 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-05 17:37
hi,
Please clarify the relationship between shape of staple opening (oval/round) and reed openness.
Mark
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-05 22:53
I like my staple oval and my madrel tip ends exactly at the end of the staple. So, when tying a reed, you wont be misled into tying over the staple.
Round staple opening will open up the reed wide and sometime can cause leaks on the side of the reed.
Oval will offer some stability and consistency when you make a reed.
Of course, you can make a longer reed with a round staple to make the reed opening smaller, but then you battle with other problems.
I am sure Robin and others can offer greater insights as to the physics why a round staple is not the way to go.
Post Edited (2010-07-05 22:53)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 00:15
Staples and shapes sometimes behave in surprizing ways. For example, one pro. here in Ottawa told me that to close her reeds, she crimps the staple (yes, reed fully made) ON THE SIDES... you'd expect it to open, but she says they close that way (she does American scrape).
I have not done the trigonometry, but I think pivot points will account for this. Roundness or oval shape of the staple will probably do something similar.
Professional reed-makers, like Cooper, will probably have better advice on the matter. Mine only goes as far as my own experience. For me, its all about physiology: I like wide open staples because I get dizzy spells with the narrow ones! Loud-voice, lots of air to get through! The only mandrel I have ever used is the Loree standard (I cut staples from the top to open them), so others might have better advice.
Same thing with cane shape: but narrow shapes are easier in the ultra-high register - prehaps the same thing for staples? (above ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif) ).
If you get inexpensive staples, you can experiment with this: experimentation is always my strongest advice.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-06 00:29
Robin:
I also use Loree standard mandrel. Cut staples at the tip to open the staple ? Means you need to work with something less than the 47mm standard ?
You are right about "loud voice" and getting more air through. And u are making European style reeds, so the open staple may work great as far as sound that you want.
I am anal about staples, I always find the need to go to the store and stick my mandrel and try every single staple and test for an exact fit. Then, I wont have to fool around with adjusting the staple too much. Every once in a while, when I want the reed loud, I crimp the staple a bit to open or round out the staple.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-06 01:10
Hi,
Let me clarify further.
I mean the the size of the oval as well as the shape.
For example, I have tubes that fit a Loree mandrel. And I have tubes that work with Glotin staples. The Glotin have a larger opening but they are still oval in shape.
I find I have more pitch stability in the upper register with a larger opening.
I also use a narrower diameter cane now - closer to 10 mm - 10.25 to accomplish the same objective.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-06 05:58
Regarding crimping;
I have done this in the past, but it rarely works for closing down a reed. Better to use a wire in this case. Insert the mandrel, withdraw it a couple of millimeters and then crimp with pliers on the thread.
Crimping is done a couple of millimeters behind the staple tip, the staple tip remains oval shaped. The change in angle that the crimping induces is what changes the reed tip opening (imagine the extreme end of the staple as invariant, crimping behind this parallel to the reed blades will open the reed further). If you crimp the extreme tip of the staple, the reed is useless and can be thrown away.
And always throw away a crimped staple once you've finished with it - it will never make a stable reed again.
J.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 10:27
You're perfectly right to be picky with staples: that's the one easiest thing to control with a perceptible effect. I haven't found the "right" staple yet, unless its the Chiarugi #2+ or #3..... only available through mail order in Europe, I think.
Shorter staples are perfectly fine. They don't really change the pitch much as another post had found. When I was in top shape, I could play from A= 435Hz to 450Hz, no sweat. To lower the pitch, I would pull out the reed like sax players do. To raise it: short staples & cane, narrow shape etc. but tone quality sometimes suffered.
What short staples do is make it easier to play higher, thus giving room to keep the cane longer. Longer cane, I find, gives better sound but it also risks instability and wider opening. HOWEVER: pitch is an interplay of many cane and scraping related issues.... I haven't compiled experimental results on this issue, so I'll relegate to the pros.
My trick for tying, because my staples always sink 2-3mm below the end of the mandrel: wind from the bottom of the cane untill the blades are almost closed, then use a sharp pencil to mark the cane where the staple ends and finish winding so the mark is still visible. Again, trigonometry and perhaps motion due to pressure: the mark tends to go up as the blades close.
