 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-04 03:42
Here's a new topic I hope is fun and intuitive. I am interested in the bore shapes of some of the better instruments. I am a doubler, looking to expand to the oboe, and am very new, but that's not important.
Loree is relatively easy. AK = Most conical, preferred by some North Americans possibly. DM = Most cylindrical, and possibly favored by Germans. Regular = well, somewhere in the middle.
My personal interests are in Howarth, MCW, and Marigaux, but it would be interesting for me to hear of other makes as well. I guess if we don't know the exact numbers, we could always use the Lorees as a comparison.
Thanks for your input
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-12-04 04:01
Measuring bore dimension is not easy. Some old oboes used discrete different cone angle at different points then smooth out. Some new oboe manufacturers curve fit the these into single boring process. I do not think these measurements are generally available.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-04 21:01
Nor do I think that the bore dimensions are all there is to a good instrument; there are so many factors.
GoodWinds
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-04 22:39
It's possible that it is a mute point, but in my experience of instruments, they are all made by the same materials, or same combination of materials. What makes a loree with plastic upper joint sound better than an all grenadilla patricola? (Maybe someone likes patricola, and I'm sorry if that's the case). In theory an all wood oboe should sound better than one with plastic in it. My personal position is that the column of air makes most of the overtones in the sound, and while the wall may act to amplify certain frequencies, the frequencies must be created with the column, which is a direct result of the bore.
My second defense is the fact that lots of people rave that the AK bore hase a sweeter upper register than the regular bore, and the DM has a darker tone than both. I'm pretty sure to keep costs down, loree would keep as much the same on their instruments as possible, so I assume the wood and metal they use would come from the same consistent place, which would mean the only difference in these instruments is their bores.
I think, however, that I'm not going to get what I'm looking for with the subject I've posted, so I may rephrase the question to one of less mathematics and more emotion.
Kind Regards
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-12-05 01:08
Some of the most expensive oboes are made of man-made material that does not crack. Another word, plastic to you.
Some of the best oboes have man-made insert in top joint to resist crack. That is also plastic to you.
Oboe dimension, material, surface finishing, the way to drill the tone holes, and much more details go into making of special tone.
There are lots of parallel in your question with "What is life?"
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-05 02:25
Well I think that's the point of these threads. When you put together the right reed for you with the right instrument for you, then you get the sound that's right for you.
Matching all these little details makes all the difference.
And so, bore shape is a factor. Especially when trying new instruments. You know why an oboe gets blown out? I imagine it is concerned with the bore, or more importantly, changes in the bore with the expansion of wood over time.
Bore shape is not the only factor in creating a good instrument, but it is a factor in finding trends in instruments that are right for you.
Unfortunately, it seems that this particular topic is not as thought provolking as I had hoped. We've all overstudied the subject of manufacturers, scraping, break in periods, etc... I thought this might be an interesting new addition.
Oh well, I like the other topics, maybe I'll try again on a new subject.
Thanks
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-05 03:57
Hi, DrewSorensen -
I think your analysis of the bore providing overtones and the wall material effecting that overtone set is correct; I once thought that the bore was 98% of the sound. And then, at one of the IDRS conferences a number of years ago I played with a number of different Lorée bells, made by David Weber, on my Lorée oboe. Grenadilla, rosewood, boxwood, Zebrawood, etc. Each bell made an entirely different instrument out of my oboe, sound-wise.
Without going too deeply into why, it seems clear that each maker has developed his set of bore dimensions, hole size and location and the myriad other compromises that result in the distinctive sound of that maker and model. I think that there are so many variables that knowing everything there was to know about the bore of an instrument would only be a part of what gives the instrument it's personality, so I've decided I can learn all I need to know by playing the instrument. A coward's way out, I know, but practical.
A colleage of mine, James Matheson, principal oboe of San Francisco Opera for 43 years (now retired) gave me a list of bore measurements he made of a number of oboes. He used precisely sized discs on long shafts to measure the bores. If you'd like, I'll root around, find them and email the info to you. Contact me separately and give me your email address.
If you have specific questions, David Weber (@webreeds.com) re-bores oboes among his many talents and is a nice guy. Send him questions and I'll bet you get answers...
- Bob
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-12-05 04:16
How nice, Bob!
DrewSorensen, I think the topic is a great one. Don't give up on it too quickly. I wish I knew something about bore dimensions that I could share, but I don't know anything... and would like to.
Have you thought about speaking with some makers? They might be willing to share at least some general information... and who knows? They might give you specifics too.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-05 11:23
Thank you huboboe and pliscapoivre. Very intuitive concerning hole size and location, two factors I had not considered. But I think you are correct that there are so many factors in making these great instruments, and I'm not looking into becoming a manufacturer, just trying to get a little more insight.
Some things that my brain has latched onto from reading into such matters is people seem to enjoy the AK high register, and also adding the AK bell to their regular bore instruments. Lots of people seem to enjoy Marigauxs, so much good has been said that company that I'm really excited to try the 801 and a used 901 if I am blessed to find a good one that doesn't break the bank. I think people enjoy a evenness in their sound, and I wondered if the Marigaux bore could be similarly compared to the AK.
