 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2015-02-03 04:44
OK, so, I am maybe looking for some reassurance that I am not completely crazy. Or, on the other hand, guidance toward self-improvement.
I play oboe and sometimes English horn in three orchestrae (all amateur, of varying quality), as well as in two quintets and two trios.
The issue is the demands of the director in the "middling" of my three orchestras. A capable and academically qualified person. Major American university context.
She spends what seems to me an inordinate amount of time during rehearsals going down the line of whichever section has most recently captured her attention, asking for this or that note or chord component to be played individually, commenting as she goes as to "flat", "sharp", or "on".
As a consciousness-raising technique, this might have legs. As a practical maneuver to get whatever objectionable effect corrected, maybe.
But, really. Does anyone actually expect that a note played a certain way at a certain time and then corrected, will actually be MORE likely to be correct the next time?
If I play a "G" above the staff dead in tune this time, does that predict how I will play it a half-bar later?
And what, in fact, constitutes being "in tune"?
Susan (who hasn't been here for a long time, but is an old-timer)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2015-02-03 05:12
Ooh, this one really gets my goat.
The chance of you hitting the pitch exactly the same next time is pretty much zero. The chance that you SHOULD hit the note the same way next time is also next to zero.
Since we don't play keyboard instruments, every note will be slightly different in pitch depending on the notes around it. Add to the mix reeds which are variable, weather which is variable, etc.
The only time this technique carries any weight is when it is used to highlight the quality of the chord, and whether in any given performance your note is more likely to need to tend flat, sharp, etc. If it makes people aware of how the chord should sound, then it has had some benefit, but if it is to fix 'wrong' tuning, then all it does is frustrate people. I realise there is a very thin line between the two and it takes a diplomatic conductor to know which side of the coin to fall on.
My pet hate is the players (flautists are terrible for this) who keep the tuner on the stand and play along with it, pulling faces when others are 'out of tune', when scientifically speaking, if you are playing to a tuner with non-keyboard instruments, you are the one who is actually out of tune!
The best way to personally 'fix' tuning is to understand where your note aurally fits in the context of the harmony and tune accordingly. If you have the fifth, it should be sharpened ever so slightly, a major third should sit a little flatter, etc. It's amazing how instants kick in if you have been playing for a long time and you get the chance to really listen.
You are not going crazy!
Rachel
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-02-03 05:36
I am also an amateur oboist ... I play principal in two orchestras and 2nd in a symphonic band. I also play in a trio Oboe Clarinet Bassoon and occasionally two Oboes and English Horn.
Playing in tune and well as playing rhythmically correct are the two most important aspects of ensemble playing. And probably the latter is most important.
Interpretation then comes along with creativity and nuance.
Personally, I feel not enough time is taken in rehearsal to address tuning issues.
Many amateurs play with their heads in their stands .. seldom look up and don't pay attention to the overall section or ensemble.
I spent years adjusting/tuning my oboe, reeds, embouchure etc to play in tune whether it be a low Bb and/or a high Eb. And yes I practice with a tuner some of the time - not always - to check my intonation.
I also strive for the best tone and lyrical playing possible within my skill level.
So if the conductor wants to be picky on intonation I say yes ... many times their don't bother because the amateur musicians even when guided have a difficult correcting/hearing their intonation errors.
There is nothing worse and more harmful then playing a group with poor intonation.
My two cents.
Mark
Post Edited (2015-02-03 05:37)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2015-02-03 05:57
You are absolutely correct, Mark. My personal issue (and I suspect Susan's as well) is the way it is done and the attitude towards tuning by the conductor.
As an educator, I know you can't teach tuning by telling people they are flat or sharp, or even by specifically targetting notes. You have to teach them about the feel of an 'in tune' note, or how their note fits in the context of a harmony or a melodic line. Otherwise, when the variables change (weather, reeds, a sharper-than-normal flute player, different performance space, etc), they won't be able to make the necessary adjustments.
Conductors SHOULD be fussy about tuning for sure. It takes a great one to know how it should be done so as to be effective.
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Author: oboi
Date: 2015-02-03 06:27
I am an amateur who plays in lots of ensembles of varying levels. Conductors will sometimes call out pitch issues and ask individual groups/sections to play their notes. Often it's on a chord and they ask each section to come in one at a time as to hear the harmony. That I believe will make people conscious of who's around them. But ultimately, the onus is on the player themself, I believe. I'm always conscious of my pitch and play with the tuner a lot, and also LISTEN, and able to instantaneously adjust. I do wonder, however, if I am more in the right at times and am adjusting to other players who are actually more out of tune.