"European reed", yes that's what I say. In fact its probably a hybrid as I fully agree with the American principle of soft-lipping which implies more closed reeds. I think hard-lipping might have come about with cane just getting gradually thicker as I've also heard French-school pros. mention soft-lipping as giving better sound. Also, soft-lipping leaves room to press and/or bite if need be.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-06 12:24
Robin:
Tying past the staple is a big no-no as you know. As an experiment try overtying abt 2 turns and see what it does. Results are not pleasant. Also, you have to actually make a reed and realize something is wrong when you make the first crow. You get up there in age, even marking the end of the staple may not be that accurate and sometimes miss and can accidentally overtie. If you are short sighted and battling with progressive lenses because u are long sighted at the same time...arrrgggghhhhh, you know what I mean.
Never tried a shorter staple and longer cane. That is an interesting thought, which I'd like to try. Will it work the same way with the American scrape ?
If trained in the US, it is like a defacto standard to have a Loree and use Glotin for staples. For the most part Glotin silver is easily available and will work everytime, consistently with the American scrape. But, I need to be picky with the staple, it has got to fit the Loree mandrel exactly. I spend hours in the store, trying their entire stock to pick out the ones I want. They never scream at me, and also said that others who come by buying staples are the exact same - anal !
Where do you get your Chiarugi in Europe ? Are they reliable as a staple source ? I realize you cant be picky with a mail order from Europe, basically you need to accept what they give you. Like the cane I get from France, they are better priced than from US, but I cant select the piece I get. I dont like discoloring on the cane, though, it does not make much difference as you are scraping it off anyway, but I tend to shave off more of the discoloration and taking off more cane than I should be. What I liked about being in the Bay Area Calif in my past life, I could go by Forrest and get what I need by going to the store to get exactly what I need. I didnt do much mail order then.
Post Edited (2010-07-06 12:26)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-06 13:02
I'm afraid I don't believe in pencil marks since they move with the cane and don't stay with the staple. If you wrap to the mark and the cane does not seal, you want to be able to shift the cane down a fraction of a millimeter and then wrap again, without worrying which mark is correct, or if the thickness of the mark matters, or if the cane has shifted or not ...
Instead, I have a foolproof method. I use a vernier caliper, like this:
http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/PVB/Harrison/Vernier/Images/Caliper.jpg
I drop the probe (far right in the photo) through the staple onto a hard surface and tighten the knurled screw to lock the caliper in this position. I do this for every reed I wrap.
I can pick it up and check I haven't gone beyond the end of the staple while I wrap the reed. Always correct! And I can shift the cane around as much as I need to get it to close perfectly.
J.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-06 14:03
Jhoyla:
You said: I drop the probe (far right in the photo) through the staple onto a hard surface and tighten the knurled screw to lock the caliper in this position. I do this for every reed I wrap.
Perhaps, I am not understanding this....drop a probe through the staple onto a hard surface ?
Is your cane already assembled ? If you lock the caliper and you have to adjust the cane longer then it doesnt fit the lock caliper, then what ?
Your fool proof method sounds excellent, but need to figure out how to use the method. I hate the pencil thing also, and I didnt spend the time to develop other sure fire means.
Thx
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Author: johnt
Date: 2010-07-06 15:35
I use a vernier digital caliper always set at exactly 47 mm. to measure from the bottom of the cork end of the staple to the last upper wrap of the thread before crossover. If it looks like I've got room for another wrap then that becomes the crossover wrap; if not enough room, then I crossover at that last upper wrap. Works every time. I double check the length of the wrap with another digital caliper. Now if I could just get the blankety-blank thingies to seal every time…![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Best,
john
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 16:27
Yeah.....
I don't know how you can hold the mandrel+cane, the thread and the caliper at the same time while you're tying...
I've been using a Mitsutoyo Dial caliper (graded to 0.05mm) similar to your picture except it has a dial instead of the vernier. Measuring from the bottom of the staple makes sense, but of course measuring from the top of the folded cane is ludicrous: sometimes bark gets in the way and cane fibers can go wild.
But once the bottom has been tied about 5-10 winds -- of course I've finished moving the cane around -- then it is easy to drop the thread (pinching it with the same hand that's holding the cane in place) to do the pencil mark which will now stay in place.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 16:33
I don't want to make any predictions at all concerning the American scrape and cane length because the technique is so.... "inflexible"? With the European scrape, there's always room to start long and progressively shorten.
