 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: jamesoboe
Date: 2010-07-14 12:24
Hi Everyone
I was wondering if any of the reed-makers on this site have any input regarding Density machines which tell you just how hard a particular piece of cane is. If so, what measurements do you find work best for Cor Anglais cane. I have loads of different types of Cor cane at home, both gouged and tubes. I found I was having little success a month ago and began wondering if one of these machines might save me grief in the short and long term, and help me more accurately decide on particular brands of cane to suit my needs. Any input would be gratefully received. I thought Oboedrew and CJWright, as reed making specialists, would surely have considered this issue and hopefully have an opinion that could influence my decision to buy such a piece of equipment or not.
Many thanks
James
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-15 12:26
Those density machines look like regular hardness testers. My experience with Cor Anglais is limited - I've only ever had horrible reeds using Glotin pre-shaped cane.
But for the oboe, I've had remarkably good reeds from very soft cane to very hard. HOWEVER, all my (tube) cane dates back to 1994 and older. I remember buying gouged cane back then and the notion of "ripe" cane. It was simply impossible to make a good reed with "green" cane (there was really a greenish reflection on the inside) even if it was hard. Even yellow (as opposed to golden-cream) was not so hot. This notion was shared by everyone in Montreal.
I had tried to sun-dry such cane with no luck. Now, it seems that as long as the cane is flat, all my reeds turn out at least decent and often excellent; the only exception being that type of grain that is so porous and dry that it crumbles with a lot of dust when you break it.
I'm guessing - please comment - that density testers are most valuable to determine how to gouge it. I'm guessing that harder cane is best gouged thinner. I only have one gouger and no hardness tester, so I can't even experiment on this.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jamesoboe
Date: 2010-07-16 13:53
Hi Robin
Yes, your assumptions are correct. It is a hardness tester machine. For me, realistically, it's not really to know the density in order to gouge each piece of cane thicker or thinner, accordingly. That is simply too time-consuming for me, though, presumably, it must be an assist in ones reed-scraping. Instead, it's too discover which types of cane most consistently fall into whatever level of density may best suit me. That way, I could limit my purchases to a narrower choice of preferred cane. I have mostly tended to play on Alliaud for Cor Anglais, but in recent years the quality of it has dipped for me due to it feeling simply too hard. I've had good results with Bonazza and Du Var and Rouche, so tend to mix it up a bit, so as not to become too reliant on one particular make of cane. I have a job in an orchestra and don't really have the time, nor motivation, to experiment that much. Basically, I shape, scrape, play and snap all with in the same week, having a fairly quick turnover of reeds. Blowing reeds in slowly is not an option. I have too many rehearsals, recordings and concerts, all requiring a high level of reed output. Maybe this Density machine may save me some sleepless nights.
By the way, I see you're from Quebec. I have a great mate, Stephane Rancourt, who is from Quebec City, and is also principal Oboe of the Halle Orchestra. He and I studied together in Germany under Thomas Indermuhle. I also know Philippe Magnan who has an Oboe job in Quebec somewhere. Small world, huh!
Best wishes
James
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-17 02:11
I have met both Stéphane Rancourt and Philippe Magnan on a few occasions - they would not remember me. Both fine musicians: I mix-up their names, one of them played the E.H. (cor anglais) for Dvorak's 9th at Domaine Forget summer camp under Otto Werner Mueller... when I applauded his faster tempo at the rehearsal, he responded that the oboist was excellent ant cut the tempo in half for the remainder and the concert!
All I can say is I really admire you young and not so young pros: you demonstrate a courage that I did not have. I had the talent, by most accounts, but I was just too distracted by the uncertainty.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2010-07-20 21:17
Hi, James. I've never used one of those machines in my own reedmaking. I just don't see the point. Hard cane and soft cane can both make good reeds. They just have to be scraped differently. And if you start scraping a reed and reeeeeally don't like the way it feels, you can always toss it in the trash and move on to the next one.
There's a school of thought that says, "Scrape for function, not sound, because sound is determined by the cane." There's probably some truth to that. Certainly we should scrape MORE for function than for sound, since function is more important. But there are too many variables to say for certain that the hardness of the cane is the sole (or even primary) determinant of sound.
