give as you gouge? In either case, the implication could be that since it's not perfectly parallel, something else isn't parallel to it, such as the bar or the bed, thus not creating an even gouge. Not that this can't be compensated for, but one would hope a new machine wouldn't have such defects.
Even if you put a piece of paper under it, if there was any give to it, it could really mess up dimensions.
I am taking an interest in the Jeanne machine because I'm looking for a double radius EH gouging machine, and the Jeanne was one of the machines I was considering.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-28 05:20
Sorry to harass you wrowand. You said there's another eccentric bearing on the bearing rod? Can you explain this a little? I've never heard of this.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-28 06:24
doublereeder2, No it wasn't your machine. It was one that David was working on for someone; I don't know who. Do you have a Jeanne e-horn gouger too?
I'm pretty happy with mine. Much happier since I did some work on the blade. I just think there's no reason why the those things shouldn't be completely straight.
cjwright, The eccentric bearing on one end of the bearing rod can be used to raise or lower that end of the rod. Changes there will result in changes in the relative height of the sides of the carriage (and the guide) above the bed. For example if the guide is too low in front (i.e., at the front side of the blade) and the back side of the guide is too high, this can be adjusted with that eccentric bearing. Ideally, the guide should touch the cane just in front of the blade to minimize rubbing of the cane.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-28 07:07
Yes, my question is if there's an eccentric bearing on one end of the bearing rod, doesn't that make it gouge at an angle, so that one side is higher, and the other isn't?
Just to clarify terminology:
Parallels = Located on the side of the Used to adjust the height of where the circular bearing from the carriage touches. Adjusts thickness.
Bar = Round cylindric bar on which the carriage slides along.
Bearing Rod = bar?
or is the Bearing rod the metal tube inside the carriage? But i thought this is the first eccentric bearing you mentioned when you mentioned it is "like the Graf"? How do you adjust this second eccentric bearing?
You're certainly peaking my interest!
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-28 12:11
Bearing Rod = Bar
The eccentric bearing that is present on both the Graf machine and the Jeanne is a sleeve inside the carriage.
The eccentric on one end (the right side if you're facing the machine) of the bearing rod (bar) is not present on a Graf machine. To accomplish the same adjustment on a Graf would require either shimming or filing the bottom of one of the posts that holds the bar.
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Author: coguy5280
Date: 2007-06-29 13:42
I was searching the web for Robin Driscoll's Opus One site, and I stumbled upon this bboard and this particular subject. I feel compelled to write in because it's very appropriate to me today: I'm flying to San Antonio to have Mark Ackerman work on one of my Jeanne machines that has never produced a useable result for me. I bought two of her machines, one almost three years ago and one almost two years ago, in an effort to get away from the center-set gouges on the market (i.e., Gilbert, Ross) and, to this day, I am still trying to get both of them to work well (reading between the lines, I'm pretty certain that the post about the Jeanne machine with "David [Matthews] in Dallas" is my other one).
My experience has been the following: upon receipt, both machines produced reeds with excellent tones that are indicative of the beautiful darkness and roundness of the Mack/Cleveland school, which is what I was looking for. Using a narrow shape, I liked the tone achieved from the curve of the gouger blade. The flip side, however, is that, while the reeds sounded terrific, they didn't function properly. By properly I mean that they didn't vibrate at all (it felt like every reed had a strong clamp on the vibrations) and, in addition, they were flat in pitch. As a result, there was nothing that could be done scraping-wise to make the reeds function better: if you scraped off more cane to attempt better vibration overall, the reed went even flatter in pitch than it already was; if you clipped it to raise the pitch to a stable level, then it didn't respond at all. Both machines I received gave this result.
When I called with the first machine to ask why I was getting this result, I was basically told I didn't know anything and that I needed to try different shapes and cane to make it work. I was also told to move the bed around to get a different result. I bought her shape and used different diameters of cane, being careful to select pieces that were both flat on the bottom and straight on the sides. I still didn't get reeds that worked. I tried moving the bed by following the instructions included with the machine and messed it up. When I had the machine looked at by two different gouger experts, their reaction was the same as what wrowand has posted (at least, regarding my particular machine): some nice design elements (ball-bearing carriage) but also sloppy craftmanship: both the parallel bars and the base were not true (i.e., flat and level). While the bars had had shims put underneath them, they weren't glued or adhered strongly, so they fell out when the bars were moved.
