 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: plclemo
Date: 2011-02-18 00:35
How does one build up endurance on the oboe? I've been playing for 6 months now (after playing clarinet for 40 years) and I still don't have the lip or lung endurance. I'm in good physical condition, so that's not the problem. It just seems like it takes a lot of effort to get a good quality tone. Then I run out of breath and stamina. I want to increase my lesson time from 30 to 45 minutes, but my instructor said I needed the endurance first. It's a catch-22 in my opinion. Thanks for your help. You guys have been a wealth of knowledge for me.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-02-18 01:48
Once upon a time...
I used to play on really big reeds. I was always trying to get bigger and darker reeds, so I'd play on bigger "looser" reeds and just bite down hard on them. This led to serious TMJ which forced me to stop playing for 4 months during my undergrad. Because I always bit down hard, my body could only take so much for so long, and I never really did develop a lot of endurance, despite playing for some 10 years straight. 1992-2002)
I took 6 years off, and came back to the oboe. Recalling my difficulty with big flat heavy reeds, I decided to swing the opposite way and began to play on really light reeds, while using an embouchure that pulled the corners way back in a "smiling" kind of way, with a flat chin. This worked a lot better, and I was able to develop a substantial amount of endurance, depending on how light the reed was. The idea of the Philadelphia style reed is that the reed does more of the responsibilities than the player, and holds the tone together, is stable in pitch, and allows the dynamics to be controlled with the air. In other words, the reed is very, very compact. This worked pretty well for a good amount of time, but I still always had some endurance problems, and had difficulty with excessively long phrases. (2007-2010)
After studying with Martin, he helped me realize that my small reeds which allowed me to play a pppp low D just weren't able to withstand the amount of large air of which a 6'4" healthy grown man wants to blow and so the tone would warp, and I'd eventually hit a ceiling as to how loudly my reeds could play. Because I didn't want to overblow the reed, I would always get old air bottled up for too long, despite careful breathing plans, and therefore tire out just from lack of oxygen. He encouraged me to build bigger reeds with more airflow, and to adapt a more covering embouchure with more lower lip to muffle the reed. I can now say that I have some of the best endurance of my life, and have no problems play 6-7 hours a day with my mouth.
So, to summarize:
1. Play on reeds that are stable in pitch, and tone.
2. Depending on your embouchure, play on a reed that holds the tone together so it doesn't spread so that you don't have to work your embouchure to keep it sounding good.
3. Find an embouchure that you're comfortable with and allows flexibility rather than "the crocodile bite" as Tabuteau would call it.
4. Match the strength of your reeds, and the opening of your reeds, to your physical attributes. If you're a healthy young man, learn to make bigger reeds or order some. If you're an elderly grandmother with less air, order reeds that don't require large amounts of wind so you can easily control them.
One more tip, if you're looking to build, learn to practice on reeds that are "a size too small" from what you CAN do. Just because you can control a bigger reed, doesn't mean it's right for you to try to play all of the time.
I view building endurance as like training while running.
1. You can't just run 10 miles one day and then have huge amounts of endurance the next.
2. You usually want to start very small, and gradually add a lap or two every couple of days.
3. You don't really feel your endurance "building" persay, but one day you'll wake up and run for a couple of miles, and tell yourself, "Hey, this is a lot easier than a month ago".
4. Just because you CAN run 30 miles in a setting, doesn't mean you should, and usually you shouldn't or else you'll hurt yourself. If you max out at 30 miles, and 20 miles is an excessive workout that you "could do" but "it'd take a lot out of you", then just run 18 miles.
Hope this helps.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2011-02-18 01:54)
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-18 02:48
Adding to Cooper's good advice...
Learn to warm up carefully.
Learn to warm up 'quickly'... a 10 - 15 minute problem.
The best athletes in the world tire quickly w/o a proper warm up.
Its really important for building 'endurance'.
W/O it, I tire within 10 minutes. With it, I can play for hours.
Good news is, if you tire quickly, you can still rest 5 minutes, do a proper warm up and press on.
Make or buy really good reeds. Else, all is lost.
good luck with it...
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-02-18 03:06
One last thought: when I wrote this I assumed that you are already playing on decently substantial reeds. Not super heavy, but more than tissue paper.
Too many times I've had students come to a first lesson, and I literally have to pry an old, closed, tissue paper reed from their clenched hands. When I give them a real reed (which is still super soft, but takes more than a sneeze to play), they have major difficulty supporting enough air. I give them a regiment of long tones, and scales, and a week later they come back being able to support enough to play the reed.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-02-18 03:52
That is an amazing response, Cooper! Seriously. I am just so impressed with your self-criticism and ability to grow!
I am a grandmother with LOTS of air. Just ask Craig. He called it a "mighty blow."
