 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-11-27 17:07
A few years ago I was making my own reeds and have now decided to make my own again. However , for some strange reason I've now come up against the frustrating problem of the 'cross over' whilst binding the reed to the mantle. Try as best as I can , I cannot seem to avoid the problem of after I do the 'cross over' , one end of the tread will continue to wind and the other will unwind. I have two books that illustrate with pictures the whole procedure of binding and all is clear enough up to the point when the tread is crossed over. Here the illustrations to me are as clear as the proverbial puddle of mud. The two books are Dr Downing's "Making Oboe Reeds are Easy" and R Sprenkle & D Ledet "The Art of Oboe Playing"
I don't understand why I was able to do this in the past , but now am completely frustrated by it. What am I doing wrong ?
HELP (please)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-11-28 15:17
Hi Barry,
I am trying to picture the issue in my head...do you mean that after the crossover, the initial turns are unwinding?
If that's the case, take a close look at what you are doing with your left hand (if you are right handed). Make sure your wrist is completely stable and the mandrel doesn't flip at any stage (it's easy to do this if you are concentrating on your working hand).
Also, until you tie off, make sure you are keeping tension between your table leg of choice and the reed with the initial turns on it. The connecting thread should be completely taut.
I'm not sure if that helps...or if I've understood the issue properly!
Rachel
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-11-29 05:13
Hi WoodwindOz, thank you for the response. My set up is that I have the nylon thread fastened to a hook on my table. I have about 60 cm of thread and the other end is wrapped around a few times on a wooden cotton reel. This is held in my right hand. The mantle is held in my left hand and it also holds the reed securely on the stable. I then take the thread around with my right hand several times till the sides of the reed close up evenly on the stable. I'm using 47mm stables. Therefore I have the mark where the binding will begin 25 mm from the end of the reed.
The problem I was having is what to do when 'crossing over' the thread that is in my right hand. I didn't realise that I must continue to roll the thread that is taut with my left hand till it binds over the thread that is in my right hand.
Then , once the tread is 'hitched' under I then must ease off the taut of that section of the tread. (that is being hitched under)
This is what I was NOT doing. I kept the right hand pulling the thread taut as well.
So I"ve figured this out but I still find the 'crossing over' procedure very fiddly but I"m getting better at it.
It's strange that I'd forgotten all this but the situation was not helped by the two books that I have being very vague about the 'crossing over' procedure.
Anyway , I'm very glad that I'm back into making Oboe reeds again. I find it very relaxing once I get over the frustration of details that were forgotten.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-11-29 11:59
I understand now! Even after watching my professor do it, it still took me awhile to figure out the mechanics of the crossover.
We had a discussion on here awhile back about not doing the crossover, starting from the top thread. I had several tries and could not master this without doing exactly what was happening to you.
If it helps, once I've done the crossover I tend to work at an angle so that my left hand is almost parallel to the anchor thread, rather than perpendicular. This seems to encourage the anchor thread to sit down nicely as I tie down the staple.
Best of luck! I personally found the tying on stuff much harder than the scraping part of reedmaking.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-12-01 00:32
Barry,
Your problem is too much tension in the anchor thread.
Remember that the anchor thread is only that - an anchor. Once you have wound up to the top, crossed over and begun to wind down the staple the anchor thread is essentially secure - you could snip it now and nothing would happen. Nevertheless, it is useful for the tie at the end to have something to tie to. All it has to do is continue down under the wrapping at the side of the cane and staple with little or no tension.
The tension should be applied mainly between your wooden reel and the staple/mandrel. Just keep the anchor thread a little taut.
J.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-12-01 01:15
Now that's really interesting Jhoyla, I've been doing it the other way around. It's the thread that I have in my right hand which holds the wooden reel that I try and make go under the anchor thread. After I manage to get the reel thread 'hitched' I cut it off leaving just enough for it to be bounded under the anchor thread. I've been keeping the anchor thread taut all through the procedure.
Ok, it's all a steep learning curve for me. I'll try and do it the other way around as you suggested. Not straight away as I have managed to bind three reeds so far and am now occupied with the scrapping procedure.
Thank you for you instructions. Much appreciated.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-12-01 03:51
You've all got me confused! What I do, and what I've seen everyone I know do, is wrap from some starting point up to where the sides close equally on both sides - ideally right at the top of the staple - then cross over and wrap ON TOP of the anchor thread. This traps the anchor thread. Then wrap down to wherever you stop - I stop below the cane - and secure the wrapping with a couple of half hitches. Two is sufficient, I use three and when I'm feeling insecure I'll use four...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-12-01 04:02
Yes Huboboe, that's sounds correct and is what Jhoyla was explaining to me.
Thank you to both of you for explaining the details. And to WoodwindOz as well. At the moment I"m now busy scraping three reeds that I somehow did manage to get binded. I'm using multicoloured thread and as well as that looking very attractive, I've managed to make it look very neat even though I did it the opposite to what was explained to me.