In trying to learn more about gouging machines in general, I've asked colleagues and friends about their experiences with this machine and other machines. Surprisingly (or not?), I've found at least three have had carbon-copy experiences to me with the Jeanne: gouges which yield darkly-toned reeds but are unuseable in a functional sense since they're both flat and don't vibrate. I recently talked to a relatively new Principal Oboist in a North American symphony orchestra [not Atlanta's Elizabeth Koch] about the Ferrillo gouger/seminar, and, when I asked her if she'd used the Jeanne machine at all, she said what I've already relayed: she loved the sound but neither of her two machines produced useable reeds in a vibrating sense. She had sent at least one of them off to have someone else try to make them work, but she is currently not using either one.
Of course, to temper this, I offer the following: while I currently hold a performing position in an orchestra and have thankfully won five auditions, I am not at all, and probably never will be, a gouging expert; my brain just isn't wired that way. I'm certain that part of the problem I had with this machine initially was the fact that it was my first use of a Graf-style machine (many moveable parts that need understanding and knowledge about their function/use). Other posters to this bboard, such as wrowand, doublereeder2, and cjwright, have been able to use their machines just fine (btw, cjwright's comment about French and American bladecurves is a good one for you to consider since you're not in the US).
Thanks for reading, and I wish you the best if you decide to try this machine. It hasn't been a good experience for me personally, but I'm merely one of many who've purchased/used this machine and it may just be the perfect choice for you. I'm hoping that Mark Ackerman will be able to get my machine functioning well so I can post an addendum about how much I love my Jeanne machine.
Post Edited (2007-06-29 14:09)
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-29 14:46
I always get a kick as to how non-doublereeders just have no clue just how much of an additional skill set is required to bear the double burden of playing a comparatively difficult instrument AND having to be a master artsandcrafts-person on top of that, not to mention being at the mercy of the temperamental little *@#$'ers (reeds, that is)!!
Now, I shape but don't gouge my own cane. Just reading this thread makes me realize that there is yet another mountain to climb out there, bearings, rods, blades and all! Ok, let's admit it, many of us LIKE the additional challenge of reedmaking...separates the adults from the kiddies?...provides a barrier to entry?...or, maybe we're just a bit masochistic? Or maybe we were just bait and switched into this, after some canniving band director persuaded us to abandon the clarinet for that funny looking thin one in the corner?
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-29 14:52
coguy5280, I wondered if that was your e-horn gouger when I saw it but I didn't ask who it belonged to. I'm currently able to make decent reeds with my Jeanne e-horn gouger but I've had to do a lot of work on the blade to get reeds that will both vibrate and play up to pitch. Good luck with yours, I hope you get something that's useable.
I don't understand why it's so hard to get some machines to produce good reeds. It seems like with enough adjustability (both in the mechanism and by judicious use of a file) that almost any of them could be made to work. I know it doesn't really work that way, but I don't know why.
For oboe, I had been using my Inoledy gouger for a few months because none of my Graf and Graf-like machines were working, but I was finding was that it was hard to make reeds that were up-to-pitch in the high register and yet responsive enough that I could make secure entrances in the low register. I finally set aside the time to get one of my Graf machines working and have been very happy with reeds for the past few weeks. It really goes to show how important the gouge is.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-29 15:23
I definetely understand wrowand and the frustration of trying to knock gouging machines into adjustment. I have three currently, and after about a month and a half worth of work, and having made probably close to 300 reeds during that time, I can say that all three are finally in proper adjustment of what I want. The only way one can get machines in adjustment is simply by trial and error, small adjustment and make another reed to test.
"It seems like with enough adjustability (both in the mechanism and by judicious use of a file) that almost any of them could be made to work. "
I would agree with this statement, but I think it's really difficult to learn all of this if one has not had proper instruction from a well-seasoned repairman on exactly how to adjust the curve of a blade, what the guide in relation to the blade should do and how it should rub, when to file the guide (and you can only file it so much before you screw up the machine completely!) and when you know "this is as good as it's going to get", and even what a good blade curve looks like. It's so minute, and not even visible to the naked eye, that unless you have one of those amazing laser thingies that zap your blade to exact proportions, you have to just guess and check. Even regrinding the blade curve without a grinding wheel is difficult, because you often accidentally turn the end of the blade slightly up, thus making you push down harder in order to get the blade to catch the cane.
