 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-03-31 18:44
Please spill me the industry secrets. What can i do to my oboe to:
1. lift the 1st octave G by 20 cents or so without making the low G sharper. The 1st octave G also feels like a black hole, going from any note to it feels like falling into a pit with no resonance and resistance.
2. lift low E by about 15 cents, octave CAN afford to be a little higher.
Just want to know the possibilities before i bring my oboe to a very good oboe maker/technician. I don't have many options and i have to plan very early!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-31 23:35
I remember long ago I had a note that was off, and the tech added some 'fill' (epoxy?) to the affected tone hole, which was a simple fix that took care of everything.
It was a tone hole in the second (lower) joint, however, so did not affect the notes above it.
I don't remember more than that, it was a long time ago.
GoodWinds
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-04-01 00:38
I am not sure what kind of tech you are going to take this issue to. It sounds to me these are issues way over most techs. I know only few I would trust to attempt to fix the issue. If you were in US East coast, I would recommend John Symer. I saw him fix issues like this with filling holes, under cutting, and rimming certain part of the bore and so on. Only techs of his caliber can address such issues, in my opinion. Even if you hear suggestions from amateur kibitzers, that would not translate to having a tech to be able to do any thing about it without risking major screw up.
I recommend going to the manufacturer or find a real oboe expert tech with confirmed track record.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-04-01 00:46
me too. Unless you know someone is specially trained in oboe repair, it's best to avoid 'general' techs, especially for such fine-tuning as you describe.
GoodWinds
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-04-01 05:18
There was a superb article about undercutting in the IDRS Journal:
Great Oboes of the Twentieth Century
The Collaboration of W. Hans Moennig and Marcel Tabuteau
By Shelly Sublett and Alvin Swiney
In this article all sorts of undercutting were discussed, together with the effect on all the octaves. It is an art as much as a science and DEFINITELY not for the faint of heart. Be aware that undercutting will also affect every note below the tone hole in question - you change the volume of air in the oboe, you are going to affect pitch elsewhere, however minutely.
Before you get into this, may I suggest you first get the instrument seen by a technician for general adjustment? In particular, check the seal and fit of the tenon joint, and the height of the first-finger RH touch. The reason is that the G note tone-hole is actually under the RH first finger on the lower joint; a poorly fitting tenon would have most affect here. The RH 1st finger touch is "stopped" by the protruding lug that operates the con-bar to the LH A-Bb and B-C notes. It protrudes, so it could have been bent slightly, affecting the G.
2c,
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-04-01 15:19
Howard,
I had my Marigaux tuned over the first year I played it.
The person that tuned my instrument had expertise on the Marigaux brand; even she recommends John Symer near Philadelphia USA. He's the acoustical "genius".
On my Oboe I had extensive uncutting (A) and some filling in (G) as well as work on other notes ... the result a good scale and improved timbre. Kristin Betrand http://www.woodwindworkshop.com did my work ... NYC. She also modified some key work for me.
In any event you should bring the Oboe to a repair person who has intimate knowledge of the make of your Oboe.
But don't be afraid of tone hole modification. What can be removed and always be put back!
I had some work done on my previous Loree as well by another technician. No problems.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-04-01 17:22
Oops, forgot Howard is a pro!
Howard, you will have checked for the obvious stuff. So sorry.
J.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-04-01 17:37
Correction Cooper, from MALAYSIA. (Singapore is a close neighbor though, haha..and i did my undergrad there) Anyways, all very sound advise, and thank you for that! I know a few names in Taiwan, Japan or Europe that i could go to, but all depends on logistics and economical factors in the next few months. I just learned that the new and improved Buffet Greenline has a smaller bell and the tone holes around G and F# have been repositioned. That is bound to be some hint of what i have to do. Cheers!
Howard
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-04-01 19:31
One thing I like about the Board is that one DOESN'T know who the 'pros' are from the 'amateurs' so the discussion is often lively. But thanks for the reminder Cooper and I hope some of our responses weren't too insulting...
GoodWinds
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-04-01 22:44
In regard to Jeremy's (jhoyla) comments above, isn't it an interesting coincindence, Howard, that you just recently had the center tenon replaced on your oboe (I presume you are talking about your Greenline?). It might be that the break, or this particular repair, in some way has influenced the intonation issues that you are wondering about.
Were you aware of those intonation issues before the tenon broke/was repaired?
Susan
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-04-01 23:36
Harsh? Are you kidding? I seriously appreciate the input of True Professionals on this board. I've not known anyone here to be 'harsh'.
Sometimes the printed word does not convey the tongue-in-cheek or the sincerity (vs cynical) tone very well.
GoodWinds
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Author: OboeCraig
Date: 2012-04-02 01:59
To Susan's point... what recently changed is a very important question.
I state this from an oboe and a software engineering POV. People will swear nothing changed... and then gradually confess to major changes.
Not pointing at Howard on this point. It is a really common problem.
Different staple, shape, gouge, any oboe repair, cane source, etc. They are prime suspects.
My first question to Howard is, has the sagging 2nd octave G become a gradual or a sudden problem?
