 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2023-01-03 19:28
I was surprised to find that my oboe does not trill on some of the trill fingerings provided in the chart I have. (Schuring again.) Apparently these fingerings are for Lorees only, and I have a Rigoutat. I found an online chart with multiple alternate trill fingerings, and did find ones that work. I did not know that different makers of oboes had different mechanisms. I'm perfectly happy with my Rigoutat, which is a fine example of the Expression, was a bargain when I bought it, and has the best forked F of any oboe I've ever played. It also works better for my small hands than a Loree, even though the difference in reach is minor.
That said, some of the trills have one note rather drastically out of tune, and I can't get both notes in tune at the same time; is this common? Is it a problem with me, or is it just the way it is? I can see doing a "turn" with the trill note off key, but a whole trill, um, would rather not.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2023-01-03 20:55
Can you specify which trills are the worst? Maybe somebody has some suggestions.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-04 02:54
If the trill fingerings are massively out of tune, then you would need to have it checked and altered to make them better. Regardless if it's a pro level Loree, Rigoutat, Howarth, Marigaux, etc., the trill fingerings should apply across the board as they're all Gillet conservatoire models which was the system first introduced by Loree in the early 1900s and has become the universal standard (except for some regions like Austria). Each maker may have their own slight differences when it comes to the tunings of certain notes and trills and some makes may work better than others.
For most part, the trill fingerings aren't always spot on in tune compared to the standard fingering for the trilled note - eg. if you play an Ab-Bb trill, the Bb may not be dead in tune with the standard Bb fingering because of how it's produced.
Most of the trills using the perforated fingerplates on the main action (D#-E, G#-A, Ab-Bb) are creating the upper note of the trill by diminishing the ventings to bring that note down to pitch, so that's going to create some problems in itself in terms of the tone quality and tuning of the upper note. If the upper note is sharp, the perforartions can be filled in with beeswax to bring the upper note down to pitch (and the tone quality will suffer) and if the upper note is flat, the aperture can be enlarged and that involves removing metal which s best done by a specialist.
Mid stave B-C#, C-C#/Db and C-D trills involve the trill keys and fairly often the C-C#/Db may be on the sharp side as the lower trill tonehole has to serve two trills. If the C-D trill is sharp or flat, then the upper trill tonehole needs addressing. Upper Eb-F often has the F being on the sharp side as the Eb key is held down (played as Eb with the 1st 8ve key and trilling RH finger 2 for the forked F - 8ve1 xxx|x+xEb). The trills that shouldn't be a problem are low B-C# and then C#/Db-D#/Eb, F#-G# and Bb-C and any other simple trill in both lower and upper registers.
Let us know what trills and trill fingerings you're using and are having trouble with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2023-01-04 03:17
Thanks. I'll get back after I've had some time to go through most of them and list which ones I find problematic. I don't know of anyone within driving distance who can do those kinds of modifications on an oboe and likely will just live with them given the level I'll be playing, but perhaps there will be helpful input anyway.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-04 03:56
If the upper trill notes for an Ab-Bb, G#-A or D#-E trill are sharp, that's something you can adjust yourself to flatten them using wax or Blu-Tack to fill in the upper portion of the aperture in the relevant fingerplate (applied, adjusted and shaped with a smooth metal rod or a wooden cocktail stick) and can easily be reversed with no lasting effect on the instrument. Apply the filler to resemble a crescent moon (thicker at the top edge and thinning down at the sides) and make the new aperture as circular as possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2023-01-04 05:32
Thanks. I understand the concept but am unlikely to try to do it myself. If I had an "oboe tech school" nearby I'd go to it though.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2023-01-04 07:23
The reason I asked is because no oboe ever made has all of its trills in tune. It just does not exist and never has.
Many of the trills can be made better by extra support. I have found that students who come from string instruments often do not understand how proper support feels, much less "extra" support.