One of the dangers that I find in playing in amateur groups is that depending on the group and how pitch-sensitive they are, it can wreak havoc on one's own sense of tuning. In some of the less advanced groups, it's true that most people aren't listening to each other. They're not aware of dynamics, don't have a clue what's happening in other parts and are too busy working on notes to notice pitch. I've struggled at times to know WHO to follow. Who do you follow when the principal or the bulk of the orchestra is off? What do you do when pitch veers off to the point of not being able to adjust? At that point, I think the conductor needs to step in. Working on single notes won't work. Telling the group to be conscious of their pitch and to work with their tuner at home will help. Making sure the principals know what they are doing and having the orchestra follow them is important. Getting them to listen to recordings how they fit in with everyone will help. But yeah, I find this to be one of the most trickiest issues in amateur playing. Pieces can always be played more slowly or things followed more metricly to ease difficulties. Easier repertoire can be chosen. But pitch will always be the major concern in a less-skilled group.
Like technique, being pitch-aware is a skill borne out of years of practice. It's not going to get any better unless the individual works on it (preferably with a teacher, which many adult amateurs don't have anymore). A conductor can only go so far. As an oboist, in addition to knowing your instrument, we have a double whammy of needing to to adjust to finicky reeds. I know a lot of pitch variances depend on my particular reed, but I have also learned the peculiarities of my instrument and also the specific notes which always cause me problems. Day by day I am working at making my notes sound in tune regardless of what my reed presents me. I am getting increasingly aware also of my own faults which lead to the pitch instabilities. In good small ensembles, I run into very few major pitch issues. Even though the absolute pitch may not be exactly A-440, the whole piece sounds in tune because everyone is conscious of it and can adjust.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2015-02-03 07:08
I think you are asking or pondering about what the "right" pitch is. I do not believe there is a simple answer to this dilemma. The right pitch measured by a tuner (or in equal temperament system of tuning) is a safe way to do things. If everyone does this in an ensemble, the harmony and melody do not necessarily feel natural (or warm) but it is a sure way to be clean and well defended way to do this thing. However, our perception are tuned naturally. We feel more comfortable to sing in a natural scale and feel warmer listening to harmonic progression with natural tuning pitches. As you can see that a well tuned piano is incapable of doing this. Like they say... a tone deaf can play a piano well but not oboe.
I am most sensitive to tuning when I practice long notes, which I start every practice session with. I noticed that I produce the same note in slightly different pitch in different key. It appears that I feel more comfortable in a little higher, a little lower, or at tuner exact pitches depending on the key I am in. The effect seems more pronounce when I play a slower schmaltzy phrase (an Irish folk theme for instance), especially in minor keys. I am sure this idea will not be compatible with atonal music, which is based on equal temperament system of scale.
Perhaps, your director is looking for that natural sound.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-02-04 11:09
I hugely enjoy playing in two amateur orchestras.
Yes, pitchiness is an issue. So are timing and synchronization, dynamics, attack, articulation, phrasing and a whole slew of other things.
We still make music and people come and enjoy our performances (though one snooty concertgoer told our conductor that we hardly compare with the Gwandhaus). In that orchestra we shore up with ringers for the concert. The best of these seasoned pros really enjoy playing with us - they say that we make up for everything with our enthusiasm.
IMHO it is a mistake to focus on (say) the intonation of one passage unless the lesson learned is more universal - better to point out the issue, say "please practice this section slowly with a tuner!", and move on. Amateurs (pay to) come to orchestra in order to make music, not to be lectured to, but we all enjoy it when a good conductor gives us new insight either about our individual playing or about the music itself.
@Rachel, some flautists SHOULD play with a tuner on the stand! Try to persuade a flute that he/she is playing a 3rd octave note about 50 cents sharp! To their ears they sound bright and beautiful. In tune with the tuner would be SERIOUS improvement and I tend to agree with JRC that for most instrumentalists it is a very good place to start from  The nuances described by JRC are completely smothered in any amateur orchestral setting.
I play with a tuner just beneath the music on my stand. I rarely look at it (I rely on my ears), but it is there if I need to confirm a note. I'm often wrong.
J.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-04 14:51
Flutes are the only instruments that are both sharp and flat at the same time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-02-05 02:35
I am presently the vice-president of the Board and Past President of the Board of my Community Orchestra.
We are an established orchestra of 35 plus years. We get paid to perform, receive grants both private and public, and collect donations.
There is always tension between being a "social club" and a "performing orchestra".