I hold back ALL the time. And I don't have a crocodile bite. Not anymore, at least. Gorgeous embouchure these days, truly.
The only time I am not able to play loudly enough is when I am trying to get myself on top of an 80-piece wind ensemble of which 20 are trumpets and 21 are flutes. And my reeds are narrow.
But I much prefer playing with my quintet, Cambiata Winds. https://www.facebook.com/Cambiata.Winds
Paula, what I have found is that endurance comes from playing more. It's just like working out. When you first start on the treadmill, or with free weights, you can't do so much. But if you consciously, intentionally, build up your capacity, increasing the load a little bit each day, you will over time (and over a remarkably brief period of time, in my experience) be able to do more. I think this is the same thing that Cooper said at the end of his note, above.
I just have come off a 5-day period in which I have been forced to play consistently for an hour or more every day without a break -- between quintet and the various ensembles I am in. Boy, do I have more chops today than I had a week ago! And I am tired, so I am looking forward to an easier Friday and Saturday. But I am getting right back on that horse on Sunday -- another concert.
It's the old Nike thing -- Just Do It!
Susan
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 04:22
I love the humility of folks on this site!!
Play more, take breaks, warm up well: all good stuff.
I never had a problem with endurance until I had a severe blow to my health, with major fatigue issues in general.
I find I can play -- with breaks -- pretty well, but a really sound warm-up can wipe me out. I'm working on it, which is what you have to do. In bits. Over time, you WILL notice a difference.
I find that the narrow reeds take less 'muscle' both abdominally and mouth-wise, am trying to get used to them, have a ways to go. Will probably need to work more with a 'middle-width' reed to adjust properly.
It's a good idea to make sure your oboe seals well; a qualified technician can check this, or your local oboe guru. A leaky instrument can waste a LOT of energy.
plug on!
PS Thanks for the terrific encouragement Susan, I want to be playing really well by the time I'm a grandmother.
GoodWinds
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-02-18 05:17
Just to follow on from Cooper's suggestions about reeds, I suffered for awhile from a hard reed ego brought on by playing clarinet - there is a bit of hierachy surrounding reed strength with clarinet players, as you may be aware!
I began oboe 5 years ago and assumed this to also be the case, that a hard reed would produce a fuller, rounder sound and was far superior. I have since learnt that you are much better off not attempting to play on a reed that is too hard for you, there is no shame in playing on a softer reed - in the long run, I feel it is better to learn to produce a good sound (therefore, good embouchure) on a softer reed.
One thing that I find helps me greatly with endurance is playing with others. It is much easier to stop when you get tired if you are by yourself, but like I say to my students, the band isn't going to wait for you to catch up, or stop with you when you get tired. You are forced to go past the point of fatigue, if you reach that point, and each time you do this increases your endurance.
If it is not a possiblity to play in a band, etc, you could even try one of those play along CDs (Movie tunes, jazz, whatever your flavour is). Like a band, the CD doesn't stop for you when you get tired, so there is the determination not to let the CD beat you!
And I do remember how much more endurance I had when I got my Marigaux compared to the old Cabart - the adjustment of your instrument makes an incredible difference. It didn't matter how much I played the Cabart, my endurance just hit a wall every time.
Keep up the good work!
Rachel
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2011-02-18 07:32
I started as a singer and I played the flute long before I started with the oboe, so I had a plenty of years experience from lessons about how to breathe when I started with the oboe. Anyhow when I started with the oboe I had problem playing longer than 45 minutes, and after some discussion with the teacher, we found out the the problem was one thing Cooper described: "I would always get old air bottled up for too long, despite careful breathing plans, and therefore tire out just from lack of oxygen."
Our solution was not to concentrate on inhailing air, but instead be sure that I always got rid of the old air when it was possible.
Today I have no problem playing 2-3 hours and I use narrow, hard reeds of european style.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-18 10:22
Another excellent thread, the full moon must be inspiring people!
Paula, I'm also struggling with endurance when, 15 years ago, I could play for 8 hours a day. We should keep in touch and compare notes, so to speak.
Strangely I have found that long tones don't help me for endurance, and reed exercises even less. I found that my best endurance has always been when I play something enjoyable for 15 minutes, short break, long-tones and technique, short break, then practice as needed.
As with others in the thread, I thoroughly disbelieve that good sounding reeds must be hard as steel, but they should show some springyness. The reason wider reeds require more mouth strength is simply that the "wider arc-string" (I forgot my geometry vocabulary) makes a taller arc and therefore a more open reed. They usually "give in" more easily though, so if your lips are firm (I didn't say bite!), then compensation is easy enough.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-02-20 06:47
I have two quick hints that will really help you:
o EXHALE
o RELEASE THE REED
Now the long version. First, why Exhale?
