 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-14 20:34
I had no idea how to shorten this into a title...
What is the consensus on scraping the bark on the ends of the cane before tying on? (I'm referring to the cane at the staple end.) I know there are some players who swear by it and others who insist it should never be done (we had quite a heated debate about it in studio awhile back). I've tried it once or twice, and maybe it was coincidence, but the cane cracked every time when I tried to tie on.
I don't do it currently, but from an aesthetic point of view it would look tidier, but I want to know others' opinions on the effects it has other than appearance.
And for those who do it, are there any special considerations?
Rachel
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-14 20:50
I think it's best to taper the ends of the cane so the thread will go on without any gaps between the windings. An abrupt step can cause a gap between the windings at the end of the cane which doesn't look good and can also cause a leak if you don't varnish your thread after binding. Plus thinning the ends down will also help to prevent the cane splitting when it's bound.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-04-14 20:50)
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2014-04-15 01:14
I totally agree with Chris P.. If there isn't a layer of bark present at each end of the cane, then that bark can't crack there, because it isn't there anymore!. I know I'm being redundant by repeating myself, but that is how I sew it or in this case, don't see it. Unfortunately, at the point where the bevel ends (towards the tip end) and there is bark there, then it can crack, like one did for me last week, only one out of four though. Even though I saw it, I continued to complete the tieing and then cut the bark off on the crack, right above the thread. If I don't get away with it, then soon enough, I will notice that the reed tends to crow high and play low. Fortunately, that hardly ever happens to me. Most of the time you can't see the crack, unless you have a very strong light.
I find that if you soak in very hot water (the hot(t?)est you can get out of the tap) , the cane is more flexible and less prone to cracking while tieing. Even though I bevel, I still get a gap sometimes in the top threading, at the crossover, as it tends to slide down the hill, so Chris's advice is good to coat the thread, intil it, at least clears the cane. Actually, when I attach the thread to the I-hook, I coat it with bees-wax, beyond where it will be cut off, and then I run my fingers back and forth on it, which causes the wax to melt into the thread. Even with hot water, I would expect un-beveled cane to be cracking almost, all the time. But then, the now late, Mr Still, used to say that the oboe is just one, long series of paradoxes, or something like that. I remember that once, he had me show four, visiting oboe students, how to tie reeds, so I couldn't have been too far off! Regards, Loree DX something-something is on its way to me - yippee!
R. Still former student
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-15 06:09
Thanks guys. I haven't had problems with leaking (I use beeswax and nail varnish). Just appearance. Guess I'll experiment some more.
Yes, I soak in the hottest water out of the tap. Cold/cool water has a huge impact on the flexibility of the cane, especially here where it can't decide if it's going to be autumn or not (35C last weekend... :S) and cooler water seems to vary the 'climate' for the cane too much.
My current (borrowed) cor is a DRxx - it's in desperate need of a service, but it seems not to matter what condition my reeds are in, it just sings. Despite the leaks, it is the nicest cor I have played. I hope your oboe is in a similar vein!
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2014-04-15 08:21
Thanks for comments and your weather sounds like Chicago. Two days ago it was almost 80 and tonight there's snow on the ground! Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: darryoboe
Date: 2014-04-15 16:25
Keep in mind that doing so also affects the tip opening of the reed. Reeds that are scraped in this way tend to be more "closed".
I only scrape the ends before tying when I am familiar enough with the cane I'm using to know whether it will result in the tip I wish to have.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-16 05:48
Thanks, darryoboe, that was the kind of observation I had heard in the past. Tip openings don't worry me too much as I wire my reeds, but still something to consider.
I have also heard that it may affect the way the reed vibrates, and its brightness, but I don't know how true or obvious either of these things are.
BF51, I do not miss Chicago weather in the slightest. I'll take your 80F, but you can keep your snow!!
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Author: JohnW
Date: 2014-04-16 07:57
I have somewhat limited experience, but have had them crack both ways.
If the crack doesn't progress very far, I just finish tying and so far have not had a crack progress out past the end of the staple. I'm sure my time will come, I've only made about 40 reeds, cor and oboe together.
I tied two new oboe reeds last night, one cracked and one didn't, both tapered on the small ends, same batch of cane, soaked in the same bowl for about two hours at room temperature.
I have a suspicion that the source of the crack is some kind of structural defect in the cane, like a soft spot between an adjacent pair of hard fibers.
In engineering this sort of defect is called a notch or stress riser. It's what allows a crack to initiate. From that standpoint, tapering would better since that should reduce the bending stress at the edge of the cane.
JohnW
amateur adult beginner, oboe and cor
www.OboeHobo.com
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Author: oboi
Date: 2014-04-16 10:04
Having come to no conclusion about whether a taper does anything to the opening of the reed, I've standardized to scraping off the ends for all of my reeds. I do it for my oboe reeds because, yes, it does make the tie-on look nicer, without the bump. I do it for my EH and baroque oboe reeds because they will crack otherwise. EH cane, in my experience, has a higher tendency to crack if left unthinned, and my baroque oboe reeds REALLY like to crack if I don't scrape the ends thinner.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2014-04-16 11:40
Quote:
What is the consensus on scraping the bark on the ends of the cane before tying on?
For 20+ years I tapered my reeds. For the past two years, I no longer do this after reading Elaine Douvas explain that she believes it effects the opening of the blank to be smaller. I've not been tapering for about a year now, and I'm not really sure if it makes a difference or not.
