 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: asartain
Date: 2010-08-25 23:20
Hi, I have a student model Selmer that I decided to do some repair work on a year or two ago. Well, I finally picked it up again and I can't decide what to do with it. I know I'll probably be told to send it to a qualified repair person, but that's okay, because I'm not that worried about messing it up as it's a student model, and I don't really have to play for any reason anymore and I've been curious about this kind of thing for a while on and off, and I figure now's probably the best time to dive on in. It's in decent repair, a student model Selmer, plastic without L.H. F or low Bb. I have several questions really:
1. I would like to clean every part of it. How best to go about it? Soap and water with keys off? Is alcohol bad for the plastic? Is a toothbrush too abrasive? Alcohol or silver polish on keys? What would be best? (I ask because I already did the bottom joint and now it seems a little dull. Whoops!)
2. I've noticed that there is a vertical gap of a little less that a mm on most of the posts. Is it worth worrying with? If it is would swedging be a good learning experience or should I send it to someone else?
3. Would I then need to replace all of the pads? I will already be replacing three of the lower-most pads. I'm worrying about things like tone-hole rims not being smooth enough and the pads not sitting perfectly. Is this something I should necessarily be worried about on a student instrument?
4. What is the best way to clean and re-lubricate posts and pivot screws. I was planning on using pipe cleaners and alcohol, but the pipe cleaners don't seem to fit through the posts. Maybe a creative use of yarn? And when re-assembling would oil be okay, or does it need something thicker, like grease?
Thanks to anyone who is even willing to try to answer these questions, as I know this is the kind of thing that people spend years and years learning the art of. It's kind of like one of those, I'm not worthy types of scenarios. I was almost too scared to post.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-26 01:19
You can wash the joints by submerging them in hot soapy water once all the keys are off (and remove the 8ve inserts as well), and use a small paintbrush (a 1" brush will do) with the bristles cut short to get into all the nooks and crannies.
A toothbrush should be alright, but make sure it's soft enough and you use enough washing up liquid with it. Then after washing, rinse it thoroughly and set aside to dry - if you rinse it in hot water it'll dry quicker.
Polish the keys with a silver polishing cloth - tear it into 1" strips and tie one end to a hook so you can strop the keys to get into all the tight corners and use the remaining cloth to buff up the key touches and longer barrels.
Any tarnish that can't be removed with a silvercloth can be removed with silver polish, but do make sure you clean all traces of polish off the key before refitting it.
If you can remove all the springs, do so as this will make it much easier to polish up all the pillars using a strip of silvercloth. Removing the springs will make sure you don't get stabbed by them and the springs won't get caught up in the silvercloth and broken.
The gaps between key barrels and pillars are most likely intentional - the gaps should get progressively larger as the key barrels get longer so when playing outdoors in the cold the keys won't bind up between the pillars as the plastic shrinks. I've got a Selmer Signet Soloist and the top joint C-D trill lever bound up between the pillars while playing on a dockside due to the cold, but it was easy enough to sort out once I got home by shortening the key barrel to make more end play between the key and pillars. Again, the gaps between key barrels and pillars are relative to the length of the key barrels, so the LH pinky ('feather') keys having the largest gap, the top joint C-D trill lever the next largest, and so on as the key barrels get shorter. If there is excessive lateral play on some of the smaller keys of the main action, then swage them to take out most of the play - but still leave a bit of 'safety' play.
If you are going to replace the pads, try to replace them with cork pads but do grind all the faces of the pads on a few grades of abrasive (start with 400, then 800 and finish with 1200) laid on glass to be sure they're flat so they will seat and seal onto the tonehole bedplaces better. If in doubt, use skin pads, but do learn to work with cork pads as most oboes tend to use cork pads almost throughout. Always glue the pads in with shellac.
As it's a plastic oboe, the tonehole bedplaces should be smooth and perfectly flat, though to be sure you can make a tool to level them if they're not. This is a piece of brass rod with the end machined flat onto which is glued abrasive paper. This is placed onto the bedplace and turned by hand to grind the bedplace flat. You'll have to make several different diameter tonehole toppers to fit all the different size toneholes. Luckily oboes only have a few size bedplaces so make a tonehole topper to fit each size bedplace - you'll probably need six.
You needn't worry about cleaning the holes through the threaded pillars, but clean all the non-threaded holes and key barrels with pipe cleaners dipped in alcohol to clean out the old oil from them.
Use key oil or sewing machine oil for the keys that are mounted on rod screws - preferrably oil that doesn't have any resin in it. Dip the screw thread into the oil and then fit the key - on longer key barrels and on the main action keys, dip the thread in the oil and add a few drops into the key barrel of the key that's the first to go on (eg. G# key on the top joint and RH1 key on the bottom joint) before pushing the screw through. Then make sure the oil that gets pushed out at the end pillar with the thread in it is cleaned up (place a piece of tissue paper there to absorb any oil that gets pushed out). Then add a single drop of oil at the ends of each key barrel to be sure the entire action is oiled.