I don't care how large a reed you have - you cannot POSSIBLY be forcing entire lungs of air through that tiny aperture! So you are not running out of air, you are running out of OXYGEN. To get more oxygen, you need to exhale the stale air. Mark breathing points in your music with ^ exhale and v inhale marks!! [Cooper, Jeltsin and other mentioned this before, but it bears repeating]
Why release the reed?
Your lips don't have a good arterial blood supply, and you are squeezing on the reed - that forces the blood away from the lip muscles (anaerobic exercise cannot be sustained indefinitely). Release your embouchure as often as you can and you keep the blood flowing - so you can play for longer without your lips getting too tired.
J.
P.S., I have a nice lip exercise that works for me, without a reed: Pout your lips and then squeeze the corners in as tight as you can while extending your lips outwards, and hold for 10-15 seconds. Relax, then repeat. You'll soon feel the familiar burn ...
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 12:05
Hey J.
That was a really good reminder.
My main teacher (who had studied under Pierre Pierlot) made a big deal about planning our exhales in pieces: it became part of the musical phrasing. He didn't believe in circular breathing (he couldn't do it, but I think its more than that).
Maybe your explanation of the blood supply explains why my endurance is so low now. Maybe with the resumption of more practice, over time, the endurance will return.... something to add to my blog!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-21 06:12
J.
Good points. I think you are addressing the build-up of CO2 in the blood as we hold too long the breath and release only parts of it.
This next point is a dupe of one from years ago, but army rifle instruction in basic training (just trying to get to the band...) made a point of how brief the time is while holding a breath before CO2 becomes a problem.
Its only 8 seconds, and therefore shorter than many musical phrases we play on one breath.
So, 8 seconds in and I cannot hit the target...so what chance do I have of hitting the note...?
Exhale often is great advice. Mark it in the parts is even greater advice.
Nice one!
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
-Craig
Post Edited (2011-02-21 06:13)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2011-02-23 22:45
What works for me to build stamina is:
1. Long tones. Start at the bottom-most note you can play, hold it as long as you can, rest a moment, then play the next note. Go up and down the entire scale.
2. Play more. Which sounds like one of those stunningly obvious things, but...I had endless problems with stamina until I looked at how long, clock time, I was actually spending on practice each day, and then made a distinct effort to play for longer periods of time, to by golly just buckle down and sit there and play something, anything, for another 10 or 15 minutes.
Sometimes you get to the end of your regular practice regimen and you feel like, "Well, that was a good practice," and then you stop. But you build muscle and endurance by pushing muscles to the point of fatigue--and then letting them rest for a minute and then doing it all over again. So if you stop when you feel virtuous, when "that felt like a goodly amount of practice", instead of stopping when your embouchure collapses and you're spluttering uselessly, then you haven't pushed your muscles to build any stamina.
This meant that I had to go out and find more books of etudes and things, to eke out the time period, for a while I was even playing out of the Hal Leonard playalong books with the CDs, anything for more "clock time", but it has made a big difference.
3. Wait for time to pass. Stamina is just something that takes time to accumulate. When I had been playing for 6 months, I was marking my practice time in 2-minute segments, as in, "Practice for 2 minutes and then quit because you're spluttering uselessly". Now that I have been playing for 6 years, I'm doing considerably better, I can manage an entire hour without feeling desperate. Which I know for the professionals here is laughable, but my only goal is to hold up my end with my church's tiny orchestra twice a month, which entails about an hour of non-stop hymn playing, so #1 and 2 above are what made the difference and have enabled me to feel competent.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-02-23 23:50
I am not sure if all these technobabbling are likely to help or hinder those who wants endurance. It's simple and there is no easy way.
1. Use easy blowing reed.
2. Play, play, and play.
3. Learn to breath right.
Post Edited (2011-02-23 23:51)
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-24 00:16
Technobabble?
Reedbabble, perhaps. Oboebabble.... kinda like the sound of that. 
With acoustics, digital recording, mic technology... its hard to avoid some level of complexity in all that in the mix, I think.
You should have seen the corp execs try to understand the IT things they needed to comprehend for data warehousing and sales reporting things I did.
Deer in the headlights.
But reeds are really simple machines, just valves doing valve things.
Leastwise, when done right.
Post Edited (2011-02-24 00:17)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-24 00:50
I'm certainly guilty of a lot of techno-babble myself, but I don't think I've read any in this thread.
I'll take some solace from those of you who prescribe patience! I guess I should chronicle that in my blog.
Is there a thread on long-tones, I think I'll start one on that and breathing because I remember how proper technique really made a difference way back when.... but I don' remember what or how, not the details on what to avoid and such.
Please don't respond here, keep this one on endurance: this is a really good topic and thread with really good comments from you all!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-02-24 01:11
Dutchy,
Your post is one of the smartest, most comprehensive things I've read about stamina for a long time.
