 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Graham Salter
Date: 2015-02-26 22:19
Help please. I am trying to get my facts right for a unique, definitive guide about the oboe reed. When US oboists deliberately slip the blades, it is debatable in which direction the thread tensions are actually pulling: probably, since the lower tail of the shaped cane is pulled towards oneself, the upper blades rotate around a fulcrum to display the lower left edge anyway. What I understand is agreed, is that for a Right-hander to slip a reed, the tail of the Upper blade must be offset to the Right.
Question: in which direction way please do Left-handers initially offset the blade? The same, or the opposite? To the Left or the Right? Answers gratefully accepted, but please, no theories based only on speculation. Thank you.
London orchestral oboist, CA/EH, d'amore, bass ob., piccolo musette;
teacher; consultations; master-classes
Contact: MAS: http://maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-02-27 01:24
Left-handed oboist speaking - no speculation involved.
I slip my blades a tiny bit to the left, that is, the narrowed end of the blade facing me lies a tiny bit to the left compared to the other blade.
My reason is that when wrapping I want to discourage further slipping. As the thread bears down on the upper blade it forces the far edge a tiny bit under the near edge of the lower blade. This increases the seal and prevents further slippage. If you slip the blades the other way, wrapping will tend to exacerbate the slip.
In my case, the end result is that the upper blade of a finished reed has a tiny offset to the left, and the blades seal all the way up.
There are previous discussions about slipping the blades. You can search from them with the search option above.
J.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2015-02-27 08:11
I tie left handed, but I still slip the same way as righthanded oboists, because I from right to left in the tie. The main point is you want to slip opposite of the direction of the way you tie so the tension of the thread pulls the blades together, not apart.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: Graham Salter
Date: 2015-02-27 11:29
Thank you both for your kind and immediate answers. I appreciate the help. But you can see already the problem thrown up! I suppose that both of you experts disagree.
J: could you please explain a little more clearly. It is so easy for one to be misunderstood. "As the thread bears *down* on the upper blade it forces the *far edge* a tiny bit under the *near edge of the lower blade*. This increases the seal"...
. . . It seems to me (and I surmise that we agree) that, if one ties "up and over", the thread pulls the upper blade away from you and the lower, towards you. (The edge of the top blade – the right edge if you shift to the right – hides the lower right blade). If I understand it, offsetting the blade as you suggest (which is to the right for right-handers), forces the left edge of the top blade (for right-handers) back into the protection of the visible edge of the lower blade, to run tightly inside the wall, 'parallel', so to speak; the whole blade is swung inwards by the thread, which prevents the tip being forced outwards in a 'scissors' motion. So the L-Hander shifts to the left, and reverses everything. Or have I got you wrong?
Cooper: I suppose a Left-hander will tie from R to L, so long as one is working towards the tip before crossing back. But even though everything is mirrored, does not 'up and over' imply that what J says controls the degree of crossing?
Thank you both again. You may get quoted! or paraphrased, in fairness...
London orchestral oboist, CA/EH, d'amore, bass ob., piccolo musette;
teacher; consultations; master-classes
Contact: MAS: http://maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm
Post Edited (2015-02-27 11:38)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-02-27 12:53
Whoo, Graham. That's a lot of words for a pretty simple thing, but yes. I followed your description and it seems to jibe very well with my wrapping technique.
I do not disagree with Cooper - I have bought reeds from him in the past and I keep old pro reeds as examples, so I have one of Cooper's reeds right here.
Cooper, whatever hand he uses, wraps in the opposite direction to me; He also slips his blades in the opposite direction to me. Looking down on the tip, my thread wraps anti-clockwise, and Cooper's is clockwise. I slip my top blade to the left and he, to the right.
Looking dead-on at one blade of my reed (tip upwards) I can just make out the edge of the rear blade on the right-hand side; For Cooper's reed, I can just make out the edge of the rear blade down the left-hand side. In both cases the slip is minuscule, almost non-existent - which is what I strive for when tying a reed.
J.
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Author: Graham Salter
Date: 2015-02-27 13:04
You are very kind! Yes, the challenge in writing clearly is never to be mis-understood without being verbose!
I totally understand you, and agree of course; you could not be clearer.
My thanks again.
"Over and Out".