So far, I got my Chiarugi staples from Roseau Chantant, when they were in Montreal. They moved to Lyon (France). http://www.le-roseau.ca
I think they have renamed everything they sell to their store-name. I used to have to speak to Dimitri Jordanov over the phone. He is also one of the VERY few to sell Chiarugi and Kunibert Michel shaper tips (for my puposes KM shapers are God-sent!). But again, need to speak with him over the phone: his advice has proven fantastic (to me). Dimitri speaks English
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-07-06 17:18
I just skip the crossover. I see the end of the staple through the gap in the sides, set the thread about one turn lower than that, and pull tight. Then I wrap downwards. Maybe someday someone will convince me that the crossover would do wonderful things for my reeds, and then I'll have to adapt.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-06 20:20
Wow, lot of information here.
I speak for my own scrape and my own experience, and lay no claim to my info/word being authoritative.
First of all, the bigger the bore of the staple, the sharper it is going to be. That is and acoustic law pretty much, and I find this to be true across the board. The reason I don't like chudnow staples is I find them riding high on the pitch for my scrape, despite them being 47mm long. Maybe with the right shape/gouge combination this would work, but currently for my setup it does not.
Secondly, the thickness of the wall, and the size of the oval directly effects how long I can tie a reed. Just for example, I use stevens thinwall. If I used Stevens thickwall, I have to tie shorter, because I need more surface area to close the sides with, so the throat needs to be wider. If I use thinwall, I can tie longer. Similarly, since Chudnow staples are larger in diameter, I have to tie shorter. the old Glotin and today's Rigotti are pretty darn small, so I can tie a lot longer.
Robin stated he gets dizzy spells from smaller diameter staples. I'm assuming he's talking about backpressure/airflow feeling different with a smaller bore. I can see where the diameter of the oval might effect the feeling of airflow on short scraped reeds since you don't put in windows like us Yankees. However, as an American scraping oboist, I can usually not tell any difference in airflow just by the staples diameter. Too many variables of the scrape on an American scraped reed can make it feel open or closed (the angle of the spine in relation to the rails, thickness in the middle of the tip, whether the windows are gouged out behind the heart or sloped in, etc.), and I manipulate these variables to gain the desired airflow (for me personally, more freeblowing but not without some resistance.)
The one major symptom of a staple being to closed for me is saggy side octave notes, which I commonly find with Rigotti staples. On the opposite spectrum, the only reason I find Chudnow staples difficult to work with is because they ride too high for me in pitch.
Jhoyla speaks against crimping staples and using wires instead. I think this strongly depends on your scraping, but for my scraping, I think wire would destroy my reeds. The wire creates new "node points" on the reed, which effect the vibrations and overtone sequences. The reason American oboists put wire on EH reeds (VERY GENTLY, as not to crimp the sides of the reed but rather just touch them) is not to keep the opening larger, but to create new nodes to bring the upper register to higher pitch. If you were to tighten the wire down hard enough to prop open the reed, you're cutting off vibrations from the blade downward and then the reed is is a goner.
I do crimp staples occasionally, but usually on older reeds when they're at their end and I just want one more use out of them. I do believe that crimping works better when you're first scraping the reed and it is newer, so the tie, shrinkage/warpage, and the reed hasn't settled completely so it's easier to manipulate. The location of where to crimp is also almost as critical as how much you do it. If you look at the shape of the piece of cane that is wrapped underneath the string, I generally crimp about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way down. Too high up doesn't work quite as well, and it's best to put the mandrel IN the staple before you begin crimping.
The tool I use more often came from David Weber for my birthday. Something he referred to as "reed proctology tool" which is much like a long narrow rod which I stick up the staple, and it changes the Y axis (up down) to be a hair wider, without dramatically effecting the X axis (side to side). I blogged about it a while back ago here. Unfortunately, David doesn't sell these commercially.
Finally, I believe the concept we are talking about regarding how big the opening of the staple is for maximum airflow while effecting pitch placement blah blah blah is called venturi. Wiki describes Venturi as being about fluid, but at the bottom it also states an example is "The barrel of the modern-day clarinet, which uses a reverse taper to speed the air down the tube, enabling better tone, response and intonation".
