 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: RuthC
Date: 2012-02-26 22:55
Attachment: FLoreeEH.JPG (62k)
Hi all-
Wondering if someone can provide guidance on the age of a "vintage" F.Loree english horn. The serial number is either CC73 or GG73. Looking at the Lars Kirmser reference table, I assume (!) that the horn dates between 1910 (AA) and 1929 (AB) but I'm wondering if anyone can narrow it down any more?
The key work is conservatory. Open holes under LH "A" key and RH "D" key. It has a forked "F" resonance key but no left '"F". (picture attached)
This instrument is owned by the local youth orchestra. It actually plays fairly well and it certainly is light weight without all the modern day key work! :o) It has a massive crack in the top joint through both octave holes, but was pinned and putty-ed together successfully (many years ago).
Thanks!!
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2012-02-27 05:19
Likely 1912 if CC, or circa 1915 if GG.
My own personal EH is Loree Z60 made in 1910.
I rarely come across other English horns I surmise to be on a par with Loree Z60.
A "thin wall" instrument- it resonates (and projects) "like crazy."
Another possibility, is that you may have one of the early Loree
English horns made from "Palissander." "Pallissander" is not a South American Rosewood. "Palissander" is in fact "Madagascar Rosewood," Dalbergia Baronii.
It is much lighter in weight that African Blackwood, grenadilla.
I have a Loree Palissander English horn (#R32, c. 1902).
The Palissander instrument has a sound that has even more complexity of color than my beloved grenadilla #Z60.
A left hand F key can be added to you instrument for about $500.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-02-27 10:20
$500????????? To add a left F key?...?...
I have never understood nor could i start to understand the economics behind this whole instrument making business...
Howard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-02-27 10:40
Peter, why did instrument makers stop making thin wall instruments?
Does anyone know the basic measurements of wall thicknesses and bore sizes for the major oboe makers?
i.e. Loree thick wall, bigger bore.
i.e. Marigaux thick wall, smaller bore?
What a nerdy question, but then...what else is this board for?
Howard
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-02-27 13:00
I have slight suspicion that American style oboe playing may have something to do with it. America is the largest market to make money from in the eyes of the manufacturers. Americans wants "dark" tone. The darker the better liked.
Think wall promotes darker tone. The days of Leo Goossens and Holliger appear to have gone when a bright sweet fruity sound were the standard oboe tone. And wide range of articulation and dynamic range were deemed necessary to make music with oboe. Today's orchestras do not seem to demand such musical requirements from oboe. Beautiful dark tone and beautiful dark tone appear to get you somewhere in America. If you have fingers on top of that, you've got it made.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-02-27 13:19
In the early '90s I had an ancient Loree ring key cor in rosewood with automatic 8ves, but it had been mucked around with - converted from conservatoire to pure thumbplate system (would've been much simpler making it dual system), various toneholes bushed, the A vent was removed, the body was lacquered, etc. While the tone was nice and it projected well, the tuning was dire and I had enough of it sold it on.
Then in the late '90s when I bought my Marigaux cor and started playing cor in local orchestras, one of the oboists in one orchestra had an old rosewood Loree cor just like my old one, but this one was still as it should be (and had a thumbplate added to make it dual system). In comparison to my Marigaux in terms of weight, the old Loree was as light as a feather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-02-27 19:15
My first good oboe was Lorée GG38, made in 1915 or just prior for Addimondo, the principal oboist of the newly formed San Francisco Symphony...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-27 20:38
on a very amateur, personal note, I find that my desire to add 'color' and 'warmth' to my tone sometimes gets surprised responses from American-schooled oboists. Perhaps it has something to do with living overseas...
I find that my best reeds have much more dynamic range than even professionally-made ones.
I like different tone qualities depending on the composer/piece, and I too am 'stymied' by the country-wide preference for 'dark'.
It's as if you're not considered 'there' or 'advanced' unless you have a particular sound. But it's working for me; the oboe, of all instruments, gives such room for VARIATION.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-27 20:42
I purchased a used Fossati Cor a few years ago, and one of the factors was its weight: it was so 'feminine' compared to other's I've played, and I don't need a neck strap to use it. I'm pretty sure it's grenadilla but it's as nice an EH as I ever hope to own.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-28 00:10
How old would you say your Fossati E.H. is? Regards, Loree BF51
R. Still former student
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-28 00:47
I'll try to look it up, I'm guessing maybe 6-12 years old.