Blowing harder and generating higher support pressure many times makes the dissonance note more in tune and clears up the often fuzzy sound.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-01-04 17:26
Just to add an extra trill fingering which I haven't seen in any charts, this is the upper register A#-B (or Bb-B or Bb-Cb) trill I like to use (+ denotes the trilling finger/fingers):
Conservatoire/dual* system: 8ve2 xxo|x+o
* if you primarily use conservatoire fingerings
Thumbplate/dual** system: 8ve2, thumb off thumbplate xxo|++o
** if you primarily use thumbplate fingerings
You will need more support for this trill, especially for the B/Cb as that note is a 3rd harmonic of low E and has a tad more resistance than the standard short fingering of B natural (8ve2 xoo|ooo on all the above systems).
It's a shame it doesn't work in the lower register as I find the whole having to hold the spatula key down to keep the top joint C key closed and trilling with LH2 a pain, compared to flutes, clarinets and saxes where it's one of the easiest trills - xoo|+oo although it's a slightly passable lower register D#-E trill on clarinets as the long fingering for the D#/Eb is too sharp on them. It's one of those trills on oboe you have to think about rather than just do instinctively, especially if you've come to oboe from a Boehm system based woodwind instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-01-05 17:32)
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2023-01-04 20:22
I use the Conservatoire system, and the fingering I was taught for Bb/B trill was x+o|xoo and slide LH1 to cover the spatula key that holds down the C vent (works in both octaves).
I subsequently discovered this fingering that is easier and more in tune:
x+o|xoo holding down G# key (works in both octaves, but only if instrument is equipped with extension lever that holds down LH2).
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2023-01-05 06:57
Thanks. I'm a competent horn and tuba player and fully understand air support. (And one of the things I like about brass is you can blow those little strings right off their chairs ....)
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Author: mberkowski
Date: 2023-01-15 19:28
> I subsequently discovered this fingering that is easier and
> more in tune:
>
> x+o|xoo holding down G# key (works in both octaves, but only
> if instrument is equipped with extension lever that holds down
> LH2).
For as long as I can remember, I have been using the spatula key trill and its intonation on my current Loree is abysmal. A quarter tone sharp. But last week I was playing some music off my shelf I hadn't touched in 20 years and found this G# key trill fingering penciled in. "well that's wrong" I thought until I tried it and found it in tune.
Michael
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Author: Obreizh
Date: 2023-10-25 18:08
I am confronted with a trill that I never having played before.
Db - E (1+1/2 tone)
(in the middle range)
I try the following... seems not so bad, but it's very "difficult" to lift the right ring-finger for that.
½xx | xxx C#
½xx | xxo C#
Do you have other fingering to suggest ?
I see that Db could also be played this way... but I don't find good possibility of trilling that way
ooo | xoo
or
ooo | xoo Eb
Any idea ?
France / Rennes
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-10-25 18:46
Think of the uppermost note of the tremolo (interval of a minor 3rd or more) or trill (interval of a semitone or a tone) when playing in the upper register and ditch the fingering chart and fly against convention for the fingering of the lower note, provided the lower note fingering you use will speak easily and be in tune as it is the written note on the stave.
For an upper register C#-E tremolo, play the E as a normal upper register E (8ve1 xxx|xxo) and then play the C# using the 1st 8ve key instead of half holing or lifting off LH1 (8ve1 xxx|xxx C#). Trill both RH3 and the C# key together - trust me, it'll work. The trill fingering diagram is 8ve1 xxx|xx+ C#+ (the + denotes the trilling fingers).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2023-10-25 22:14
Chris's solution is the only way I know how to do it with any speed and clarity.
In general, trilling between a half-hole note and a thumb octave note is often highly dependent on the oboe, the reed, and the support, but one of these will sound best:
- Finger the half-hole note and lift/lower right hand fingers only
- Finger the octave note and lift/lower right hand fingers only
- Use both half-hole AND thumb octave and lift/lower right hand fingers only (I have found this to be the best solution on many combinations on many different makes of oboes)
If one of the trilled notes is airy or fuzzy, I often find that blowing harder will clear it up during the trill/tremolo. Of course, that often means that the pitch can be sharp, which necessitates lowering the general pitch, which I normally do by opening the teeth.
The above principle applies also to trills/tremolos between notes that use 1st and 2nd octave keys.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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