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-06 22:24
Cooper,
Please explain why a larger opening would raise the pitch rather than a narrower opening on a staple. It seems counterintuitive.
Mark
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 23:20
I'm very sad to say I haven`t taken any acoustics courses, but it sort of make sense as follows:
Pitch is generally a function of length. A wider bore will decrease the ratio between length and total volume in the staple. This might be an over simplification, but it should fly.
I'm mostly glad to read what Cooper said about staple bore opening and saggy octave notes. I've heard the word backpressure often in the past, but clarinettists were using it.... that would indeed cause diziness: in over-heated over-humidified buildings, I came close to fainting from it!
My Loree apparently has a much wider top-joint bore than Laubins - whom I have read take great care in working with pros. to get the tuning they want. I'll have to ask them if this results in more conicity for Laubins and if this affects general pitch.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-06 23:37
I thought Arizona had been a Confederate Territory .... seeing as the Yankees won, I guess that covers you all.
Cheers!
-The Canuck ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
=> (French) Canadian!
cjwright wrote:
I can see where the
> diameter of the oval might effect the feeling of airflow on
> short scraped reeds since you don't put in windows like us
> Yankees. However, as an American scraping oboist, I can usually
> not tell any difference in airflow just by the staples
> diameter.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-07 00:37
Robin:
I guess there is this historical territorial dispute and/or hate that exist even in the American continent. Just like the French and the English and the Friench vehemently rejecting to speak English if they can help it even until today.
I have only heard of this Canadian/American thing from comedians like Russell Peters (who is Indian btw), didnt really know if there is any real dispute except American comedians making condescending jokes about the Canadians.
The Americans themselves have this Confiderate General Lee affiliation and Yankee dispute for as long as I can remember, red neck jokes: even in the culinary community that the south only ate possom pie, collard greens and apple pie.
I saw this in a movie once, set in the 50s, where whites were the master race in US, then came blacks, followed by the Asians who were low waged labour and historically built the railroads, followed by the dog....and the last are the most powerful and richest people in US today.....those were some serious troubled times.
We are fellow oboists, perhaps we can take all these things in stride and share information abt the oboe instead and not let these things get in the way of a productive discussion.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-07 00:46
Indeed, hence the winks and smiles!
The only thing I can say to that is to quote the Country song:
"Dogs are great".... I MEAN: "God is great, beer is good and people are crazy!"
But, québécois as I may be, being called a "Crazy Canuck" is always welcome (GO PODBORSKY!... OK, 2nd generation Crazy Canuck....)
A belated Happy Canada Day and Independence day to all!
Robin
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-07 00:58
Robin
Is Canada day also July 4th and coincides with US Indep day ?
What is Canuck acronym for ? Canadian Duck as a wild guess ?
Never heard of that one.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-07 01:11
Another curio - can't resist, sorry!:
The word Cajun (as in Louisiana) comes from Accadian which was a mis-pronounciation of Canadian! They were one part of the French majority in Colonial Canada. Drive around Detroit Michigan and get a load of all the street names that are French Family names.... case in point "le général de Cadillac" (pronounced Kadi-yak)!
The Cajun did not willingly move south: they were violently expulsed by the Red-Coats when France traded claims to Canada for claims to Martinique after France had won the war for Québec!
I've been saying for 25 years that the worst enemy of modern-day French Canada is not the English but the French-Canadians ourselves... long story.
Again, God is Great, beer is good and people are crazy!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-07 10:36
This is getting too interesting: we might want to take it to Facebook or some other forum. My Facebook account can be found at:
http://www.facebook.com/robin.tropper
Canada Day: July 1st..... not a glamorous name, but it works!
Canuck:
just a word used to describe canadians, initially French, now pretty much all.
Might come from the Irish word Connaught which means Irish-French-Canadian.... yes, that does make sense: Québec adopted boat-loads of Irish orphans during the potato famine. We became very close as the Catholic church agreed to keep siblings together and keep their own family names - standard practice of the time was to separate and rename.
Crazy Canucks:
Canadian Olympic Alpine Ski Team of the 1970s and 80s. Now surpassed by contemporary technology and experience, they wowed the world with their apparent recklessness. (GO PODBORSKY!)