Best wishes,
Graham
London orchestral oboist, CA/EH, d'amore, bass ob., piccolo musette;
teacher; consultations; master-classes
Contact: MAS: http://maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm
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Author: oboi
Date: 2015-02-27 13:18
I tie with my left hand, so I mirror everything that my teacher (right-handed) does. If you look top down at the tip of the reed, my wrap goes counterclockwise. I slip the top blade to the left, under the (my) presumption that when I wrap, the thread catches (viewing the reed on its side, the tip at the left, the staple at the right) the left edge of the top blade, wanting to push it back to an unsliped position, and therefore sealing the top blade against the bottom blade. I am no expert on this and sometimes don't even bother with a slip. But this is how I tie and how I rationalize what I'm doing.
I happen to have a reed now which I have tied too loosely (seems like it happens whenever I use silk thread). If I hold down tightly on the thread and try to rotate the thread in the direction that I tie, I can see the blades close. If I rotate in the other direction, it slips grotesquely (top blade to the left, bottom blade to the right). So I assume that's what happens when I'm actually tying, the counterclockwise wrap action forcing the reed back to unsliped/closed/locking position.
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Author: Graham Salter
Date: 2015-02-27 13:56
Thanks for this. I find exactly the same with a 'European' reed. So probably my 'scissors' idea applies: the thread pulls the blade in the direction it is wound, yet the tip is rotated outwards in the opposite direction – when one merely'crosses' the blades carelessly.
Therefore it appears that the action of slipping the tail of the blade deliberately actually *minimises* the shift, because it forces the edges back into one another! Your experience of nudging the cane back supports this.
A 'crossed' reed twists increasingly. A 'slipped' one lies with its edges closely tucked in, under control. Perhaps we all agree?
London orchestral oboist, CA/EH, d'amore, bass ob., piccolo musette;
teacher; consultations; master-classes
Contact: MAS: http://maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm
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Author: Graham Salter
Date: 2015-02-27 15:54
Thanks again to all. My chapter is now written, definitively and simply, I hope. Back to the real world!
London orchestral oboist, CA/EH, d'amore, bass ob., piccolo musette;
teacher; consultations; master-classes
Contact: MAS: http://maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2015-03-01 10:35
I get what you are saying, but, theoretically, a thread in static tension has equal and opposite forces pulling it in both directions. As long as the thread is static along the line of tension--not slipping--it shouldn't matter, the main force on the cane is perpendicular to the path of the thread, pushing the cane against the staple. It seems like the best way to prevent slippage of the cane is to roughen the exterior of the staple rather than to worry about which way the blades are slipped.
Of course, that is all just theoretical physics! I am sure you have made many thousand more reeds than I have! Nonetheless, I have been making reeds for 10+ years and my reeds, which are often slipped the wrong way, seal up fine 99% of the time. Well, at least my oboe reeds do! My English horn reeds don't always work out so well, but I think that may be more a result of the pre-shaped cane I buy.
My first reed-making instructor told me not to slip the blades at all, to aim for perfect alignment. Then another instructor told me to slip them, but I don't remember whether the direction of slippage was included in those instructions. Since joining this board some years ago, I have tried slipping them the "correct" way, but with the gouged, shaped and folded cane I buy, I sometimes find that the existing fold favors the "incorrect" slippage. Rather than fight the existing fold, and perhaps stress the cane, I just let it go the way it wants to go. Seems to work for me. But, then, I'm not a pro.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2015-03-11 03:28
Just to be perverse here, I'll weigh in. I've always striven to have no offset. If the cane is carefully shaped with a smooth edge, there is no leakage problem. When the blades are slipped, it narrows the chamber of the reed, effectively narrowing the shape but leaving the same mass in the blades, restricting the vibration of the reed.
When my students have response problems with reeds I've found that simply putting the blades back on top of each other will frequently free up the lower (big, fat) end of the response and make a recalcitrant reed much freer.
Like the practice of thin 'windows' in the back, slipping the blades has become increasingly common since I was a student learning reed making. Back in the 50's I never saw either practice.
(He said, cackling and beating his cane on the floor...)
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-03-11 16:06
@Bob,
Okay - you are the reed-shaper-tip king, so I take everything you say very seriously. @Mike - I take you seriously too - next post.
I believe that the most important factor - bar none - in shaping and tying on is that there be a perfect seal all the way from the staple to the tip of the reed.
Yes, it is possible to "fix" a leaky reed in many different ways: parafilm, plumber's tape, saran-wrap, fishskin, wax pencils heated with a lightbulb etc., but all of these adversely affect reed vibration in much the same way you describe - they add mass to all the wrong places on the reed.
