 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-05-24 12:57
Hi,
I am wondering what insights people have on the Oboe embouchure.
At the moments I am moving my embouchure slightly more forward .... with less reed .................
I noticed on Youtube . - the Jazz oboist called StellaOboe plays with a forward embouchure.
I am finding better pitch stability with this setup as well as a more relaxed stance while holding the instrument ....
Comments?
Mark
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-05-24 13:49
As far as I am aware, much depends on the scrape. I play on a short scrape, and find that while I have better control and stability playing further down the reed, I do have to work a little harder and find that as I tire, I tend to subconsciously move back (I am working on this!)
As I understand it, long scrape players play with hardly any reed in the mouth, but maybe this depends on the exact nature of your scrape.
Rachel
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-05-24 14:27
Rachel,
What a strange world between long and short scrape players.
I tend to move consciously down on the reed! And I and working not to do so!
Mark
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-05-24 14:33
The only way you can evaluate embouchure is:
a. by the sound AND
b. by the fatigue factor.
We all know (I hope) that Biting Is Bad, and that a more 'open' embouchure is preferred -- whatever will help the reed vibrate to its full potential.
And yes, the scrape (the reed itself) makes a big difference. Other factors (the resistance of the oboe, even the weather) will come into play.
At the same time, everybody's anatomy is just a teensy bit different, so what works for Joe may not work for Catherine etc.
There are probably Magical Formulas out there for Best Embouchure, but I usually work with my students to find their 'sweet spot', that position where they get the best sound with the least fatigue.
GoodWinds
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-05-24 15:29
Everyone has good points, and if i am allowed to make a few observations....
If you clamp down a reed with your fingers at the back of the reed, it takes more effort to close down the reed, on the other hand, doing the same at the tip of the reed will take less than little effort to close it down. Thus...whatever the scrape may be, taking in more reed means less control of the opening and taking less more control. If we take this rule as thumb, reeds that are too open spells trouble more people who take more reed in and vice versa. So what works will then have quite a big scope, i.e. the sound and intonation is determined by the differences in ratio of these factors. Some people play with less strength or more reed or whatever but these has to be "compensated" (equalized?) by the right built (which everyone has a different idea about...don't even go the oboe) to produce the right pitch, and thus produces a different sound which makes the oboe so wonderful!
Most importantly to me personally though, is that the player is consistent. So if the player does not make the reed to suit himself one has to adjust to the reed, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as one finds a system to gain the same intonation and sound every day (e.g. crowing pitches, exercises etc.). I personally play with as little reed as possible and find myself taking in more as i get tired. Short scrape player here.
I do believe still that embouchures that look natural/simple often sound the best...
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-05-24 16:54
I have to fully agree with WoodwindOz on this one.
I play short-scrape, but take almost no reed into my mouth (when it is really good). When I take in more, it's to compensate for something amiss in the reed.
To find your "sweet spot" takes time, but it can be "automated" (you find it without thinking) by doing reed buzzing. Reed out of the oboe do:
1. place the tip on your lips and blow: try to find the place as far out of the mouth as will allow the reed to play --- hold the reed with only 2 fingers with the sole purpose of not dropping it!
a) using the strength of your lips NOT your fingers, pull it in as far as it will go, and push it out again
b) do this repeatedly and you will find a placement for your reed where you get the maximum range of notes: that is your sweet spot.
2. do WAHHH-WAHHH with the reed: that is, open and close your jaw while blowing
a) the main purpose is to get in the habit of dropping the jaw as much as possible
b) this will also help with the sweet spot.
There are many others. I hope there is a book about these exercises somewhere.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-05-25 01:10
"... that look natural often sound the best."
YES: Trust that 'natural' sense, and you might come close to Your Perfect Embouchure (with the help of a little observation from a friend or oboe expert -- a little goes a long way)
GoodWinds
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-05-25 06:09
Okay, it's time to come clean; For the last couple of months I have been experimenting with short-scrape reeds [Nick Deutsch gave us Linda Walsh's DVD at a recent wind-player's association meet].
So here's the thing; I have not needed to change my embouchure AT ALL. I play with ease, close to the tip, on ALL the reeds I make, whether long or short.