GoodWinds
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2012-02-28 01:53
"Thin wall" versus "thick wall"-
I am not at all sure why oboe instruments went from "thin wall" to thick wall."
The "pre war" Loree instruments can be categorized as "thin wall"
with some slight variation. The "post war" Loree instruments can mostly be categorized as "thick wall." Some speculate that it was simply an increasing preference for an element of darkness in the sound that influenced Loree (and others) to increase the wall thickness. In the late 1960s, oboists seemed to be almost fanatical about achieving the "darkest' sound possible.
The Kreul/Gordet oboes (the "heavy pattern") and Kreul/Gordet English horns became exceedingly popular in the late 1960s, as they for sure had the "darkest" sound on the block. Loree even made a run of "heavy wall" oboes right around the BV-BY series.
A friend of mine has a heavy pattern Loree BV oboe, and it is almost as dark sounding as the Kreul /Gordet. I do have Loree oboes from as early as 1912, 1920s, that although "thin wall," still seem do not at all overly "bright" at all. And my "thin wall" English horn from 1910 I do not find "bright" at all.
The oboe with the thinnest wall (wins the grand prize) would likely be a Marcel Loree oboe. Truly thin wall thickness, and nothing but bright sounding. The new Howarth model S6 is one of the few post war oboes having "thin wall" construction. Excellent instrument, though it is decidedly on the bright side. If you have an oboe or English horn with very heavy wall construction, it is possible that your sound can be unrelentingly "dark." This can put your playing "in a box" with no escape. To me, an oboe, an oboe d'amore or English horn should have elements of both bright or dark.
Some have argued that one influence in the increase in oboe instrument wall thickness may simply have been related to expediency in manufacture.
For instance, with a heavier wall thickness, the maker has more depth to set the posts. With a thick wall, less worry about about whether the drilling for a post would go through into the bore.
Heckel bassoons also went through a transformation from thin wall in the early 1900s to the modern thick wall. Heckelphones also went through a transformation of wall thickness, though lagging behind the evolution of wall thickness in the bassoon. "Thin wall " Heckelphones were made c. 1905-1923. "medium wall" from about 1923- early 1950s, and "heavy wall" from the 1950s to present. It is not uncommon to find "thin wall" Heckelphones that have a bunch of post screw ends visible inside the bore, even past the bore surace by a couple of millimeters. The "thin wall" Heckelphones (like the "thin wall" Loree English horns) resonate "like crazy." The medium wall
Heckelphones resonate "heaps," though not to the extent of the "thin wall" instruments. The modern "thick wall' Heckelphones, though excellent, do not have the "wild factor" like the prewar instruments- more of a "blending" sound.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-02-28 03:33
Interesting thread. I had never thought about the practical manufacturing benefits of thicker walled instruments.
I think during the 'formative period' of the American school, the 1st generation post Tabuteau, the concept of dark was really more of a contrast to the very bright French and Eastern European sounds. Regional styles were quite different back in the 50's, not as homogenized as they are today. I think the 'darkest' players back then were the Germans. Tabuteau, Bloom, Andelucci, deLancie, even the Gombergs, all had a bright edge on their sound, but it was darker than the relatively bright French sound. Someone once described the American sound to me as "A bright central star surrounded by a halo of junk". I think that over the years the halo of junk has tended to overcome the bright central star, but it never existed in the French school...
Thicker walled instruments are darker than thin walled ones, but I'm not convinced that a thick-walled horn would put you in a box, though. Build the tip a smidge longer and/or thinner to get that edge in the sound and you're good...
Goodwinds - you are right about your best reeds exceeding the qualities of pro reed makers' efforts. They can't tailor a reed to your specific needs and have to crank a lot of reeds out to make a living. I have met very few commercial reeds that I would play as happily as my own. Which is not to denigrate their efforts. It's just that I know more about what I want than they do...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-28 03:56
No, it certainly does NOT denigrate their efforts!!! I admire Greatly anyone who can make a reed for someone else... I usually pass along my 'decent' and 'good' reeds to my students or adjust the ones they've bought elsewhere. It would be so hard to make a reed for someone you didn't know...