IMHO a tiny overlap (a fraction of a millimeter) seals a fraction better than no-overlap since the thread wrapping torque pushes the blades more tightly together. You would be hard pressed to notice the overlap on a finished reed, but it is there nonetheless.
Is this a "compromise" because my reed blade edges are not perfect enough? Because I don't know how to keep razor-blades razor-sharp? Possibly so - but the results of this compromise are excellent.
All reedmaking is an exercise of judgement and compromise. I just played a full programme (Mozart overture, Tchaikovsky Violin cto. and Brahms 2nd symphony) on a reed that had less-than-optimal "cover". However, the reed was fresh, reliable, stable, responsive and in-tune over the entire pitch and dynamic range - more than good enough. I counted my blessings.
J.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-03-11 16:22
@Mike:
Quote:
I get what you are saying, but, theoretically, a thread in static tension has equal and opposite forces pulling it in both directions. As long as the thread is static along the line of tension--not slipping--it shouldn't matter, the main force on the cane is perpendicular to the path of the thread, pushing the cane against the staple.
I don't argue with you that the thread's primary purpose is to conform and fix the cane against the staple.
While wrapping, different rules apply. This is because as you wrap and tighten the thread, the thread moves against the cane and pulls it in the direction of wrapping. This is an additional force that with the correct minuscule overlap, pushes the top edge of the front blade more tightly against, and fractionally under, the top edge of the rear blade. 180 degrees round and the process is repeated for the lower edge of the rear blade against the front blade.
The "lock in" of the blades is then made permanent with the completion of the wrap down the staple.
If there is an overlap in the wrong direction, while wrapping and tightening the thread the blades would slip further and further apart instead of locking together. This is quite easy to demonstrate.
J.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2015-03-11 20:10
I am sure it is quite easy to demonstrate that you CAN cause slippage in an unfortunate direction. But I have demonstrated, in my years of reed-making, that you can have wrong-direction slippage and still get a reed to seal. This is possible as long as the thread is not allowed to move against the cane when wrapping, or allowing the cane to move sideways with respect to the staple. If you have sufficient tension in the thread, the normal force on the cane will be such to increase the frictional force holding the cane in place far greater than any small imbalance in the equal and opposite forces keeping the thread in tension.
In the words of philosopher of science Karl Popper, I have demonstrated the falsifiability of the theory of directional overlap by overlapping the reeds in the wrong way and still getting reeds to seal. Of course, we could both be right--it could be, that, under the conditions under which I wrap reeds, I am able to do things you are not able to do under the conditions with which you wrap reeds.
Sorry to get all sciencey on you, but it's my career...
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2015-03-11 22:02
Hello'
If I may, as a non American oboist, share my view on this matter?
For me there is one more aspect when tying on a red that is equally important as getting a proper seal - to create a tension that gives me the reed opening I prefer.
This I can accomplish by slipping the blades so that the thread pulls them together as jhoyla describes. If I slip then the other way I never get sufficient "height", something that is clearly visible not only at the reeds opening, but also right where the staple ends.
I use another technique, though. I intentionally put one blade inside the other, thus getting a reed where one blade is more rounded than the other. So, I already from the tying on decide which side of the reed will be the top and the bottom, and from thereon I always play the reed turned the same way. The benefits here is that I get a reed that doesn't leak, where the blade always stays where I want them and the tension and opening I prefer.
But - there are so many ways of doing reeds and as we all know: What works for one might not work for the other..
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-03-11 23:21
Attachment: twoblanks.JPG (649k)
Touché @Mike ;-)
I prefer to believe that we are both right. You are able to seal your reed even though the overlap is "wrong", while I from experience prefer not to try.
Attached a pic of two blanks, recently tied:
Left: P.Angelo shaper, 46mm staple, tied at 73mm, ~6.9mm wide at the tip
Right: Pisoni #3 shaper, 47mm staple, tied at 72.5 ~7.2mm wide at the tip
I'm a leftie, I wrap over the top, which is why the tiny overlap is on the right-hand side and the crossover thread descends rightwards.
Both blanks seal like a drum. Not that that proves anything (as I'm sure Mike will point out).
J.
Post Edited (2015-03-11 23:57)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2015-03-16 08:50
Dear Scandinavian,
Observations
Your method is what i do as well with my short scrape reeds and indeed they work well with this formula. One side is definitely darker and somewhat lower (round side up) and the other brighter and somewhat higher (flat side up). I played on both sides, preferring flat side up, but in the recent years i have stumbled upon so many flaws (mainly staccato) that i have slightly altered the finishing method.