I really wish you the best of luck coguy. If you can't fix it, I'd strongly suggest sending a machine over to Mr. Weber. He works wonders with gouging machines.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-07-01 06:31
A Letter from Valarie (Jeanne)
Thank you for your interest in our gouging machine. Besides the ball bearings and the eccentric adjustments that you mentioned, one of the most important aspects of the machine is the guide on the carriage. It is machined with a slight incline away from the blade so that the guide is touching the cane only in front of the blade. It also wraps around the blade fairly closely. These two aspects of the design allow you gouge with a small amount of blade showing. On some other machines there is a wide gap between the blade and the guide which can cause the cane to rip on the sides as you try to move the blade off center.
As for the parallel bars, on some of the earlier machines there was a small gap between the end of the lower bar and the base. In my opinion, this did not jeopardize the consistent measurement of the gouge. In recent machines we have been able to minimize this space. The most critical aspect of the parallel bars is that the top edge of the upper bar be ground flat.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2007-07-01 06:58)
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2007-07-03 03:48
Actually, Robin's website doesn't seem to be working at this point. Can anyone provide me with Robin's email? I have one of his Opus1 Machines and I need the blade sharpened -- just need to get in contact with him.
BTW -- the machine is fantastic and super easy to adjust. Great machine...I highly recommend them.
Shawn
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Author: coguy5280
Date: 2008-07-08 02:06
So, here it is one year after I originally posted that I was having work done on my two Jeanne English horn gouging machines, and I'm re-posting to give the results of those efforts.
I just had both of them worked on yet again, and, while one is reportedly up and running with what will hopefully yield cane that is (finally) gouging evenly, the other one is being demoted to a pregouger (at the suggestion of my repairer) because (surprise, surprise) the machining on it is flawed. This is now the second competent gouger repair-person who has said the machine can't be fixed adequately because of the way it was machined. Specifically, the bed isn't straight within itself, so no amount of shimming or aligning will apparently fix it completely. My repairer, who has set-up gouges for oboists and/or English hornists in the full-time professional orchestras of Los Angeles, Boston, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Toronto, and Dallas (just to name a few), suggested not trying to re-sell it because, while it now gouges perfectly straight and level for most of the cane, the last bit on one side can't be made right due to the inaccurate machining of the bed (he used the term "run-out" to describe the machining problem within the bed).
Frankly, I'd love to call Valarie Anderson and demand my money back (but then I'd have to talk to her, so forget it). It's only been three years since I bought the stupid thing and I haven't made one reed off it that works well; surely I'll still get a refund (which I called and asked her for after a mere one month of not being able to make useable reeds; she told me I could send it back, but I'd have to pay her a "restocking fee," which, when I pressed her for more information about that, is really a fee to cover her costs, plus a very sizeable markup according to my math, to the credit card company: the company fee was about $13, but she was going to charge me a percentage totaling $80; this is the time to re-read the part about how the gouge didn't work to begin with).
I'll settle for giving her glowing PR, instead; after all, I'm now getting a Jeanne pregouger for the price of tens of hundreds of dollars. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
Bottom line: last year when I posted on here I was trying to be sweet and nice and tactful about all the problems I've had with Madame Jeanne's blessed machines because I didn't want to offend anyone who might actually have a Jeanne machine that works (predictably, I've recently talked to yet another friend, who holds a Principal chair in an ICSOM orchestra and who bought a gouge from her in the past: the machine made nothing but flat and stiff reeds; he refers to it as his "gouger paperweight"). Now, however, after hundreds of dollars of repair work/shipping costs/airline tickets, not to mention countless hours of aggravation and frustration, I can, and will as frequently as possible, utter the following mantra with no hesitation or guilt whatsoever:
STAY AWAY FROM JEANNE
P.S. If Madame Jeanne reads this and wants to (laughably) sue me for slander or some other bogus reason, then I'll just turn around and sue her for taking $900 of my money and giving me a piece of junk because I now have bonified evidence from a respected and qualified gouging person (see aforementioned orchestra list) that one of my gougers was machined inaccurately (so much for your arrogant insinuations that I don't know how to make reeds, eh, Valarie?)