Quote:
I think it's best to taper the ends of the cane so the thread will go on without any gaps between the windings. An abrupt step can cause a gap between the windings at the end of the cane which doesn't look good and can also cause a leak if you don't varnish your thread after binding. .
An abrupt step, perhaps. Of course this all depends on how you tie. For example, I tie one or two loops up, before I cross over and come back down, by which the 2nd loop down the reed is completely sealed and I test it to make sure that it seals before tying the rest of the way, a good 7-8mm from the very end of the piece of cane. Yes, agree that it looks better after tapered, but with some practice you can make it look decent enough.
Quote:
Yes, I soak in the hottest water out of the tap. Cold/cool water has a huge impact on the flexibility of the cane, especially here where it can't decide if it's going to be autumn or not (35C last weekend... :S) and cooler water seems to vary the 'climate' for the cane too much.
Funny, I always had leaking problems WHEN I soaked my cane in hot water. Soaking cane in hot water makes the pores of the cane expand and flood with water, and thus the entire piece of cane expand and warp far more than using tepid room water. It takes longer for the piece of cane to shrink as it cools. When the blank dries, the piece of cane is bound to the staple, but shrinks far more dramatically than it would if it were not soaked in hot water thus creating more torque and warpage.
My two cents. Not saying that my opinion is authoritative by any means, but observations from my own experience.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2014-04-16 12:00)
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Author: darryoboe
Date: 2014-04-16 17:36
I have always used the hottest possible tap water to soak cane, just because "that's the way I've always done it".
After reading your comment I'm soaking a few pieces in medium-warm water right now. It will be interesting to see if I can tell a difference.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-04-16 19:10
I spent a good length of time playing with this a while back. @cooper, I may try a few batches without thinning on the strength of Elaine's advice, for some new data-points.
My belief is that the lateral tensile strength of the bark is greater than the lateral tensile strength of the inner layers of cane, so removing the bark can actually encourage splitting.
[On the other hand, if the cane splits at the extreme end of the cane (where it is thinned) it usually has no effect on the reed - only if a crack is visible above the thread does it affect the reed in my experience.]
Certainly it is more aesthetically pleasing for the thread to wrap smoothly over the ends and down the staple.
Consequently, I thin my cane but by scraping the ends "inside out", thinning to the bark. I use my finger for support. Tying-on success rate (i.e., no splitting) is well over 90%.
As always, YMMV.
J.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-04-27 10:22
I have always thinned the ends of the cane for purely aesthetic reasons. I can sort of imagine that this might possibly have some effect on reed opening, but I would think that variations between the lateral rigidity of individual pieces of cane would have a much larger effect.
I don't see how it could affect leakage, though. If the sides of the reed are sealed up down to the top of the staple, then there is no way that there can be leakage beyond the top of the staple. I've never used wax, varnish or fingernail polish on my windings and have never had a problem with leaks--except when the cane is poorly shaped or warped and gaps above the top of the staple.
I also don't do the crossover, either, when tying. So you can just discount anything I write as the ravings of a lunatic.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-28 11:22
Okay, now I am curious about the advantages/disadvantages of doing the crossover.
I never questioned why we do one...but why do we do one?
Rachel
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-04-28 12:21
I cannot imagine how to wrap without a crossover - trying to close the blades at the staple tip with a single wrap seems a sure-fire recipe for cracked blanks. There are tricks you can do with heated mandrels, I believe (German wrapping method).
Three or four careful winds towards the top of the staple, gradually adding tension to the thread, and then crossing over and wrapping down at full tension. That's the advantage, right there. I have no idea how I would do that without a crossover.
Mike - enlighten us!!
J.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-28 12:28
I don't apply full tension until all three winds are in place. I use the three winds to position the cane perfectly before applying 'final tension' and crossing over, rather than applying 'gradual' tension with each wind.
So in that case, it wouldn't make any difference whether I started my winds from the end of the staple and travelled downwards, or below the staple and travelled upwards. Interesting.
FWIW, I rarely crack cane when tying.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-04-28 13:53
Try it - you'll see the problem. You can't tighten against the anchor thread if you are winding downwards (assuming your anchor is underneath the wraps).
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-04-28 15:27
I did try it...and you wind up with a 'cross-under' instead of a crossover. I also feel like I have less control over the anchor thread...
Mike, I'd love to hear your thoughts!
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-04-29 08:33
I just do it. That's how James McNeal taught me to do it in Ft. Collins CO, back in 1975. I don't have a lot of cracked blanks. I am known to soak my cane for a bit longer than most folks here (there was a thread on that--people were shocked that I would let it go for an hour), so maybe that's part of it.
There was also a video posted here a while ago (maybe more than a year ago) that showed someone tying without the crossover. Maybe another McNeal student!
Maybe I should set up the camera on a tripod and take a brief video some day.
Mike
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2014-05-13 07:06
I've always done it, was taught to, when I don't the cane splits, no matter how much or little I soak it. I don't like splitting cane, even if it's at the bottom of the reed where 'it'll never matter'.
mary
GoodWinds
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2014-05-15 06:38
Okay, just a logistics question...
For those who do take cane from the end before tying, do you take it off before or after soaking?
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-05-15 12:25
After - well, during, actually.
I work in batches of six or more, gouged-only. Soak all the cane for 15-20 minutes and then take a piece, fold, shape and scrape down the ends (from the inside, natch), and dump it back in the glass. On to the next piece.
I shape ALL the cane that way, and only then do I begin tying on. Most of the cane gets soaked for 30 minutes or more in this manner.
J.
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