I personally tend to err on the side of higher standards and demands.
It is very embarrassing to perform with too many errors and lots negative feedback from the audience.
Our conductor chooses a wide range of music with various levels of difficulty so everyone can feel good about their participation; however, in the final analysis we have an obligation to perform to the best of our collective abilities.
And believe me as an amateur - I as everyone else has strengths and weaknesses.
There are many community orchestras and symphonic bands in my area. Each one has a reputation. One thing you don't want to hear is someone refusing to play with your group because of its poor reputation. It is then impossible to recruit new subs and regular players.
It is important to maintain a professional "aura" if not the members might just come down for coffee and cake with the concert being an after thought.
We can be "professional" in our demeanor and attitude and still be amateurs.
Each community orchestra must develop their own sense of identity. There are quite a few with a very high level of player competence. Ours falls somewhere is the middle.
In the summer I play with another orchestra which demands a higher level of competency which brings with it more "stress". Yet, if you want to improve your playing you reach out to play in these groups.
You can always take extra lessons with your teacher~!
Mark
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Author: oboi
Date: 2015-02-05 03:28
I hear you Mark! I was in a nearly identical situation as what you mentioned above. Behaving "professionally" despite being amateur is spot on! Being a social club and also a performing club can happen simultaneously. But once one decides to perform, it had better be done with professionalism. A social club can be professional. One needs not exclude the other.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2015-02-05 05:38
Chris, I wish this was Facebook and I could 'like' your comment. :P
I play with an orchestra at the moment whose committee wants the orchestra to tend more towards the 'professional amateur' ideal, which is completely at odds with the way the orchestra behaves (and has always behaved). The committee is also obsessed with our current conductor, the latest name in town, but I personally think he is lacking pedagogically for an orchestra of this (relatively low) level (he quite often engages in the tuning 'fixes' you describe, Susan).
So the committee wants the orchestra to be a certain way, but are stuck on this one conductor who is the least likely to get them there. The sub conductors we've had over the last year all have the ability to get us where they want...but they don't like any of those.
Give me strength!
(FWIW the only reason I am still there is because they own the cor I have ATM.)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2015-02-05 13:02
I recognize you're mostly speaking in the realm of community orchestras, but I thought I'd give you my 2 cents.
First of all, I play all of the time in my professional orchestra (60-70 concerts a season) with the tuner on. It's not for me to point to one person and tell them they are flat or sharp, but for me to keep a general gauge to keep track of where the other sections are going (usually sharp) and by how much. I use this information to know just how far I need to go, and in reed preparation. For example, i know the performance hall is generally very cold (strong AC) and very dry humidity so when I make reeds at home, they have to be slightly sharp and open to compensate for the differences in climate).
In terms of exactly at the same pitch as the previous day, I'd say its not important to get exactly the same pitch as you were the previous day but to get it exactly in tune immediately with the flute (faster than the previous day), and I should be able to tell where the flute is in pitch assuming that note is not the first note of the concert, and using the tuner will give me a very good sense of where the flute is going to be so I can match that. This is particularly an issue in a very quiet situation (where flutes notoriously go flat) or in a very loud situation particularly in the lower register where flutes tend to force and consequentially go very sharp. I would also say that my reedmaking is extremely consistent to the point that I can play at virtually the same pitch on almost every note if need be, despite changing factors around me. This is demanded of me by our principal conductor and principal guest conductors, who have come to rely on me for pitch stability, particularly because I do not rotate. I will only say something like, "Hey can we bring the pitch down there?" if it's really unreasonably sharp.
Again, I realize I play in a very different situation (4 hour rehearsals M-TH, 1.5hr rehearsals Fr and Sat before our 2hr concerts), and with different players (every section has a co-principal but our oboe section, so I'm always playing with two different bassoon, clarinet, and flute principals).
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2015-02-05 13:09)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-02-05 16:40
@Cooper, thank you for that insight into the world of professional orchestras. I have always wondered.
I will now be able to answer all the snooty sneerers who sniff at my tuner on the stand: "There are professional oboists who do the same". I don't use it to be holier than they, but I do use it to check where I am, and where we all are, in relation to a given pitch standard (442 over here).
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-02-05 21:57
Chris,
Even in my community orchestra .... the conductor has said to me that he relies on my pitch stability for the orchestra.
It is one more responsibility for us Oboists~!
And yes at times I keep my tuner out ... although I don't constantly use it as a reference.