I'm also helped considerably by the fact that I have a mantle that has flat sides on it's handle that line up with the oval orifice of the stable.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-12-02 09:03
Ah ha! Now I finally understand the crossover and why my first reed instructor didn't do it (or tell me to do it). The key is this phrase: "ideally right at the top of the staple." That makes it sound as if the stopping place is determined by what it requires to get the cane to close properly, even if it isn't exactly at the top of the staple, although that is "ideal." What my 1st teacher taught me was that getting the thread just to the end of the staple was the most important thing--you just had to do trial and error with the first loop of thread, with relatively low tension, right at the top of the staple until the cane was positioned so that it just came together on both sides with that first loop of thread. He told me that going past the end of the staple would make it impossible for the reed to maintain a proper opening. That is why the crossover never made sense to me--the cane would hide how close you were to the end of the staple, which I was taught was the most important thing to watch for.
This also explains another thing: why, with some staples and some cane shapes which seem to work great for other folks, I just never can get the sides of the reed to close properly. Perhaps if my wrapping technique would focus on getting the sides to close properly without such regard for the end of the staple, these combinations of shape and staple would work for me, too.
Crossover here I come? Errr...ummm....we'll see. I have almost 40 years of habit to break.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-12-02 17:27
Mike,
I use a vernier caliper. I measure through the staple using the stem onto a firm surface, and clamp the caliper. I now have a perfect gauge of the end of the staple that I can pick up and use while wrapping. If the wraps don't reach the jaws, I'm still short of the end of the staple.
There is a lot you need to pay attention to, while wrapping.
o The oval of the staple should be in-line with the eventual reed opening
o The wraps must stop just before the end of the staple
o The blades must be perfectly in-line with the staple, not angled to the right or left
o The blades must seal shut, but not be excessively overlapped
o The thread must deform the curve of the blades to exactly conform to the staple, but not be so tight that it breaks the bark
o The thread must be tidily wrapped so that no spaces appear between the wraps
o The knot at the end must be firm and secure, and not come undone
I cut a 3mm ring of drinking straw and use it to close the shaped piece of cane before I start. With a wedge blade I roughly cut off the ears, since they get in the way of sighting down the reed for straightness.
I use a simple jig (a ruler projecting from under the surface of my work-desk) to insert the staple to the correct tie-on length (usually 73 mm). I wriggle the staple into the cane and "feel" the center line, making sure that all the alignments are correct. Only then do I begin wrapping, loosely, three loops with space between the loops.
I roll the staple up and down the thread, slowly adding tension as I go so that the curve and tension is gradually applied. I roll towards me to let the wraps travel up towards the tip of the staple, and back towards the anchor to move closer to the base. In this manner I can also verify that both sides are closing equally, and that both sides are perfectly closed as I roll the thread towards the tip of the staple. If I rotate the mandrel through 90 degrees I can hold it in the same hand as my thread-reel, allowing me to pick up and use my pre-set caliper.
And then I crossover and wind down. Until till now my tension has increased from mp, through mf and to f. Now, winding down the staple I increase tension to ff, the tension being mainly between my two hands - the reel and the mandrel. I tie off at the bottom and snip the ends. Voila!
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Author: oboegy
Date: 2014-12-02 21:31
In reply to mschmidt:
The issue of how the sides of the cane close just at the end of the staple is a matter of having just the correct tie length determined for a given shape and staple combination. This is an issue for some experimentation first as a paramount consideration. The tie length is correct when the cane sides just close properly precisely at the top of the staple. Once you have it (the proper tie length) determined (within say + or - 0.2 mm), write it down and always set it up first with the cane on the staple before any tying starts.
What I do is place the cane on the end of the staple, more or less aligned properly, and then use a digital caliper to establish the predetermined tie length measured from the bottom of the staple to the top end of the cane. Next, hold the cane and staple together this way with one hand while you mark with a pencil a line across the cane bark (both sides), showing exactly where the end of the staple lies.
Next, keeping everything in place, move over to start tying. Whichever method you use, the pencil lines showing the end of the staple inside the cane become your target for beginning the crossover or ending the top of the wrap. There is no more concern of the cane obscuring how close you are to the top of the staple. If you find one side tending to close a little bit more than the other side, simply shift the cane a little bit sideways while keeping the position on the staple the same until both sides are closing to the same degree right where the pencil marks are.
You can see my pencil marks clearly at the top of the staple in this photo that I took of four tied reed blanks:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/69900046@N06/15656412887/
Once again, this works consistently once you have first determined the proper tie length for a given staple/shape combination. Good luck with your further experimentation now.
George Young
Oboe/English Horn
Amateur from Chicago
(65 yr. old electrical engineer who first took up the oboe at age 53)
Post Edited (2014-12-03 01:08)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-12-03 02:09
@George,
I tried the pencil marks for many years, until I realized that the constant shifting of the blades to center them - even slight movements - nearly always ends up shifting the cane further off the staple. By the time I get to the pencil marks they are no longer accurate and I can easily tie over the end of the staple. However, it obviously works for you! :-)
J.