My experience, in a nutshell -- especially the part about playing more and "tincture of time".
Susan
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-01-04 14:22
Sorry to bump an old thread.. but endurance is my current oboe struggle (... after 4 weeks of oboe practise! lol)
But I am confused by this 'wide' vs 'narrow' reed comments. When i went to the music shops, or look online, there is no talk about these sort of details. It is american vs european, and the strengths. How can i find out more about this topic, and try some different widths of reeds please?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2017-01-04 16:44
You’re asking quite a huge question there!
Since I posted my first respons 6 years ago, I have come to realize 3 things:
1. time, practice, perseverance DOES improve endurance: today, I can practice for 2 hours or even more when I am distracted by Facebook! :-)
2. “easy” reeds (quotes are meaningful) are a huge help
3. scraping style and shape mean almost (almost) nothing
#1 is obvious
#2 is relative, because a reed can be hard to blow and yet super responsive. This kind of reed is not good for endurance, but it is still easy to play. On the converse, I have several reeds that are very easy to blow, but they don’t respond well at all: these ones are fatiguing something horrid. But most importantly is any reed (easy or not) that plays well in tune will facilitate endurance - I have lots of reeds that are very easy and responsive, but they don’t “play nice” in terms of tuning: I have to use my lip firmness AND breath support a lot to compensate ….. more breath support means more holding back from the lips means more fatigue. à
=> typically, I find reeds that play just a little bit sharp are very stable and they allow me to play on the very tip of the reed: so always very relaxed.
#3 I like wide European (short) scrape. Many people here will say that these are very hard and require biting: FALSE! I have played several times on American scrape reeds, made by professionals or by amateurs with Bachelor’s and even Master’s degrees in oboe performance - their reeds often follow the adage “if you can breathe enough to talk, you can play the oboe” => seriously, I can’t play on those reeds to save my life: no apologies to anyone, this is how it is, they really don’t work for me, and I have been playing for over 30 years. And when people preach a sermon about how the right reed and embouchure means you don’t need to blow hard and then they huff-and puff, exhausted after 30 seconds of playing and automatically complain that all their reeds are crappy and that it is quite normal because playing the oboe to be a painful experience, I put my foot down and say HOGWASH - I am the living proof that it is not so! (See the “recording history” tab on my blog if you need any proof.)
However, SOME reed makers DO make American scrape reeds that I have found satisfactory, at least for a few minutes of playing. Nonetheless, my preference is hands down for easy-blowing short-scrape. What does seem common among all scraping styles is the reed should not open more than 1 or 1.5 mm. More than that allows for a really rich sound and loud dynamics, but it makes tuning very unstable and requires lots of embouchure work.
In terms of wide vs narrow, open/closed staple …. this is not straight-forward: those interplay with the instrument, experience and more. This is where I truly believe a person’s physical characteristics (e.g. blowing volume and strength can vary over time) will change which description you prefer. Vendors don’t mention these things because you essentially have to already be an expert reed maker to grasp the implications, and by then, you know enough that other things impact even more (density of cane, the actual cane producer, the harvest year etc.). In fact, even your preferences and goals for dynamic expression and articulation will change the type of reed you prefer - WAY too much to describe on a website.
Finally, I would not recommend any vendor to label their reeds as hard or soft for one specific reason: when shipping to a different geographic region, the cane, being a soft grain plant, will behave very differently. In fact, I’m sure most people here (regardless of scraping style) will agree that a reed that plays wonderfully one day (in a specific weather pattern) will be horrible next week (in a different weather pattern) and vice-versa! German players like very hard reeds as a rule, I think the French and Spanish do too, to a lesser degree. A few Chinese makers (KGE and Yong How Keen) actually make amazing reeds, to my taste.
So where does that leave you?
I suggest writing to a few reed-makers (American and European Scrape), state your experience and need for soft reeds that will build endurance, buy at least 3 from each (1 is never enough to form a just opinion) and take it from there.
I’m sure many people can recommend excellent reed makers. For American Scrape, I like Tanya Jonson Galloway (http://www.reedpros.com) and for European scrape, I like several, but for starters you might focus on easy playing rather than full-featured performance, so Tipple has pleased me in this respect (http://www.tippleoboereeds.co.uk).
Good luck and let us know how things turn out!
Robin
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2017-01-04 16:45)
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Author: oboist2
Date: 2017-01-21 04:38
SarahC, there are many different shapes and dimensions for oboe reeds, and most players have a shape or dimensions that work well for them. Generally you will find none of this specified in commercially bought reeds, unless you buy from a player who makes their own and sells them. Good luck in your studies and in finding good reeds. Geoff ( Cabramatta)
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