I actually play my A 440 (eyes closed) and then check it. It drives me a bit crazy to watch the needle go "nuts" when the brass tunes. They are usually flat. :(
Mark
Post Edited (2015-02-05 21:58)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2015-02-06 12:02
Great comments here.
I also play with the tuner on my stand, for reference. And I am pleased to say that I manage to stay relatively in tune -- it is not a problem for which I am often singled out.
My frustration here is, as Rachel surmised, with the amount of time the director spends doing these round-robin pitch assessments, which seem to me to not be an effective intervention, given that she feels the need to do it again and again and again over the rehearsal cycle.
I am sure the director is also frustrated when she hears, time after time, the clarinets or the flutes or the trumpets or the horns playing out of tune within or between sections. But, you know the definition of insanity, right?
I just wish she had another tool in her kit with which to address what I am sure she perceives as as problem.
Susan
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Author: ptarmiganfeather
Date: 2015-02-06 12:49
I play with my tuner on and within sight. Definitely not a professional here but a dedicated hobbyist.
I play with a 60 piece concert band, a completely different beast. In all seriousness, the few times playing with strings I had to dial back quite a bit on the volume, even though I might not have been playing loud per se, but I could actually hear myself. I am not kidding.
I hope this makes sense to other concert band oboists.
I have been guilty of being extremely out of tune. Mostly just try to blend in, especially when I can hear myself over the general din. I am speaking of this din out of love because it hides a lot of ills on my part.
Most of the time it's just play along as I know my reed is vibrating but I can only hear percussion and brass. It's lovely though when that huge sound can come down so I can play a little solo here and there. My pet peeve is playing "solos" with brass. Like who can hear the oboe over the trumpet?
I look at the tuner most of the time then immediately go into denial as to how sharp/flat the noise coming out of the end of my oboe is making. Most of the time I just try to play along.
During practice sessions the tuner stays on and I pay close attention to it.
Not sure how much that adds to the conversation.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2015-02-06 18:05
ptarmiganfeather wrote:
> I play with my tuner on and within sight. Definitely not a
> professional here but a dedicated hobbyist.
>
> I play with a 60 piece concert band, a completely different
> beast. In all seriousness, the few times playing with strings
> I had to dial back quite a bit on the volume, even though I
> might not have been playing loud per se, but I could actually
> hear myself. I am not kidding.
>
> I hope this makes sense to other concert band oboists.
I laughed at this, because I know EXACTLY what you mean. I was going to comment on that in your other thread, to say how nice it is to be able to hear myself in the orchestra and not have to blow my head off to be heard!
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Author: oboi
Date: 2015-02-07 00:21
I sometimes play with the tuner on my stand during rehearsal, moreso to determine what my absolute pitch is. There are a few notes which I struggle always to pitch correctly, as I've been off so many times that I overcompensate. The "bad" pitch is in my head so when I do play the right pitch, I think it's wrong.
I've been very publicly called out for pitch issues years ago so it is my constant source of doubt. Good god, please don't do that, conductors.
Yes, why do flutists like to bring out the tuner constantly? It makes the oboist paranoid. :-P
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2015-02-07 03:56
Speaking of paranoia, what I find is that I play my very best in a supportively permissive situation -- but not in a completely uncritical situation.
I play in three different orchestras.
In one, the director is very permissive and studiously uncritical (he does have the ability to discriminate, but perhaps is defeated because the general level of musicianship there is "amateur" in the worst sense of the word). In that situation, for whatever reason, excellence is not expected, and it shows. It really is not fun, coming or going.
In the orchestra which was the subject of my post originating this thread, I DO get paranoid, as you say. I find that I am loathe to take any sort of risk, for fear of being called out. It has a very inhibiting effect on my playing, although the ultimate product is usually respectable. But not fun in the creation of it.
My favorite orchestra (and odds-on, the best of the three) is the one in which the director is intent on the musical effect -- the forest, not the trees. There is the opportunity to sin boldly -- but also the opportunity to soar. And more times than not, we soar.
Curious, no?
Susan
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2015-02-18 21:13
Just my 2 cents here..
If a collegue had a tuner on the music stand, and it was turned on, I would simply remind him/her that he/she forgot to switch it off. We tune at the beginning of each session, then we listen. If something is out of tune, we check it but without a tuner. If we really, really can't seem to fix it then we just might use a tuner as a basic reference as to who is going it which direction but keeping in mind that once we get to that bar in performance the circumstances might be different.
No way is the right way, but this is how I'm used to work. (And as experience tells me, this is how it's done throughout professional orchestras in Scandinavia.)