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Author: oboegy
Date: 2014-12-03 04:13
@jhoyla,
Yes, absolutely, I agree with you. That is why, before taking the wrap too far down towards the bottom, I also always check the status of the wrap to the staple end with an oboe reed ruler. If something has gone awry, to where the top of the wrap is not within one thread width's thickness of the measured end of the staple, then it's time to unwrap, reposition and start again. With experience, I find this happens less than 10% of the time.
George
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-12-03 08:49
Well, after further thought--and the very thorough comments from both of you, jhoyla and oboegy--I am no longer sure what I was saying yesterday. I was picking up on a phrase of huboboe which I thought gave me a clue to a long-standing anthropological question of mine about tying styles. I then made an unjustifiable leap from a suspicion about strategy to some miscellaneous problems I had with reed closure several mm above the top of the tie, not at the top of the staple. But on second thought I doubt overtying the top of the staple a turn or two would do anything to correct that problem. (And yes, I did try tying that problematic cane both higher and lower on the staple, without managing to solve the problem.)
I have found numerous cane/staple combinations that give me no problems with closure despite my somewhat unorthodox methods, and, having other parameters in reed making which warrant more immediate investigation, probably won't do too much experimentation with tying strategies in the near future. But I thank you both for your very detailed instructions.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-12-07 02:31
Mike, when I say 'ideally at the top of the tube' I was speaking generally. There is a bit of leeway, but think of it this way:
The proper tie length (which will vary depending on the shape and on the diameter of the top of the tube) is when the cane closes evenly one turn before the top of the tube. That last turn on slightly wider cane than the turn before will snug up the sides firmly without crushing the cane and springing open the sides further up.
Until that penultimate turn which closes the sides, the top of the tube is visible on the open sides. You will be able to gage correctly whether there remains just 2 turns or whether you need to adjust your wrap length.
If you wrap even a half turn beyond the top of the staple you will kill the reed's vibration. You can demonstrate this with a thin metal 6" ruler: hold the ruler at the square edge if your bench top and twang it. If you clamp it with your fingers back from the edge, it will rattle against the bench edge. If you clamp it at the edge, it will vibrate freely. if you extend your finger just beyond the bench edge, the rule will just go thud and not vibrate.
All my tubes are the same dimension and I always use the same shape (a Brannen X), so my wrap length is fixed and I use a sharp pencil to mark the side of the cane before wrapping. After starting to wrap, I check that the cane is on the mark and closing evenly, then pay attention to the closing turn - is it closing evenly? - and to the last turn to be sure I don't wrap past the end, and I cross over and finish.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of consistency. If you have to fool around with each wrap because your tubes are different you will spend a lot of unnecessary time. Better to find out what tubes work best for you and invest in a couple of dozen new ones which all fit your mandrel the same way. Learn what wrap length works, and mark your cane before wrapping and I guarantee You'll be a happier camper.
Regards,
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-12-07 04:07
Hi guys. I'm reading all your comments and printing them off for future reference. Lots of very useful information here.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-12-07 12:32
Quote:
I can't emphasize enough the importance of consistency. If you have to fool around with each wrap because your tubes are different you will spend a lot of unnecessary time. Better to find out what tubes work best for you and invest in a couple of dozen new ones which all fit your mandrel the same way.
Amen to that.
Just my luck that I standardized on Stevens No. 2 46mm staples, just before he stopped making them. :-(
I'm having some luck with 46 mm staples from Forrests, but if anyone knows where to get equivalent staples I'll be eternally grateful.
J.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-12-07 21:57
Are people confusing me with the original poster? I do not experience any frustration in tying my reeds. I have standardized my staples to be 46 mm Guercio d12s that I get from Germany, and I have several dozen of them. I am doing a little experimentation with cane shapes, which is necessitated by my changing cane suppliers, but I am happiest with narrower shapes.
The only reason I entered this thread is that I thought I might have stumbled on a reason for why people do the crossover, which I have never done for almost 40 years, and which has not seemed to cause problems in 95% of the reeds I have tied. I was just wondering whether that 5% I did have problems with years ago were due to the lack of a crossover. You have now convinced me that they were not.
I think measuring the cane is probably a good idea, but, given my imparied abilities to keep things where they belong, I would spend more time looking for the calipers each time than doing the little low-tension adjustment shuffle that I do with each reed, which takes no more than 15 seconds.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-12-08 08:45
Mike, if you don't cross over and wrap the anchor thread under the wrapping, how do you secure the anchor end of the anchor thread? I remain confused...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-12-08 09:33
Maybe I should just make a short video after this busy week is over...
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-12-08 17:29
I think that Mike is describing a "zero-wrap" crossover, as opposed to the 3-wrap crossover we are more used to. The Anchor thread still ends up underneath the wraps, all the way down.
I used to buy reeds made in this manner about 35 years ago.
J.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-12-10 10:09
Yes, I think that is an apt description. The teacher who taught me to do this made reeds for sale and he wanted everything streamlined. He claimed to be able to tie a reed in less than a minute with his hand-cranked winder. I never got a winder but I never learned to do reeds the "regular" way.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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