As to where this information would lead, I will be acquiring an oboe in the near future, and I'm trying to learn as much on what to expect from each company as possible. I find that I will have to order from 3 different suppliers at once, since they will only send two at a time. I do appreciate they don't charge to try, but all thst shipping can get expensive quick. Narrowing the field would greatly facilitate not spending all my money on trying, and lower my purchasing ability on the oboe that's right for me. As I said before, I'm especially interested in Marigauxs, especially because they seem to be forgiving on reeds, of which I am a novice, and I'm a doubler, so can't spend as much time as one dedicated to the single art. I don't see much written about howarths, especially the s40c or s50c which are more in my price range, I think lots play the XL. And I haven't seen much on MCW either, but a reputable oboist told me she enjoyed Mark's instruments, and they are nicely priced.
Just more thoughts on our quest. Kind regards
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-12-05 12:48
If you're looking for an instrument and want to try several makes, have a look here:
http://www.norapost.com/inventory_used.html
You could get there without much difficulty from Philadelphia, yes? Might be a good option to try a few out, and even if you end up having some oboes shipped to you after your visit, you might be able to narrow the search down in this way. Just an idea...
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-05 16:40
It's a good idea Pliscapoivre, and yes it is possible to get to Nora Post with minimal difficulty, but does make it a long day.
A concern I currently have is that I've actually played an oboe once, ever, and if I ship them to me, I get 7 days practice. Also, I do not have an oboe to make reeds, so currently I have to make reeds to the point of just working, so that when I get the instruments I can finish them as I decide which oboe suits me. Truthfully, I think this may work in my favor, as I will be able to make reeds specifically for each instrument, and can adjust to their strengths and weaknesses.
I also have reeds from Cooper Wright, who posts on the bboards sometimes, and from Good Tone Guild, both of which seem to play nicely.
I have 5 diffent types of staples (2 Chudnow, 2 Stevens, and Pisoni) for normal bore (two each), and a pair of AK staples for said oboe. Mack-peiffer shaped cane. I am interested in Joshua +2, but that may be unnecessary at this point, and they seem so alike anyhow.
I plan to ship the instruments first, get acclimated to the different makes, then go up to Nora Post afterward, with knowledge in hand, mainly because they have an instrument there that I am really excited to try. From there I hope to get a grasp as to what suits me, and can proceed to try the oboes from the make that is right for me. Also, John Symer, a really good repair man, is close by, but I will bother him once I have more knowledge. I do not want to waste his time.
My hangups right now are that some staples are still on order, and Mark Chudnow does not have an available instrument as of yet. So while I wait, I am gaining as much as I can from all resources to facilitate a successful purchase.
Thank you for your help. And that extends to all who post on these boards. 
Post Edited (2011-12-05 16:42)
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-05 18:10
Two more cents worth...
I'm not a staple expert at all - I've played Lorée oboes and Lorée staples my whole career - but I know that different staples do result in quite different results on the same horn. If you are playing reeds with different staples across several different horns you are dramatically increasing the number of variables in the feel and characteristics of the instruments. This might confuse the issue or you might stumble onto a winning combination that suits you perfectly. I'm inclined to minimize variables when making choices, but I toss it out as worth thinking about.
Unless you are desperate to buy a new oboe right now, I strongly suggest you rent an instrument for a few months and get your chops into shape. Then you will be in a much better place to make an informed choice that is, after all, a major investment. I'll bet John Symer could point you toward a good rental...
Additionally, you could then go to the IDRS conference at Miami University in Oxford Ohio this June and try several each of all the major brands over several days. This way you can be confident you have made the best possible choice.
Good luck in your search.
- Bob
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-05 18:41
I think you are right about renting an oboe first. I do believe I may just do that, assuming I can find a place that will do that for me.
As far as staples are concerned, I've ordered a bunch of different types to find the best combo for me. Its true that it could confuse the matter, but I think really the point in trying oboes it to discover what would work for you best, so I've got all the options at my disposal. I don't believe I'll be performance ready in a day, but I believe I can select a suitable instrument with the tools available, using my background in saxes, flute, and clarinets as a spring board.
What I'm quit interested in learning is how I should approach the reed. As a clarinet or saxophone. Now before everyone posts saying they're not even close to single reed instruments, here's what I mean. For saxophone, which is a conical bore instrument (and maybe this is a real reason for this thread), I use a very soft reed, that I feel vibrates the full length of the cane, and gives a nice complex tone. Quite the opposite, for clarinet I use as hard a reed as I can find with a thick heart. This gives what I like to refer to it as the water tone, liquid like, lots of lower partials, blends very well with other instruments (I know some of you may not appreciate the clarinet, and even less the sax, but that's a different topic)
From listening lots to youtube and radio orchestras, the oboe seems to stick out, which makes me think of it as more of an approach to the saxophone and its reeds. Maybe this is why the oboe tunes an orchestra, because the resonance a conical bore instrument makes (more higher partials) carries through the other instruments.
That being said, I would make reeds on the lighter side, which also makes sense because the reeds made for me by the professionals are quite a bit lighter than I thought they would be, even if they were a strength 4 out of 6.
I dunno, food for thought.
Kind Regards
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-12-10 16:43
This is a really interesting discussion. Thanks, Drew, for starting it and Rob for the really insightful observations. Changing the bell is effectively changing the bore. Similarly, changing the staple also participates in this.
It would be cool if someone used the same reed and did recordings on a whole bunch of different instruments, just to compare the sound. Naturally, the same instrument will sound differently using different reeds and/or played by different people. But a comparison is still interesting.
Ludwig Frank makes different bores for his own (L.F.) oboes than those for the Mönning Albrecht Mayer (Platinum) model. He says his are more traditional whereas the Platinum are more French.
Thomas Orlowski makes a whole bunch of different bells form many makes of oboe (e.g. Mönning, Marigaux).
http://www.orlowski-holzblasinstrumente.de/
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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