Vancouver Canucks:
Tealc's favourite Hockey Team (Stargate SG-1, season?). Reputed to be better warriors
Take a gander at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Canuck
Canada Goose:
One of the biggest and most beautiful migratory birds on the continent!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-07 11:02
Robin:
Much as I would like to get on FB, unfortunately, I am in one of those countries whose govt, banned google, facebook, twitter and the like. Hence, I can never access FB unless I find myself out of the country.
Thx for the interesting insights about Canada.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-07 14:50
Back on topic - sorry for the delay in response, Hautbois Francais!
I measure each staple exactly, before I start tying. As pointed out here there can be differences of several 1/10ths of a millimeter between individual staples. I don't have the luxury of being able to buy these over the counter, I order from abroad and get them by post. Returning staples because they are .2 mm too long is not an option for me.
I measure the staple before tying by using the thin probe that projects from the back end of the vernier. I open the vernier to (say) 80 mm, push the probe through the wide end of the staple until it projects out of the narrow end. I stand the vernier-plus-staple on the probe end on a solid surface, and push the jaws of the vernier closed until they stop. Then, I close the knurled nut. Time taken: About 3 seconds.
The result: My vernier caliper is locked at exactly the length of this particular staple. I can then use the jaws of the vernier to check my wrap length.
J.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2010-07-07 18:48
So why are 46.5 mm. oboe staples touted as being the thing to have? Wouldn't that measurement tend to make the oboe "sharp"? Rule of thumb says to expose an eighth to a fourth of an inch more of cork if the playing is sharp (for a given reed), thus lengthening the air column. Cooper, et al. ???
Thanks,
john
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-07 19:28
Honestly, I have no idea. I've played with 46.5mm, 46mm, and 47, and I've gone back to 47mm, just because people who buy my reeds tend to want reeds "longer" (but they want their reeds sharper).
I think you just have to play around with the staple length and see which fits your oboe best. Different oboes have different pitch tendancies. The older oboes have sharper pitch level. New Royals seem to be sharper. Laubins feel a bit flatter to me. etc. etc. etc.
When I use RDG 2 shape, I use shorter staples because the wider shape makes it sag a bit. With a the narrower a shape, I'll use a longer staple.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: johnt
Date: 2010-07-08 01:53
Thanks, Cooper. I guess the next time I talk to David/Julianne Stevens, I'll order up a baker's dozen of 46.5 mm staples & see what happens.
john
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-08 11:45
Hi,
I went froma 47mm staple I used on my old Loree to a 45mm staple on my Marigaux.
As for the overall length of the reed - you can still play at 70mm or 69mm etc. You just have more vibrating cane.
Mark
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-08 12:52
When u have longer cane, doesnt the sound go all bright, quacky, screechy and what have yous ?
What remedies would you prescribe ?
Robin with the European cut, what is your take for your type of reed ?
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-08 15:02
Hi,
Longer cane doesn't mean a bright quacky reed. (American Scrape) It all depends on the cane, the proportions of the reed, and as well as the diameter of the cane and other attributes.
Quacky, shrill, bright - whatever, is a reed that is unbalanced - probably more tip and the tip probably is not proportioned properly. The reed also may not have a good structure - spine and side etc.
Reed proportions are very important. I use a needle micrometer to measure the balance of the tip. Back lights and plaques do not give a very accurate assessment of tip thickness .... I measure across the entire tip of the reed.
The balancing of the reed is so tricky: Do I take more off the sides of the heart? Do I take more from the corners of the tip? Do I lightened the heart behind the tip? Do I take more off the back of the reed? Do I thin the corners of the tip? etc..... All these actions can lighted a reed and create other reed attributes as well.
Mark
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-08 18:43
Ooooh I'm actively trying to get my cane as long as I can: with my technique, the tone gets warmer and "goosey-er": I can't find a word for this, you know how the baroque oboe (e.g. Taffelmusik, Academy of Ancient Music) has this gorgeous open and resonating quality?