On keys mounted between point screws, use a thicker viscosity oil (eg. engine or gear oil) in the ends of the key barrels applied with a needle to fill the oil sinks before fitting the keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-08-26 01:32)
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Author: asartain
Date: 2010-08-26 16:52
Thanks very much. This raises a few more questions. I know I've already asked a couple, but will ask again to clarify. I was going through the post holes with alcohol on a pipe cleaner and it was dripping pretty good on the plastic. Do you think this might hurt it and if I'm that worried about it, do you think maybe I should just try a couple of spots to test it out on the back of the oboe, where it won't be so noticeable? Also, when I start with the silver polish, should I be worried about it getting on the plastic? Maybe test a spot with it too, just to be sure. I think maybe the toothbrush was scratching it a bit, so will have to find something softer. It's not horribly noticeable but I do notice it.
I think the main thing when I started on this oboe was that some of the pads were already starting to deteriorate and I didn't realize it and I don't think it was in the best adjustment, so correcting those problems should bring it back up to par.
Oh, and I'm putting new corks at least on the bottom joint. I need to know, how much space should there be between a key and a tonehole? I was going to try to get it rather close, but now I understand that this affects tuning, so would I just start with really thick corks and file until tuning is right? Sorry, kind of a newb.
Honestly, I'm not too confident about swedging or tonehole re-facing. Also, I have no swedging pliers. I guess this is what I consider getting into scary territory. I don't have it here with me to look at, but I believe the spacing is as you said, with mostly the longer barrels having that amount of play including some with pads towards the bottom of the horn, but it's probably okay since they are longer as well. Again I'll say, if you take the barrel on these longer posts, and push them up against the other end, there is at least a mm. A couple of the tone holes look maybe a little scratchy on the surface, but nothing deep. Anyway, how does a tone hole get scratched in the first place? It's kind of hidden. If you think it's necessary, how in the world do I make the tool?
Oh,and it will also need adjustment screws. When I took it apart a couple of them wouldn't hardly turn and I barely got them out. And I'm scared to admit this, but I tried screws from a Fox oboe and I probably screwed up the threads a bit. I will have to wait till I get to that point and order screws to see just how bad I suppose. I might end up having to cut new threads. Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that just turning the appropriate screw through will straighten them out. Again, double oops.
Sorry to be a bother, but I am a worrywart. Anyway, thanks bundles for your kind help.
And about the oil, engine oil is really okay? I think what I have is about that consistency. What I already have is Ultimax key oil in medium viscosity, which it said on the website was actually thicker than most.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-26 18:07
Alcohol shouldn't harm the plastic - use denatured alcohol (methylated spirits or isopropyl), but definitely don't use solvents as they will dissolve plastic.
Silver polish will actually shine up and remove small scratches and light scuff marks from the plastic.
Ok, pad ventings (starting from the top joint):
8ve keys - 1.5mm max.
Trill keys - 1.5mm max.
LH1 - barely opening but with some slight movement
LH2 - 2mm
LH3 - 2mm (this one will determine the venting of the Bb and C pads)
G# - as far as it will open and stop against the adjusting screw from RH1.
Bottom joint:
RH1 - enough to fully open the Bb and C keys, but with a small amount of safety play either side of it - you should feel a tiny bit of double action before it operates the con bar on the top joint, and also a small gap between the end of the con bar and the linkage from the Bb key and also a gap between the end of the con bar and the joint surface once RH1 is fully closed.
RH2 - 2mm
RH3 - 2mm
Low C - 2.8-3mm
Low B - 2.8-3mm
The Eb pad cup should open so the adjusting screw makes contact with the linkage from the low C key.
The low C key also lowers RH2 so it almost closes, but still has some movement left in it (almost like the LH1 fingerplate) - this is adjusted with the adjusting screw on the C key touchpiece arm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-08-26 22:20)
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Author: asartain
Date: 2010-08-26 18:13
Thanks very much! That should cover it. Will post again if any more questions come up.
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Author: asartain
Date: 2010-08-26 21:58
I think I do somewhere. Thanks for recommending though. So glad you guys are here to help.
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Author: asartain
Date: 2010-08-27 22:56
Was reading the adjustment guide last night and decided to compare it to another one. Seaton's guide recommends setting one key slightly tighter on several of the keys while the other guide said to set them at an equal tension. Any reason for this? For ex. "There should be more resistance under the B key than the C key. The difference should be obvious." Why?
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-08-29 05:35
Firstly, Seaton's method is designed for players with a very light touch; he is particular about every key sealing perfectly before adjustment begins.
Also, perhaps the differences are "obvious" to him, but for me they are extremely slight.
In the particular case you mention, the "b" key (LH middle-finger) is a large hole with a large bed-place, while the "c" key (the small key between LH middle and LH index) is a small hole with a smaller bed-place. the only thing you can measure with the cigarette paper is friction - and the larger bed-place will have more friction than that of the smaller hole, if they are closing at the same pressure.
Also, there are three different mechanisms that close the "c" key - the "b" key, the "a" key and the con-bar, and the forces are additive. There is only one mechanism that closes the "b" key itself - your finger.
J.
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