2nd question is, do those same reeds exhibit the same problems on other oboes?
I do know gradual change, and even 1st octave Vs. 2nd octave differences can be found due to gradual grime building up in other (lower) keys.
Also, some cane scraping can cause 2nd octave flatness, certainly in American long-scrapes. But you do not play those, right?
And at the heart of the matter, the LH joint does not change to play low G Vs. 2nd octave G except for the octave key. If it is right in one octave and not the other, I'd suspect the reed 1st, then gunk in the lower keys below the f# RH key.
Try this... play the f# and the g in 2nd octave and also depress the low b key.
Just try it, and see what difference it makes.
Post Edited (2012-04-02 02:01)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-04-03 10:24
I have had this problem for ages, but for some reason it became more and more apparent especially when i had to play on a Loree Royal for a couple of months after the tenon broke. The low B changes the G, that's for sure, and i very often use it as a standard fingering with Octave F-G. Assuming i played a long scrape reed that was mediocre, what could have caused the fall of the 2nd octave and what can i do to improve that reed?
Regards,
Howard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-04-03 12:36
Howard,
I had an octave G that stuck out somewhat ... it had a slightly different timbre from the other notes and was sharp. Tuning the Oboe solved the problem.
Mark
Have you played on other instruments besides the Royale?
PS: As per Craig and others in the discussion ... I also agree that a poor (maybe unconscious) habit or reed can also be a culprit. I found this true of other problems I have experienced learning the Oboe. This was true of the Octave A ... used to pull the Oboe closer without realizing the movement as I went up the scale with the result of a sharper upper register! Also some reed adjustments were crucial in pitch stability and not playing sharp.
So it takes lots of time to figure these things out. I am sure you will solve the problem with time and persistence. You are a wonderful Oboist.
Good Luck.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-04-04 06:25
Just a quick response to Craig's assumption that good tuning on one octave of the instrument implies good tuning at other octaves (Craig if I misunderstood you, apologies in advance).
The article I referred to above talks about the effects of undercutting. Undercutting the tone-holes can affect the tuning of one octave while leaving the tuning of the other octave unaffected. The article is light on science but very heavy on Alvin Swiney's experience as an instrument maker. Fascinating reading.
Regarding the fit of the tenon joint, it seemed to me that a change to the internal volume of air but not to the length of air-column was probably more akin to undercutting than anything else.
Quote:
Another feature of the oboe is the point of
equalization. It is usually located just above the Gsharp
tone hole. The point of equalization is where
the wall thickness and bore diameter are equal. If
the bore is enlarged above the point of equaliza-
tion, the pitch level of the adjacent notes will
become sharper. If the bore size is decreased
above the point of equalization, the pitch level of
the adjacent notes will become flatter. Below the
point of equalization, the rules are reversed.
Enlarging the bore below the point of equalization
will make the adjacent notes play flatter.
Decreasing the bore below the point of
equalization will make the notes play sharper.
In order to select a tone hole design profile, the
pitch, timbre, and octave relationship must be
analyzed as well as the overtone partials. If we
have an oboe that is stuffy below the point of
equalization, we can increase the undercutting by
using an acute tool with a 40% penetration rate.
(Figure 5) This will free up the given note without
changing its pitch. If we have a note below the
point of equalization that is flat, we can use the
acute tool with more penetration. This will raise
the pitch of the lower octave without changing the
pitch of the upper octave.
Hope this clarifies,
J.
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Author: OboeCraig
Date: 2012-04-05 00:42
No apologies needed. That is great info. There is always more to learn, and little things really can mean a lot. All I can say based on personal experience, is of the 4 pro level oboes I've played at length and all my teacher's and friend's oboes I've tried, g octaves were never a problem. Not even on the Benwal I played in HS.
I thought I had that problem on english horn, and my last teacher convinced me the octave g and f# are a great test for reed integrity. And that it also applies to oboe.
I must admit, once I get those in balance for a given reed, many things fall right into place.
And I did have Paul Covey reform my F pitch on my first Covey to raise it a bit to be more like my Loree's F, so reeds would suit both instruments. I wish I'd had a thorough conversation about the things you detail, but, alas.
And a long time ago I did get into reed experiments where 2nd octave pitch did suffer quite a bit. I should probably detail the insanity of some of those things some day.
All in all, if its a creeping (gradual) problem, I 'd still suspect reeds or gunk before the oboe. And I'd cross-check the same reeds on other oboes for sure.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-04-05 14:00
Today i tried the same reeds on a friend's Marigaux. No such problems! In fact the Gs were really sky high because how i have been accustomed to the faulty G on my Buffet. Tough luck! BUT, Buffet's China representative has finally replied to my e-mail, the first email reply from Buffet since my tenon breaking incident 6 months ago.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: OboeCraig
Date: 2012-04-05 17:27
Good luck with it. I am sure a good technician will find a solution.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-04-12 00:53
Please do persist, alchemist!
The board rules are there for good reasons, and are part of why this board has continued for years to be a good place for exchange of ideas and information, without commercial co-optation.
I am glad that you want to join the conversation!
Susan
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