I suppose it can't hurt to measure the hardness of your cane if you're curious, but I don't think it's very useful data. Anyway, it's not the sort that's ever made anyone a better or more consistent reedmaker or saved much time or trouble in the long run.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: jamesoboe
Date: 2010-07-24 11:15
Hi Oboedrew
thanks for your input. On the face of it you're absolutely right. One should be able to make the needed adjustments to deal with each piece of cane as one goes along. I wonder though, as someone, such as yourself- a professional reed-maker- whether you know that your optimum results come from a narrower range of preferred tube canes, rather than instinctively adjusting to each and every reed, regardless of whether it is deemed hard, medium, or soft?
My experience, however, is that I generally cannot do what you suggest. That is, make the required adjustments to suit all the varying types of cane densities. I have tried marca, argentinia, vic, rouche, du var, alliaud, bonazza, roseau chantant etc., all in the last week and have had fairly disappointing results. Bonazza is giving the best results as per usual. This cane I find a sort of medium hard cane. I must say, though, the alliaud, from several years back, was the stand-out best for me, but it nowadays just feels somewhat too hard and lacking the same sort of tone quality as before. I still get enough good ones to want to keep scraping it, though!
I spoke to T W Howarths oboe shop the other day and was told that Gordon Hunt, from the Philharmonia, had just invested in a Density Machine, which I believe is from Udo Heng. I might try e-mailing him for his thoughts before diving in and buying one, as they are rather expensive pieces of equipment!!!
Regards
James
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-24 11:53
I understand your need to select/reject cane for quicker reed-making on a tight schedule.
Concerning disappointing cane: I remember in the 1990's being often disappointed with cane from all provenances. Generally, everyone in Montréal agreed that it's impossible to make good reeds on "green" cane: ripeness is a factor.
But I had obtained a box-load of canon (tube) cane which I am still gouging & shaping today. This very old cane (older than 1994) is producing very good results. Honestly, the density does not decide if my reeds are good and/or stable anymore. The only thing that does is the flatness of my canon cut and the gouge profile.
This box-load includes Rigotti, John Heyden (?), "California" (obtained from Charles Music N.Y.) and lots of mystery-cane.
If you can't find an acquaintance or supplier to get you old cane, you might want to buy a load and just let it rest. I had tried sun-drying it for speedier results - no such luck.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-25 20:34
Robin,
This is my experience as well. A couple of years back (I only make for myself) a good friend, who decided she would never make another reed, passed me some 100+ pieces of gouged and shaped plus sundry equipment. I have been reshaping these pieces on my own shaper and then making excellent reeds with them.
The cane is all circa 1985, medium hard, and a joy to work with (relatively speaking, of course). Various suppliers - Loree, Mme Ghys, Delacroix etc.
Perhaps aging truly is the key.
J.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2010-07-30 22:31
jamesoboe wrote:
> thanks for your input. On the face of it you're
> absolutely right. One should be able to make the
> needed adjustments to deal with each piece of cane as
> one goes along. I wonder though, as someone, such
> as yourself- a professional reed-maker- whether you
> know that your optimum results come from a
> narrower range of preferred tube canes, rather than
> instinctively adjusting to each and every reed,
> regardless of whether it is deemed hard, medium, or
> soft?
I do have a preference for "soft" cane. But I find there's a lot of variation in hardness/density/texture from one piece to another even within a single crop from a single grower. I used to search endlessly for cane that was "just right." But nowadays I accept a certain (inevitable?) amount of inconsistency in my cane and gouge. It's a shift in outlook: instead of searching for cane that works, I just MAKE it work. And I became a much more consistent reedmaker when I adopted that approach.
But I think certain scrapes are inherently more adaptable. This is the risky portion of my post. I reeeeeally don't want to start one of those ridiculous long-scrape vs short-scrape debates! Both have their pros and cons. But, generally speaking, I think leaving more bark on a reed leaves you more at the mercy of your cane and gouge. I tell my students (only half jokingly), "Bark is the devil!" Because when the bark is mostly removed, there's more scrapable surface. And more scrapable surface means more options to vary the scrape. Also, it's easier to manipulate the opening of a reed with less bark. Mine typically have less than 2mm of bark at the back, and the rails are extremely thin. I think that sort of scrape helps me adapt to different cane, gouges, etc. I know some oboists with traditional American "long" scrapes that are considerably shorter (the scrape, that is; not the actual reed length), with more bark at the back and thicker rails, and I think they're generally more dependent on their cane and gouge. I imagine the same is true of short scrapes. Anyway, that was my experience when I experimented with them. So perhaps those density/hardness testers are more useful for other sorts of reeds.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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