For me, it's kinda like knitting...
Anyone who can make a living carving/shaving/building or otherwise crafting oboe reeds is just short of Genius. And I assume that their reeds sound Perfect or Fantastic when they play them. And you ones who've sold reeds to me: THANKS for all the tips (no pun intended) and modeling you've done for me.
GoodWinds
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2012-02-28 07:36
When my friend Anne Krabill first played for Goossens, he remarked:
"Ah yes, the American 'dark brown' tone"...
R. Angelucci played a Gordet for at least some of his career - I believe it may have been the heavy Kreul/Gordet model...
Warren Sutherland played Chauvet BW series oboes much of his career.
One of the heaviest and "darkest" of the French instruments,
similar in sound to the heavy pattern late B series Loree oboes.
Oboes.us
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-02-28 12:51
Biggest names in history like Goossens and Holliger used and still uses bought reeds most of their professional lives. I am pretty sure they adjust a little to fit their own liking, weather conditions, and so on...
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-02-28 20:33
Peter - Your 'dark, brown sound' reminds me of a conversation I had with Howarth's Nigel Clark at an IDRS conference. We were discussing regional sounds and he remarked, vis-a-vis the American sound, "But we don't subscribe to the cult of personality," In a way, I think he's right. I know it took me a long time to get past the 'right' and 'wrong' sound concept...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2012-02-28 20:53
What I like so much about oboe playing is that not everyone sounds the same.
Just one factor is that every player has his or her own "personal resonance"
based on physiology. I once spent some time coaching a inner city teenage student, who weighed 400+ pounds, was playing an ancient school owned Malerne oboe in absolutely dreadful condition, and was using exceedingly run of the mill commercial reeds. Her sound was ethereal.
I do know of one oboe teacher/professor who insists that all of his students sound exactly the same as he does. If the student's tone falls short of his expectations, he will simply demand that the student "fix it."
One of my all time favorite oboe recordings is the Frantisek Hantak recording of the
Martinu Oboe Concerto. Amazingly "bright" and "reedy" ("nasal") sound to American ears, though the recording in my estimation a transcendent musical statement in every respect.
Cheers,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-02-28 21:16
I've been enjoying this thread greatly. So many thoughtful comments! Thank you for all the stimulating reading.
I feel that the relatively homogenous American sound stems in part from the fact that the oboe is considered primarily an orchestral instrument -- that is, a single color among many. An orchestral player doesn't need as much flexibility of color as does a soloist who's trying to sustain the audience's interest -- basically alone -- for an hour. I'm hard-pressed to name any American wind soloists who are "household names" (but I hope that I'm wrong and that you'll correct me). In my opinion, the tradition of solo wind playing in Europe encourages the development of a more individual sound, and one that contains a lot more range of color. That doesn't make it more beautiful, by any means, than the "dark brown" discussed above. I myself have been struggling with the right balance, not wanting to leave behind the American aesthetic but needing more range of color. This may mean going outside the range of acceptability for some, but in principle we all have the freedom to find our own home on the spectrum.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 00:09
There is/are a few points that I disagree with you on, but first it should be clarified that, “prewar/postwar” refers to WWII, not WWI. I believe the trend toward a darker sound can be traced back to the creation by Marcel Tabuteau of the “full scrape – American style” reed, sometime between his arrival in the U.S. in 1905 and probably at the most by 1920, after he had been in the Philadelphia Orchestra for about 5 years. I have never seen the actual date in print, so if someone does know the date, would they please tell us! I think that he probably started asking Loree, if they could produce an oboe that would compliment his new reed type, rather than compensate for its more subdued vibrational characteristics. The fact that the Academy of Music’s hall was fairly dry sounding, may also have had an influence on this situation.