For me personally the flaw with this method is that the tip of the reed can sometimes flare out, resulting in a less desirable response. Also, in this method the neck area can sometimes feel too "big", resulting in low notes that respond less well. Both issues can also cause a pitch which is far too low (especially with so much soft cane in the market now) and a resistance far too high, something that is not solved simply by scraping (for less resistance) or by a shorter staple length (for higher pitch, often used in Germany).
Without wire, the solution would be to use a really narrow shape slipping the top of the reed (yes, it is possible even when one blade is completely in the other!) to the left side (perhaps which side depends on the tying methods described in this thread).
With wire, the solution remains the same but i feel that the wire safeguards certain pieces of cane from going totally rogue (slipping further down than it should when prompted). The method is to first wire, then slip. However, a slightly narrower shape will not permit this possibility.
The opening i feel is rather flexible and can be altered through various means, however, what does not change easily is the volume of the reed itself and so the choice of shaper really does define a reed. European reed makers often use a shape far too wide, and for the method you prescribe this becomes almost impossible to work with.
Good to know that i am not doing something completely foreign, after all...
Regards,
Howard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2015-03-17 15:36
Dear Scandivanian, your photos are absolutely spot on! What oboe do you play on? You are of course right when you say: "whatever works", since we probably play on different oboes, have different lips, different sound concepts, scrapes, gouging etc.
Here is a video of a performance i did in Singapore in 2011 when i played reeds which were completely identical to yours in terms of tying (with a Buffet, D12 45mm, RC12 shape/similar to yours i think). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDH0dYTDags
Same system of reeds on a Marigaux M2 in 2014. (same but chiarugi no. 2, 47mm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJlIqEiTds
After 2013 i started to play more and more chamber and solo music, practice less and less (due to other career commitments), and as a result, found my system of reeds difficult to work on without lips of steel.
I searched far and wide and tried several different ideas over the course of 2 years. In the past few months i have adopted the method described in the previous reply. However, no recordings of that yet so in fact i don't know if it is better in the ears of the world! For myself there is improved staccato and sensitivity especially in the lower register and the 2nd octave is easier to reach in piano dynamics.
Of course i am not persuading anyone to adopt any other method, but it's nice to be able to share my experiences with someone who plays a similar system of reeds. Cheers!
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2015-03-17 15:39)
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2015-03-18 13:24
Beautiful playing, Howard! Doesn't sound like you had any reed issues going on there.
I don't practice unless I really need to, but I keep in good shape when working. However, I don't have problems with my setup even after some weeks off work.
When using RC12 and Chiarugi 2 47, how long do you tie on? I know Jordanov recommends 73.75, but I find that when using this method I need to tie on at 73 at the most or I'll get unwanted qualities.. I think it has to do with getting the inner blade completely inside the outer one where the thread ends and to achieve this I need the extra cane to work with that tying on shorter provides. If I get the blades "edge to edge" where the staple ends I will have a hard time playing it..
I play a Sound Alchemy Bel Canto oboe, but have used the same method on both Dupin and Frank oboes.
Once again typing on the phone, so please excuse any mistakes!
/Johannes
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2015-03-20 03:27
@jhoyla - Just for the record, please take any pronouncements I make with a grain of salt. I have met esteemed oboists for whom the way they have figured it out becomes the 'right' way, and who will entertain no other possibility. I speak to what works for me and has worked for my students, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.
Within each school of reed making (I'm Philadelphia style) everybody makes 'the same reed', except, of course, we all make the 'same reed' differently, sometimes quite differently.
I agree with you that a tight seal is the most important factor in successful reed making. Second in importance, in my opinion, is the slope or taper of the blend, since that is what couples the tip to the back and brings the energy of the vibrating tip to drive the back; the back is too thick to vibrate by itself...
Add to that all the decisions you mention about sound concept, instrument, embouchure, physiology and there is a huge number of valid possible solutions.
If you can build a reed that satisfies you in sound and response, you've solved the problem no matter what anybody else does. Or says...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2015-03-23 05:50
Dear Johannes,
I tie on 73.5 and have never thought about going shorter. Thanks for the tip!! P.S. The Bel Canto oboes are beautiful!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2015-03-23 14:56
Howard,
Yup, the Bel Canto is a beauty. Best instrument I ever tried. A recent Dupin and a Moennig was pretty close, but still.. it's in a league of it's own.
/Johannes
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