Well, it's not possible to get that goosey-ness from a modern instruments for a truck-load of reasons, but long cane seems to lean a little that way. With a very short scrape (true French), I had gotten 74.5mm reeds to play at A=438Hz.... no good, of course, but reeds as long as 72.5 mm have played up to A=442Hz
Problem I've found with long cane - I'm hoping a better choice of staples will help with that - is that the reeds get much more open (pivot points at work). Another problem is stability of the trouble-notes (![[E5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e5.gif) to ). With thinner cane, less scraping is required and this allows for less open reeds and more stability (because there's less scraping). My reeds with thinner cane are truly French.
This being said, the Laubin house keeps harping on how the best oboists who play on Laubins (Ted Baskin in Montreal and Liang Wang in New-York) play on reeds shortER than 70mm; both using American Scrape.
I just got my Loree back from re-voicing, so I'll be able to resume experimenting with length.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-09 09:26
Robin:
Goosey-ness, do u mean the sound that a goose makes ? Which is a deep, hollow quack ? Or maybe I am totally off.
Longer reeds play sharp and shorter reeds play flat. What are the relative advantages of a longer reed ? Advantage of a shorter reed ? I am assuming relative to the defacto length is 70mm.
I am in a experiment mode. Hence, my recent experiment with the French scrape. I like the sound of the French scrape after using the remedies that u prescribed. I have always been consistent with my sound. I would now like to experiment with the reed and see what else I can do to the sound.....like u also am somewhat of an academic.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-09 12:42
Ahhh experiment-mode! Un/Luckily, because I'm not playing in any ensembles right now, I can stay in experiment mode for a while. => please keep me up to date on your findings!
I have to agree with Peter Hurd (http://oboes.us) that a variety of sounds is always good. For example, if I'm playing Transylvanian twirl-dances, I like a buzzy clear sound with impeccable response. When playing Haydn, I remember old records from the 1950/60's where the oboe sounded quite unappealing by today's standards - but there was still a certain thing about it. Some movie music is preferable with a clear sound and others with a dark, murky sound. Modern Celtic/mystic music can have sounds all over the map!
For "goosey", yes, its the deep hollow sound, but minus the "quack". If you remove the duck call from a goose call, that's pretty much what I mean.... REALLY hard to express in words! Again, think the oboes at Taffelmusik or Academy of Ancient Music.
If you're getting sharper reeds with longer cane, don't be surprised. Pitch is speed of vibration. Less scraping means more potential energy for the blades to spring back which means it will move faster with more ease. I think - must still test - that short reeds require more scraping just because the shortness causes more resistance lengthwise: more scraping, less spring, lower pitch.
So far, I had to scrape my long reeds more because my gouge is still on the thick side (0.62-0.64). But I did get a few thinner cane reeds to play at A=440 at 74mm.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-09 13:29
Robin:
I am thinking of gouging my own cane, see my new topic posts, wonder if you have any good recommendations for a gouger and the brand of tools I need to get, where to get them and got much they cost...
Yes, goosey with the quack sounds terrible, that is what I thot, that you cant mean a literal goose call.
You are right, the purpose of doing different sounds is to "fit" the music of the period...that is why I need to experiment. Recently, I had to do Stravinsky "Rite of spring", and the "goosey" sound that I normally use, doesnt quite fit the modern, picasso like piece with a lot of offball type sounds eg typewriter...Rachmaninoff, was also a "no fit" for my sound.
My early music training was more of a baroque bias, with Bach, Telemann etc, and the latest in terms of period would be a Mozart. So, I am not multi period flexible in terms of my reeds. That is why, I probably need to change my style of making reeds and ultimately having more control of my reed making, hence, going the gouger direction. I am sure you battle with the same, being multi period capable in your musical career and interests.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-15 21:11
"The staple has a substantial impact on the stability and pitch of the reed. The volume, taper, “ovalness” and thickness of the metal that makes up the staple are all factors that help determine these qualities."
from the link below.
http://www.music.lsu.edu/~jryon/IDRS.Reed.Clinic.pdf
I would like to address the above quote.
Comments?