The Loree BF51 oboe that I had bought new in ’62 was noticeably heavier than the BB20 I had a few years before. While I’m not sure if it was “darker” or not, it was, much smoother. Instead of it being “...unrelentingly darker…” and being “…in a box…”, I felt just the opposite, as I was able to use a more freely, blowing reed without the middle G# and B-natural sounding raspy. Wouldn’t we all rather play on a more freely-blowing reed vs. a more resistant reed, given (giving) the same volume of sound? Also, I would think that many first Flutists would have welcomed this trend, as they wouldn’t have to worry nearly as much, about being covered over, when they had to play in unison (La Mer!) or in duet with the first oboe. Robert Bloom wrote an article advocating either a darker and/or a more flexible sound that was reprinted in the “Woodwind Anthology“ book. Regarding this, he mentions a request from Stokowski for a “Floboe” from Mr. Baker and himself. Another reference would be Mr. Eugene Izotov’s comments on his website, regarding the sonic quality of one of the shaper tips he uses. Respectfully yours (I hope!)
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 00:37
I agree with almost everything you say, but regarding the player list you give, I would put Tabuteau, deLancie, and Harold Gomberg in a "darker list", as I find their sounds to be noticeably darker, than the others, at least to my ears. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 00:59
While I'm sure you know what you've said to be the truth, it seems really incredible that, that would be the case. Unless, of course, you compare their sounds to deLancie, Lifschey, and Still, and then it should be obvious, that at the very least, one should shape their own cane from "gouged-only" cane, if not gouging their own, and then, making their reeds, all by themselves! Sorry, but just needed to say this. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-02-29 01:23
I can see that one must be sensitive to gauging details to be a good oboe player, in your mind. I can also see that you indeed are a R. Still student. Not all students of R. Still I met have mind as open as you have.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-29 04:23
I would characterize H Gomberg's sound as more 'warm' than 'dark';
the word 'smooth' comes to mind. But I've only heard one album so what do I know?
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 22:20
Thank you for the respectful your comments. As I began to think more about this, I can understand that in a situation like Holliger's, where he is/was traveling a lot and not having nearly as much time as others have, that he would find an "alternate" source of reeds. Therefore, I could understand that if one found someone who would use the cane, gouge, and shape that one wanted, they would be tempted to have them take the reeds to a "B" crow, and then the player would finish them from there. Beyond that, I would be very weary of playing on almost finished/finished reeds done by somebody else, if for no other reason than Germ transfer problems. In the case of Goosens, the vibrato puts me off so much, I just wouldn't want to be subject to his opinions. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 22:50
You stated your feeling honestly and I respect that. I have most, if not all, of his recordings, but they're in storage right now. So, I'll have to work from memory citing 3 of those recordings. The first one, a Decca (American) had the Telemann e- minor partita and it was quite good. On the other side may have been the Britten Phantasy and wherever it is, it was very good, too. Then, #2 is the Columbia recording with the 2 Loeffler Rhaspsodies and the Hindmith Sonata. These were also good, but the sound was not quite as refined as in #1. BTW, the Loeffler recording is right above this topic on OboeBB and has a link to youtube. However, the sound I heard on my laptop is not an accurate representation of whats on the original record-no way! I will hook my laptop at home to my stereo system and recheck this. Then, thirdly, there was the record called "The Baroque Oboe" with the Vivaldi d-minor concerto and I just can't remember what else. Here, his playing had changed greatly and unfortuately,was not very flattering. When you watched him in later N.Y Philharmonic TV concerts, you could see his head shaking while playing. In one of the Midwestern orchestras (not Chicago) the first oboist had a second that had been a student of Gomberg's at Juilliard and the first told me that the closest, x(x)e could get the second's reeds to pitch, was a 1/4 tone flat, using a vise-like embouchure. This might explain why his head shook so much. He may have recorded the Briiten Phantasy, a second time and I'm investigating that now. Thanks again for your comments.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-29 23:24
To better understand what is being said here, it would really help a lot to know what is meant by the sentence, " We don't subscribe to the cult of personality"? I hope I've quoted that correctly, as I can't see the posting on the screen now. This statement could be taken at least, two different ways, so is it possible to tell what he meant, exactly? Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-01 00:55
I should have added Robert Bloom to my list, as well as the word "own" to "...make their "own" reeds." I can't see the original text, but I hope I got it right. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-03-01 00:57
Loree BF51 wrote:
> I can't see the
> original text
>
Why not? All the posts are here and your own posts ar editable.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-01 02:15
Mark,
I'm sorry, but this is a technical misunderstanding. What I meant was that when I was doing the reply, that the original posting was not visible on the screen, so I couldn't see it, to check if I got the quote's wording right. I wasn't complaining, but rather, I just wanted to find out what was meant by this quote by the gentleman from Howarth's.