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-07-14 15:39
So does anyone have a recommendation for a good well machined english horn gouger that uses a graf-like blade?
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-07-14 20:33
I guess. A graf can work pretty well, until the bar starts wearing down the inside of carriage and makes it wobbly. That's one of the (only) things that's nice about the Jeanne is the ball bearing that prevents wear between the bar and the carriage.
If you want an improved Graf, I guess the Ferillo machine fits the bill. At least it shouldn't wear out as quickly.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2008-07-14 22:05
That's interesting that Graf wears down. I have had mine for 30 years without any noticeable wear (except the blade has been sharpened). Mine is brass, and maybe that makes the difference?
Elizabeth
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2008-07-15 03:44
I don't gouge my own cane, but as a technical sort of person, I enjoy reading about the various gouging machines available. But it is hard for me to keep track of all the different sorts and manufacturers. I thought a Wikipedia article on gouging machines would be most helpful--but it doesn't seem that there is one! I'm sure you all have plenty else to do, but if the collective expertise of this board found its way into a nice Wikipedia page I'm sure the online oboe world would be grateful....
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-15 04:31
Mine is brass too, but my bearings are starting to wear down too. It's not the brass that wears down, but the ball bearings inside of the brass carriage which can be removed with the eccentric bearing. This is why Mack would always gouge with the bar facing outward; so he would consistently push the carriage out as he slid it along the rod as well.
Robert M. Turner in Alabama (?) can fix them, but he drills out the whole eccentric bearing and puts in normal bearings. He makes graf machines that David Weber assembles and sells.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-07-15 12:18
Hmm... There are no ball bearings in the Graf machine. That's the problem. The bar is very rough (as delivered from Graf) and it wears the inside of the brass "sleeve" of the carriage. That's why you get that black sludge that collects on the bar; it's tiny brass filings in oil. Ball bearings would practically eliminate the wear, but the graf doesn't have them.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-15 14:51
When I take out my brass sleeve and open it up, there are ball bearings in it. I don't know how yours is designed, but that's how mine is.
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Author: borris
Date: 2008-07-15 17:55
I use some automotive stuff (like "Prolong") combined with a conventional oil to prevent wearing. I have an old Russian-made machine (over 20 years) and RDG one (6 years) with no sign of wear so far (knocking on wood, LOL)
Post Edited (2008-07-16 18:23)
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-07-15 18:19
cjwright:
If it has ball bearings, either it's not really a Graf machine (that is, it wasn't made by Robert Graf), or they've been added after Graf made it. In anycase, I'd like to see pictures of it if you have some.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-15 19:15
I'll take pictures the next time I yank it. Right now, my gouge is set up JUST right and you know what a pain it is to get your machine "just right" again.
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Author: coguy5280
Date: 2008-08-02 18:09
In response to wrowand's question about who makes a decent Graf-style EH gouge:
John Ferrillo is coming out with his version of an EH gouger imminently (the machine's been made; it just has to be set-up). It's going to be astronomically expensive (I've heard in excess of $2000), but it, judging from the same craftmanship of his oboe machines, will be light-years better than the Jeanne (who, within the span of just two years, upped her price for a new EH machine by $200). While 2K is a lot of money for a Ferrillo gouger, I've spent that amount in simply trying to get my Jeannes to work correctly. Might as well spend more up-front to get something that is made extremely well.
A few more tidbits about Madame Jeanne's stellar products:
I bought a guillotine from her back when I bought the gouges. It perpetually causes the cane to crack, even after I pare down the cane and make it thinner for the guillotine blade. I also had the blade reshaped to (hopefully) correct this problem, but so far, it still cracks cane. I know it's her guillotine that's the problem because the cane never cracks when I use the guillotines mounted on my other machines.
A colleague of mine bought a Jeanne shaper handle. Within a short time of having it, the screw-threads stripped (so the tip couldn't be held firmly in the handle). When my friend called the Madame and let her know of the problem with the recent purchase, she was given the arrogant retort, "That's impossible." So, just like my experience with Jeanne gougers, my friend had to pay money to someone else to fix the less-than-adequate craftmanship of the Jeanne product. She has learned and sings the same refrain as me:
STAY AWAY FROM JEANNE
Post Edited (2008-08-02 21:50)
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