 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-02-04 14:38
Other than a larger diameter, what other factor can result in a closer reed?
How do i induce a reed to collapse? For any scrape really!
How about making a reed super open and vice versa?
Regards,
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-02-04 15:32
Howard, you are asking one doozie of a question!
- A : cane factors -
* You already mentioned diameter (or I prefer to compare the arc).
* The gouge can influence the springy qualities: thinner sides provide less resistance: hence why it is so important for short scrape.
* Flatness of cane: see pictures on my blog http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.com/2011/03/pre-gouging-and-tooth-yanking.html
- chances are, I "inherited" from a stock of cane my predecessors simply rejected
- flat is best, but if the middle curves out, away from the gouger bed, then you'll have very open reeds: I have a number of these reeds that actually play really well, once you warm-them up! Sometimes, these open reed keep their elliptical opening (good), sometimes they flatten-up (trash).
- the opposite is murder, regardless of scraping technique, the reed will choke and refuse to respond: the longer you play in one session, the worse it gets
* Grain qualities: soft cane will loose its bounce faster than hard cane. Young "soapy" cane (if you can get it to vibrate) will also resist compaction better.
- B : hardware factors -
1.
Wire: others have much more experience and are better qualified to elaborate than I.
2.
Staples: opening AND conicity. Search this BBoard, because observed effects can be surprizing. Also, conicity (or flaring) is what makes the difference between Chiarugi, Gerico, Stevens and so on.
3.
Binding short vs. long. Here too, others will have to comment as I have not systematically put down any principles: the complexities of geometry and pivot-points could lead to surprising results.
- C : scraping factors -
Two ways:
1.
This is where I depart from standard-European to get a "hybrid" with Philly style.
My teacher taught me how to use the very tip of the knife to put in what might look like American "windows", but are just a removal of the bark almost all the way back. The purpose is explicitly to close the reed.
I don't have any pictures of those anywhere, but close to that would be the narrow wired reed (blue thread) at http://www.flickr.com/photos/marjan_tropper/6160971184/sizes/z/in/photostream/, except the gullies continue to about 1mm near the thread. A better depiction is sketch [6](A) in http://robin-hautbois.users.sourceforge.net/anches/index.html. Using thicker cane (0.60-2mm) with a gouge of thicker sides, [6](A) is usually how mine end up concert-grade.
2.
Sometimes, this is not enough. That's when scraping no more than the bark from the gullies is important, because I start reducing ALL the bark gradually, all the way to the thread. I have had excellent reeds with no bark at all (technique taught by Stewart Grant: soloist, composer and oboe teacher in Lethbridge, Alberta). You reduce the sides OR the centre line first depending on sound and performance characteristics..... I have not yet found any guiding principles for this other than experience.
See the reed bound in purple thread with 2 grey bands http://www.flickr.com/photos/marjan_tropper/6160970382/sizes/z/in/photostream/ .... but this reed has an ulterior motive: experiment with "buzzaphone" reed making.
Best of luck and keep us abreast!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2012-02-04 15:42)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2012-02-04 21:08
Wow, Robin, I need to keep that on file!
If the reed is open but flexible to an extent, I find I can train it closed by soaking in warm water, then putting a flat plaque between the blades, I gently squeeze from the bottom of the scrape up to the tip several times. Do this before and after playing the reed, and eventually it seems to dry flatter.
Wire helps control the opening of the reed, generally used to hold the reed open, but with careful use of pliers, can be used to hold the reed closed (I find I used to have to manipulate K.Ge euro scrape reeds this way - they often arrived way too open!)
Interesting thread - we often rue about stopping reeds collapsing, but sometimes, you need to know how to do just the opposite.
Rachel
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-02-05 05:14
Perhaps I do not understand your query, but to close reeds down that are too open when made, I simply let them dry in a paper clip. It helps to bend the clip a little with long nose pliers but reeds treated this way tend to close down. Good luck!
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-02-05 05:48
I usually squeeze SLOWLY and GENTLY starting at the blend/heart area and moving down the reed to the bottom of the scrape: less reeds split when I do it this way.
With enough playing and a little less soaking, they usually settle down in a few days.
Robin seems to have covered many of the factors in detail...
For me, over-soaking is the only real culprit, easily remedied by the above.
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-02-05 14:07
Thanks GoodWinds!
Wes (at 2012-02-05 05:14) mentioned using a paper clip and you seem to fear reeds splitting.
I remember reeds splitting like this in the past, but it is no longer a problem. I DON'T KNOW IF it is because:
1. Alliaud vs. Rigotti?
2. my cane is much older: young, yellow/green, harder "soapy" cane can split more
3. my scrape is shorter than it used to be:
=> possibly, the differential between windows and hump (or even center line with bark and gullies) might cause an extra strain
4. I soak them more:
=> contrary to many other comments in the whole BBoard, I don't think it's possible to over-soak a reed. If I forget it for 2 days:
* yes it gets way too open
* yes it plays too hard for a while
but then I just let it dry a little and flatten it: no harm, no foul.
The way I flatten is by pinching the tip and rolling the pinch towards the back with a back-and-forth motion. But I can end-up squeezing the heart rather tightly and without a plaque at all.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-02-06 06:14
@Robin,
Yes, you CAN squeeze a reed without a plaque - if you have large, flat fingers and reeds that are perfectly balanced. If the reed blades are uneven you run the risk of flexing the weaker blade beyond "flat", and the weak blade will split almost invariably. If in doubt, use a plaque.
How far back can I go when squeezing?
As an experiment, take some dead reeds apart at the thread, soak the individual blades for a few minutes in warm water, and then try flattening them against a tabletop, rolling your finger from the tip to the back. Notice when it splits (and remember that these are old, used reeds). Do this several times and you'll soon get the picture - never, ever squeeze down on the bark. Ever. And when you are close to the bark - squeeze VERY gently.
J.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-02-06 23:59
There is one way, which I know all too well, having it shone to me by my teacher and then overdoing it terribly. Finally, after a long sabatical, I figured out what I was doing wrong. With the mandrel and a plaque inserted in the reed you take your thumb and forefinger pointed towards the thread, and you gently squeeze on the cane at the throat, right near the thread. This presses the blades together and reduces the opening at the tip. The tip may reopen up slightly, but you have to be careful not to do it too much, otherwise, it will be too closed, like mine were. Now, that my sabbatical is over, I'm being careful to not scrape too close to the thread and not to take too much bark off there, until I get to the final stages of finishing. Also, make sure that you use the mandrel, so you don't close the opening of the tube any, while pressing on the throat. Regards, Loree BF51
R. Still former student
Post Edited (2012-02-07 23:56)
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