On our school's wifi system, we get really weird results when we move between pages within the same website and that becomes really frustrating, when I get get disconnected from the website. Thank you for your concern. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-01 04:39
Switch to flat view and you'll be able to see all the replies.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-03-01 17:53
I've read all of the answers and responses up to this point, and while I think there's some good points, I would respectfully like to add my opinion.
Quote:
I think that he probably started asking Loree, if they could produce an oboe that would compliment his new reed type, rather than compensate for its more subdued vibrational characteristics. The fact that the Academy of Music’s hall was fairly dry sounding, may also have had an influence on this situation.
I find this statement difficult to accept. I've studied with plenty of students of the Philadelphia school, who are very conservative and subscribe (sometimes blindly) to everything Tabuteau taught, and not once have I ever been told or taught to find a way to subdue vibrational characteristics. The emphasis has always been placed on more vibrations, specifically to gain, overtones, color, and focus for projection. This includes reeds and reeds.
Regarding the date Tabuteau joined the Philadelphia Orchestra, it was 1915.
The Academy of Music's hall was originally built as an opera house, and has strange acoustics indeed because of the high ceiling, and short stage. (The stage itself was slightly angled, and one could drop a pencil from the brass and it would roll to the violins.) David Weber told me while playing on stage, it always felt like there was a layer of ether you were pushing your sound against, and that your sound didn't get past 10 feet of the bell of your instrument. I have speculated for many years that this is the reason why the Philadelphia sound was more directed toward purity and overtones to "cut" through this effect, rather than sheer dull volume. (On another note, Severance Hall has an opposite effect that takes a bunch of sound and filters it into a more pure tone. Mack had all sorts of buzz in his sound up close, but when on stage, it all got stripped away into the thick fat sound we characteristically have come to love. Mark Charette, the board administrator once mentioned that Frank Cohen had the same effect on clarinet.)
Quote:
The Loree BF51 oboe that I had bought new in ’62 was noticeably heavier than the BB20 I had a few years before. While I’m not sure if it was “darker” or not, it was, much smoother. Instead of it being “...unrelentingly darker…” and being “…in a box…”, I felt just the opposite, as I was able to use a more freely, blowing reed without the middle G# and B-natural sounding raspy. Wouldn’t we all rather play on a more freely-blowing reed vs. a more resistant reed, given (giving) the same volume of sound? Also, I would think that many first Flutists would have welcomed this trend, as they wouldn’t have to worry nearly as much, about being covered over, when they had to play in unison (La Mer!) or in duet with the first oboe...
I'm not sure you can use the "B series" as an accurate marker of the progression of Loree oboes, and an indicator of the trends demanded by professional oboists of the time. For one, timeline of the B series indicates that most of the series was Tabuteau was in the spot light of influencing the evolution of Loree. There seems to be much experimentation during this period as Peter Hurd would attest to. I've played early numbers that were as thick as anything I've ever played, and I've played late models that were as thick as anything. I've also played early models that were quite thinwall, and I've played late models that were also very thinwall. I've played some glorious B series, and some piece of crap B series. Also during this time, de Lancie was in discussions with Loree which led them to release a "de Lancie" model oboe, and later a "Special model" oboe (same bore as the de lancie model, but for reasons undiscussed they didn't want to use his name.)
As to the dark alternatives, there were plenty of other opportunities that Tabuteau had in terms of the instruments (Gordet), and there were plenty of other "darker players" such as Henri De Busscher that could have been strived for, but it was Tabuteau's more flexible, lively sound that was desired.