Mark
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-07-16 04:50
I think if the author could have actually articulated the ways in which these different variables affect tone, stability and pitch, he would have. We all have a sense that all of these matter, but most of us just find what works for us. It's a difficult matter to do a controlled experiment where only the ovalness is varied, or only the taper. We have a bunch of staples (Chudnow, Rigotti, Guercio, Lorée) each of which varies from the others in most, if not all, the variables. Does the Chudnow not work well for me because of the size of the opening, or the relative lack of taper? (Those are correlated to some extent, of course.) I think the way to answer this question is with a theoretical acoustical model, but, last I checked, there aren't really any sophisticated enough to predict the effects of such subtleties.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-16 10:54
Fully agree, like I said before, I really like fat open Chiarugi #3 because I'm a loud-mouth (lots of air to let out!). Lorée staples used to give me excellent reeds but I'd get dizzy spells on them. I just got some staples (forgot the name) from Laubin that are similar to Lorée: so these narrow tubes muist be liked by someone!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-16 14:10
The taper of the tube can influence pitch as well as the opening.
I agree there are so many variables in reed making - it is very hard to isolate the effects of staples.
I just ordered 10 Marigaux staples only to discover they fit my old Loree mandrel perfectly!!!!
Go figure.........................
I found that I prefer the Glotin staples which have a slightly larger and less oval opening and less of a taper.
I will continue to experiment with staples.
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-07-16 23:57
Mark and Robin, what shapes do you use with your Glotin and Chiarugi 3 staples? I find that i have to work so extremely hard for the upper register with narrower staples but could never achieve success with bigger staples because of then sagging middle c and low g. I was not able also, to tie my -1 shape with the big staples simply because they are so extremely huge. I do play short scrape reeds and for that part it already is a problem for most people in the 2nd octave, so any suggestions, staple + shape wise is very much appreciated. Although i could do very well now without more help in the upper register setup wise, i do wish that i could in the future, when i someday find that "magical formula", ha!
Interesting to note is what Thomas Indermuhle recently spoke to me about, he doesn't really believe in using setups to solve problems in the 2nd octave. Rather, he has a technique of changing airspeed, quite remarkable, that does it well for him (still trying to learn it). He says that since there are not really any oboes that has much consistency in that register despite super reeds, there is not much to about it other than learning how to be consistent in our technique....
Mark, i heard that Marigaux staples are in fact Chiarugi no.2 staples, strange that it fits like Loree staples, because i remember them being different. But the consistency of all these companies leave me much in doubt most of the time anyways.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-17 01:55
I'm using Chiarugi #3 with RDG -1, 2 (no minus) and a bunch of other ones. Actually, I found the wide staple helped to close a Nagamatsu #2 when it had a hard time closing on a Lorée copy-cat (very narrow).
I have to agree with Maestro Indermuhle that the notion of a "setup" solving any problems of any kind might be an unrealistic dream... I'm repeating myself ad nauseam, but I don't believe in a single type of reed scraping, either. I do believe in a progressive and responsive approach... and also trashing reeds that just don't want to behave! Actually, if your middle C and low G are low, I'd consider trying other oboes for comparison (individual instruments, not brands).
If your problem is the 2nd octave, chances are your reed is too open. Check-out the sketches on my web-site and be aware that, despite looks, it is not the American windows technique but just a matter of softening the back.
My own preference for the wide staples is that I have lots of air volume and lots of pressure: the narrow staples give me dizzy spells. I can't say more for range or other physionomies. As a student, I'd earn a living playing for the Army Reserves band: often 1st flute parts without 8va transposition. I have just always enjoyed playing in the stratosphere, since high-school.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-17 02:13
Howard,
I use a RDG -1N shaper tip.
As for air speed - - I have found the second Octave key requires more pressure and support as well as a faster air stream than the first Octave.
There is no perfect oboe - I will attempt to further tune my Oboe to minimize discrepancies in the scale/octaves; however, in the final analysis it is evident that to play with proper intonation is a skill continuously learned and modified!
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-17 04:20
I would contend that your dizzy spells are due to such a narrow shape and the way you scrape your reeds than the size of the staple
David Weber scrapes his reeds with with his own shape, a Weber 1-B, which is only slightly bigger than a RDG-1N, and slightly narrower than a RDG -1 (I have all three, and have compared them). I can scrape a reed with an RDG 2 (a very large shape) and it can basically have just as much airflow as one of David's reeds. If you're worried about getting more airflow and reducing backpressure and dizziness, buy one, study it, and learn how to scrape a reed so that the throat and back remain open.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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