Another fascinating thing I discovered; The reeds are the same. That is, if you take a long-scrape reed and telescope the scrape into about half its length and add 2-3 mm to the final length - you have a short scrape reed. Shorter tip, shorter blend, shorter heart, shorter back. But exactly the same with a spine and slightly heavier edges up to the heart (proto-rails).
There are short sections on the DVD presented by players from all over including Martin Schuring, Francois Leleux, Ugo Heng and many more. Nicholas Daniel explains how he takes a great deal of cane out of the back of his short scrape, avoiding the spine and the rails. He also makes the last 0.5 mm of the tip extremely thin (any of this sound familiar?). ".. a reed by any other scrape would play as sweet" 
Here's the YMMV disclaimer; I find my reeds very easy to play but a lot of my colleagues do not - they find my reeds very resistant. Nevertheless, yesterday I managed to persuade my co-oboist (coboist?) to use one of my reeds for an entire rehearsal. He complained about the resistance but there was no arguing about the results - improved intonation, stability, coloration and tone right from the start. He didn't have any problems playing the whole rehearsal either. The Oboe is a high-pressure instrument - what's to do?
J.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-05-25 09:18
Howard, I do think you are qute right with the 'natural' feel and look of an embouchure. Everyone is built differently, therefore there can be no 'set' embouchure as such, just certain methods that work better than others.
I have always believed that if you can do everything you need to, maintain a good tone and sense of tuning and have a good range of dynamics then chances are the embouchure is right for you. The best examples of this are often the pros - while I can't name any oboists with atypical embouchures, even something as simple as James Galway's playing posture shows that the pros can make work what we may describe as 'poor technique' to students (if that makes any sense!)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-05-25 11:38
Many people have described the placement of the reed in the mouth as a prime point which I also agree; however, actually - I was referring to the shape of the mouth.
A more forward puckering of the facial muscles - rather than a more horizontal placement of the lips - to create a more rounded cushion for the reed as well as providing sufficient support for the oboe to maintain distance and balance while playing and holding the instrument.
Poor posture is a no - no ............................... Tai chi may be of benefit - no kidding.....
Comments?
Mark
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-05-25 14:16
Mark,
Have you read Jay Light's "Essays for Oboists"? I believe that he addresses the embouchure technique that you are outlining here. Short answer, he recommends it.
What I like these days is to actually "feel" my embouchure. If I can feel my lips just easily creating a seal all around the reed (minimal pressure), and then consciously open my back teeth (i.e., drop my jaw) and start the air, I get really good response, intonation, tone -- the whole kit.
I think this is a variant on "playing against the resistance of the reed," with the added twist of also playing against the shape of the reed. It's an "embrace" of the reed, rather than some attempt to make the reed and embouchure conform to some Platonic ideal of the perfect embouchure. Very Zen.
Susan
P.S. Jay Light's book is widely available. Google it.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-05-25 16:18
several words help me keep my 'optimal' embouchure:
Center (the sound, the support)
Round
Open
If I'm uncomfortable, which usually happens with fatigue, then those words help me correct.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-05-25 16:22
there's no shame in a short-scrape!!!
Long ago in my more experimental days I tried several scrapes and, like you, got similar results.
You obviously make a good reed.. for yourself. I have a similar experience: when others try my reeds, they find them 'resistant' and yet
they still want to buy them from me. (Which I am very reluctant to do, because I would rather make reeds for THEM, necessitating my knowledge of their particular playing style.
The vibration in a reed is the result of integration and balance and ratio... so whether long or short, fat or thin, if one masters that Ratio... TA DA!
Playing reed.
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-05-25 17:03
J....... I doubt very much you are using the Philly technique with "windows" in the back whereby parts of the back are about as thin as the tip.... no way to shear THAT into a short scrape!
But what you describe is essentially my justification for method over final appearance. I use exactly the same methodology for my shortest scrapes (10mm) and my longest scrapes (no bark at all).
Indeed, the results are intended to be the same: it's just responding to the needs of the cane.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-05-25 17:07
GoodWinds wrote:
> there's no shame in a short-scrape!!!
Why would there be any shame in technique that has worked for several hundred years and is still used today on the most part of the planet?
The Philly technique is a hundred years old at most. It is apparently also used in Holland where the gouge breaks the 0.70mm barrier!... at least, as I have read on one Internet page.