If one is really interested in this topic, I'd like to encourage them to go back and listen to this CD, which has a lot of history, and offers quite a bit of insight particularly in the playing of many of those early oboists.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013UZC4U/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1330626600&sr=1-1-catcorr
I'd also like to encourage you to re-read chapter 6 from Laila Storch's Tabuteau book, discussing the appointment of Tabuteau to the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Anyways, just my two cents. Sorry for the diatribe.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-01 19:02
an abundance of helpful information is hardly a 'diatribe', Cooper.
In sum, REEDS are an important (vital) factor in ANY instrument's sound, and there is much room for variability for oboists.
Am I being too simplistic? If yes, it's because I lack your expertise; if no, then let us all keep enjoying the mysteries and science of the Oboe!
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-03-01 20:53
Don -
With regard to Nigel Clark's comment, he was referring to the fact that the whole, large American school derives almost entirely from Tabuteau and, even given the diversity of sound within that school, players have more similarity than diversity - certainly the first generation players and to a great degree the second generation.
By now the homogenization of musical styles worldwide has blurred the once sharp edges of regional styles and although there is a greater diversity within the American school, the basic 'Philadelphia School' playing style is still predominant here.
Ray Still was the only player of importance in this country to fall outside the Philadelphia School (or 'cult of personality') during the '50s, '60s and '70s that I can think of. If that's not true then clearly I, too, am a victim of the cult of personality :-)
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-03-01 21:19
OK, I THINK I know what constitutes the Philadephia school of oboe playing, but for my sake and the sake of others who are not quite so conversant on this topic, could someone (like Cooper?) expand a little on what makes Philly-style Philly-style? Pretty please?
Susan
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-01 21:52
On the contrary I welcome your input! Just let me clarify a little bit, about what I said: what I meant by "subdued vibrational characteristics" was in comparison to the French, short cut scrape, which I feel is a whole lot more buzzy than the average, American scrape.
Because I didn't know when Tabuteau introduced his long scrape style, I purposely gave him a period of 5 years in the Philadelphia Orchestra, to have possibly brought out his new style during that time. On the other hand he might have done it while he was in the Met orchestra playing for Toscanini, or even before that. I just don't know, but I sure would like to know!
When I was at the U. of I., I played on an oboe that was sent to Ledet by Tabuteau and I would say it probably was lighter, but because it didn't have the side F key, I was virtually paralyzed! I remember hearing about the "deLancie" model and that all of them had side F keys and the low register reponse had been improved (is that accurate?).
When the Cleveland Orchestra played in Chicago, sometime in the '60's, 3 or 4 of us from Civic, went to the concerts and we all agreed that Mack's tone was so dark, that we had trouble making out the notes! However, we tried to avoid being hypercritical, because we were old enough to realize he wouldn't have been familiar with Orchestra Hall and he had the job and we didn't!
Thinking about the Philadelphia Orchestra, I wouldn't be surprised if Stokowski might have had considerable influence on Tabuteau's tonal development. I will try to look at the references you listed. Thanks again.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-01 22:11
Thanks so much for the clarification of that statement. The rest of what you said is also very helpful. I remember that the late Warren Benfield, the won-derful string Bass player in Philadelphia and then Chicago, told me of a conversation he had with some colleagues (not necessarily in Chicago or about Chicago) and there was a consensus that Tabuteau was a "personality player". I didn't ask him exactly what was meant by that, though. Maybe, someone else would like to comment on that. Thanks again.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-01 22:29
Is Chauvet still in business? They must be/have been a pretty small company. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-03-02 00:12
" ...I wouldn't be surprised if Stokowski might have had considerable influence on Tabuteau's tonal development."
The way my teacher, Raymond Dusté, told the story, Stokowski's concept of orchestral sound was one of blend and homogeneity, like an organ, (think of all those Bach arrangements...) rather than the European model of distinctive instrumental sounds. He was continually after Tabuteau to get the edge out of his sound. Tabuteau messed with reeds, developing the long-scrape to satisfy Stokowski's requirements.
Dusté studied with Tabuteau while stationed in Philadelphia during WWII.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-02 01:57
Thank you so much for this info. It would appear then, that I'm close in assuming that the "long-scrape" reed made its debut between 1915 and 1920. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-03-02 03:49
I just dug out my Tabuteau Excerpts with Stokowski CD (Boston Records 1021CD). The earliest excerpts are two bits of the Firebird, recorded acoustically in 1924. He's already got that characteristic sound - and style, portemento and all, even then, so I guess your estimate is right on the money.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2012-03-02 07:57
The Chauvet brothers both worked for Loree, perhaps in the 1930s-1940s?