/Johannes
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2015-02-19 07:05
@ Johannes,
I thought a lot about your 2 cents (which felt like a direct attack against me) and I just wanted to respond thoughtfully.
In an ideal world, yes, I would agree that this is ideal. It would be wonderful to play in an orchestra where everyone not only wants to listen to everyone (and work together and compromise no less), but also to discuss pitch levels, and genuinely make the best music possible. Sadly, I must state this isn't always the case in my situation. In fact, it's more of the exception.
My best short answer, is I think this really depends on the orchestra, the conductor, and the personally dynamics between the players.
Our orchestra is a complicated one, with most of the principal players being trained internationally. That said, about half of them are trained in the states and still tend toward A=440, while others are trained in Germany, Italy, Russia, Poland, or one of many other countries and prefer 442, or even 444. This already poses a problem. Furthermore, many of teach at the same university and for one reason or another (personal issues, or professional academic politics) there are several sections/principals that flat out refuse to acknowledge each other's existence, not to mention verbally communicate with one another. This does not bode well when trying to work together to agree to a common pitch level.
Secondly, I feel I should state that our conductor will not hesitate if one section is out of tune to ask me to play some note and have them build their chord upon my pitch center, even if it's an hour into rehearsal and the pitch center has changed. For that reason I feel I need the security and constant knowledge of knowing where to place my pitch, even if it's 20 cents sharp.
So to summarize, it sounds like your orchestras in Scandinavia are much more agreeable than mine, and I envy your pleasant work environment!
Cheers
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-02-19 16:26
@Scandinavian, if I may, I have an analogy.
Modern saloon cars nowadays often have a rear-facing camera for reversing.
I don't need it.
I can easily park using only the wing-mirrors and by looking over my shoulder - let's call this the "proper way" of parking.
Nevertheless, having a rear-facing camera is extremely useful if I want to ensure that I'm slotting in perfectly with the other cars in the car-park.
I treat my tuner like a rear-facing camera. Most of the time I never look at it, certainly when I'm driving forward! However, when I want to confirm that I'm in the right place it is very useful.
J.
P.S., I don't want to take the analogy too far. The point is that a tuner gives you additional data that you deliberately choose to ignore, while I choose to use it judiciously (and not slavishly).
Post Edited (2015-02-19 16:30)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-02-19 17:44
Hi,
I feel the same way. It is a very useful tool to double check yourself.
Mark
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2015-02-19 21:44
Cooper - if I offended you I sincerely apologize! That was never my intention and, as I stated - there is no right way. All ways are good except the bad ones, as my dear old teacher used to tell me.
I appreciate you sharing your working enviroment. If I was in your situation, I would probably do as you do. It must be frustrating? I am aware that we do have a good atmosphere going at the opera here. We seem to be able to discuss and solve most matters, be it musical or other, without anyone reacting irrational. Most of the time, anyway! We're in the same boat, and try to help each other to do our best.
We do sometimes use a tuner if we're not making any progress, it's nice to get a definitive answer sometimes, even though it's not always directly transferable, if you understand how I mean? More often we start with the lowest note in a chord, if it sounds ok we build it from there. More often than not it isn't actually a tuning issue, but a balance issue! If, for instance, the third is ever so slighly to loud the chord will sound out of tune.
I do use the tuner sometimes when pracising - I hold a note without looking at the tuner. When I'm sure about the tuning, I check the tuner. Quite revealing!
I also always check my reeds against the tuner, once they're finished, to be sure that they are where I want them to be. Most of the time I use the tuner when tuning the orchestra, but sometimes not. Seems to work either way..
I wrote my previous post since someone wrote that it was nice to hear a professional perspective on the tuner issue - I wanted to share my view. I don't want this to be a debate or discussion about right or wrong, since there is no right or wrong, right? I probably did a pretty bad job expressing myself.
Once again, I'm sorry if you felt attacked. I definitely could have expressed myself in a more subtle way.
jhoyla:
My dad has one of those cameras on his car. I just get really confused!
But, as I stated, I use the tuner when it's needed, I just don't use it most of the time. I might just learn how to use that camare too some day
Best regards from a snowy Umeå
Johannes
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Author: JRC
Date: 2015-02-20 02:03
When in doubt, I would look at my daughter. She has the perfect pitch...
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2015-02-20 12:22
Just a question: How is it possible to play with a tuner? Isn't a tuner tuned as a piano?
If I look at the difference between C-E it should be 1,25:1 but the piano plays 1,259921:1 and the C-Eflat is should be 1,20:1 but the piano give us 1,189207:1
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