I find short scrape on a well gouged piece of cane so much easier, both to make and to play. I respect those who disagree, but respecting disagreement means neither the others nor myself are inherently wrong.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-05-26 09:51
Mary, I share your technique - those simple words can often revive/remind a tired embouchure!
Mark, when I think of the lip shape, such as the forward 'puckering' of an embouchure, I think I know what you are talking about. I find if I roll my lips in further (a 'flatter' lip shape), I fatigue a lot faster and find I have less control than maintaining an embouchure that is more 'fleshy', which I think relates to what you are describing.
Funny, after so many years as a flautist, I came to the same realisation on that instrument, and that many people lack the tonal control on flute due to an embouchure that is too flat shaped and thin, and not fleshy enough. I know these are not technical terms, so I hope it makes sense!
Rachel
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-05-26 15:53
Rachel, it makes enormous sense (lack of nice tone because of a too-tight embouchure, whatever the instrument).
Tension is the enemy. The trick (IMO) is to create an embouchure that is "strong" without creating an embouchure that is "tense". It does take time to be able to do this.
Susan
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-05-26 16:24
I agree ...........
Tension is the enemy!
The forward puckered embouchure - sets more rounded firm position to place the reed. I just had a lesson yesterday - and my teacher commented that each note is fully resonant and in tune with consistent timbre across the registers.
I bet many reed and/or instrument concerns can be remedied by a better embouchure.
Remember also that good posture and instrument holding is also crucial to minimize tension.
Mark
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-05-26 18:39
Ah! Instrument holding!
My first teacher insisted that one brings the instrument to the lips, and not the lips to the instrument. Subtle but important difference!
Susan
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-05-26 19:13
sort of makes me want to think of 'kissing'... not a bad idea, really.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-06-07 04:16
I play a long scrape reed and have no experience with the short scrape.
I tell my beginning students to tuck their lips over their teeth, then, while keeping them there, form a 'U' (similar to the disgusted "eewwww!").
Use as little reed as possible. If the reed simply won't vibrate, use a tiny bit more. Play the B - C interval (on the staff). If you are using too much reed, the interval will be too wide.
The correct embouchere and amount of reed will produce good intonation. Too much reed will result in loss of control and a bagpipe-like sound. You need to control the tip, and you do this by burying most of it in your lip.
Then relax. Your embouchere should be firm enough to support the reed, but you should be able to slide the reed from side to side across your lips as you sustain a tone. Obviously you will only have control in your preferred central spot, but the reed is not clamped in the jaw, but free to vibrate.
It's hard to describe this without the feedback of the student to balance the 'instructions'...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-07 05:47
...and for a novel 'analogy' approach, I just told my beginner student (who didn't seem to have any temptation to BITE) to imagine his lips being a hammock and the note being an overweight guy trying to take a nap... I said, 'Don't let him sag so much that his bum hits the ground' (i.e. the note goes flat) ... and it worked.
But your approach is very common-sensical, and simple enough to describe. The things we tell students!!!
my teacher only needed to yell one word at me to fix my entire embouchure: CENTER!
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-06-08 03:13
I like your hammock!
- Bob
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-08 03:48
I don't know if it would work (as an analogy) for Everybody, but this young fellow thought it quite funny- and memorable. "And behold, his embouchure improved from that day forth."
GoodWinds
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Author: brassplayer
Date: 2011-06-08 16:52
Thanks for the information.
I have a new oboe student that I will be teaching next week. Any further discussion on the beginning oboe embouchure or suggestions for reeds is much appreciated!
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-08 19:03
suggestion for reeds:
I'm with many others here: the beginners' reeds sold in most music stores are pretty poor; NEVER get a 'soft' -- they are usually flat.
For the same price, students can get 'decent' reeds from a number of sites, the bigger stores being Charles, Forrests, Mark Chudnow, Colorado Reed Company, American Oboe Reed, lots of others. Try to find a specialty reed-maker and if your student does well, stick with that maker.
I always recommend students listen to good professionals' recordings (Harold Gomberg, John Mack, Albrecht Meyer, Heinz Holliger, many others...) to get a 'certain sound' model in their heads.
Happy teaching!
GoodWinds
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Author: brassplayer
Date: 2011-06-10 02:38
Again, very helpful!
Thank you. I'll be back after my first lesson with my new student next week.
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