After the WWII, perhaps in the early-mid 1950s(?), the brothers set up their
own oboe making atelier in Paris. Al Laubin imported and Chauvet instruments in the early-mid 195os. The serial numbers for the Laubin imported Chauvet instrument had only numbers, no letters. One of the Chauvet brothers worked for a while for Al Laubin as a key maker. Alleged to be one of the fastest key makers in the business. Ben Storch took over the importation of Chauvet instrument perhaps circa 1956 or 1957(?). Ben fettled/voiced semi-finished Chauvet instruments to his liking. All of Ben's Chauvet instruments have serial numbers beginning with BW. The most desirable Storch/Chauvet instruments tend to be in the BW100-BW300. Chauvet oboe BW144 is one of the most amazing oboes I have ever played, though even a "name your price" offer did not shake this one loose.
The BW Storch Chauvet was known (or renowned) as about the darkest sounding oboe made in France at the time. Ben dropped the importation of Chauvet instruments circa 1964 or 1965- not exactly sure why. The Chauvet instruments made after 1965 have serial numbers beginning with "AC." All post 1965 instruments were finished at the factory in Paris.
The "AC" oboes all seem "lighter" (and "brighter") than the Storch BW series.
Good oboes, though for sure not as sought after as the BW instruments.
Many, even most, of the AC series English horns, will be as good as BW series
English horns. Both the BW and the AC Chauvet English horns- highly desirable. As far as I know, Chauvet did not make an oboe d'amore.
The Chauvet company ceased production in the mid 1970s, perhaps about 1977.
Oboes.us
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2012-03-02 18:28
"Ray Still was the only player of importance in this country to fall outside the Philadelphia School (or 'cult of personality') during the '50s, '60s and '70s that I can think of. If that's not true then clearly I, too, am a victim of the cult of personality :-)"
But he did study with Robert Bloom for two years, according to the bio on his eponymous website. Almost impossible to escape the Philly School in the USA, for better or worse! My teacher was a student of Fernand Gillet at NEC, but he played on and taught me to scrape long-scrape reeds (though he gave some credit for the development of long scrape reeds to the Dutch school of oboe playing!). Obviously, he didn't learn to make reeds from M. Gillet, since Gillet did not make his own! Tangled web.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-03 14:49
Thanks for your comment and info. I'm going to ask Mark Charette if we can "break out" and/or archive some of this terrific discussion, at least in a thread, entitled something like: The American School of oboe playing; Past Present, and Future. Just 3' away from me (Dahhhhh!) is the Bell Labs, "Bell System American Orchestras on Tour" record, c. 1979, which features the Philadelphia Orchestra under Stokokoski in "Wide Range and Stereo Recordings...1931-1832". Music is Berlioz-Roman Carnival (could Bloom be the E.H. player?!), VonWeber-Invitation to the Dance, Mendelssohn-M.N.D. Scherzo, Liebestod from T&I, Scriabin-Poem of Fire, and some sections from Mossorgsky-Pictures.
I think I'll start a new thread with some opening comments to get the ball rolling. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-03-03 19:54
Hey, Don -
email me privately - I've got some thoughts I don't want to clutter the List with...
- Bob
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: oboist2
Date: 2013-06-24 23:13
Interesting you like the Hantak recording. SO do I, yet it was written for one of my teachers Jiri Tancibudek who studied with Hantak at some stage, and he disliked Hantaks playing of this piece, and his playing in general, describing him as a "barber" - snip snip snip like cutting hair. I have records of both Hantak and Tancibudek and many others playing this work, and have to say that Hantak is still one of my favourites. Like you, I think there is room in this world for all types of sound, whether bright or dark or a mixture of both. Playing has become a bit too standardised and sanitised, and I think we have lost a lot of individuality and excitement that many earlier artists could give. On saying that, it is not to take away the respect I hold many of today's great oboists.
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The Clarinet Pages
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