 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2010-04-17 18:58
I'm wondering if it's possible to keep your oboe reed in water for too long.
My situation is that I'm doing a show where I'm doubling on oboe, English horn, and clarinet. Most of the show is clarinet, so I am trying to figure out how to handle the two double-reed reeds. Last night I kept them both in my water vial until I needed them to play, but then I thought I might be over-soaking them, so occasionally I would take them out and put them on their respective instruments as a break from soaking.
That got to be a pain, so I began wanting to just leave them in the water until I needed them. We're talking 20-30 minutes.
I don't want to leave them on the horn until just before I need them, because the show's cuts between numbers are quick and I'd have to quickly soak and then put them on the horn in the dark.
I'd much rather just leave them in the water till I play them. Anyone think this could be bad for them?
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-04-17 22:01
Yeah, I do, for one.
I don't know how much is too much, but I know I permanently screwed up a good reed once by forgetting I had put it in to soak, and leaving it in the water overnight. Oboe reeds do not do well as flotsam.
My solution to doubling was to get a stand tray (mine happens to be wooden, from Hodges, and it has a drill-out that exactly fits the water/(film) cannister, allowing it to hand below the tray deck, so it doesn't get in the way or get knocked over). I keep the various reeds lined up on the tray, and I mark my music to remind myself to soak one reed or another just enough ahead of when I need it so that it will be ready, but not oversoaked.
In the case of a VERY quick change, you probably will have to put the reed on at the beginning of the piece, or during a long rest preceeding the switch.
It works for me!
Susan
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-04-18 03:29
This issue was the main reason for me reviving the thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=3805&t=3805
To save time, on the drive to my lessons I was soaking reeds so I could "plug and play" when I arrive. But sometimes they would soak for 20 minutes. And then in the lesson I struggled to play in tune, but at home not such a problem.
So a search on the BB brought up the comment that a reed is not expected to last very long in each playing situation anyway.
Changing my soaking regime appears to be making my learning experience of this thing less challenging...
Chris
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-04-27 01:20
What I do in a similar situation is occasionally dip the reeds in water, then put them in a reed case (one you can keep near the stand, or on that handy plastic shelf-thing that clips onto a stand).
This seems to be the best practice for me.
Yes, you can over-soak them. DO aim for a flexible reed (fairly easy to play) rather than the best possible tone.
GoodWinds
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Author: oboeidaho
Date: 2010-05-06 16:23
I agree with Goodwinds - I get my reeds wet (usually with fresh running water) and put them in the case. Before a rehearsal (or really any playing) I have several wet, and I just play a bit on each one to see "who's up" for the night.
For shows if I play an instrument in the first half, I warm up and leave the reed on the horn. If I don't play for a while, I dunk it at some point a few minutes before I have to play, but I NEVER soak them anymore. I suppose a couple minutes doesn't hurt anything, but they just get all waterlogged so why bother. I keep a coffee mug (the kind that can't tip so our stage manager doesn't have a cow) full of water and use that for dipping.
Your show is probably over, hope it went well!
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2010-05-07 23:51
Yes, my show is over, and I learned a lot about when to soak my reeds and for how long. It got difficult in the second act, as I didn't play oboe or EH until the very end, but I only had about 20 seconds in which to switch from clarinet to EH and then to oboe. So I had to plan very carefully at what point I was going to dunk each reed and for how long. Somehow I got through it!
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2010-05-10 00:18
The show was "Titanic." Yes, indeedy, it was fun. Here's why:
1. 8 shows, 8 sellouts, 8 standing ovations.
2. An excellent, memorable score.
3. An extremely moving story (many audience members had handkerchiefs out at the end).
4. An incredibly talented cast.
5. A wonderful director's conception, somehow staging this show in a 200-seat theatre.
6. An incredibly talented orchestra full of friends.
7. I learned how to play high E on oboe, something I had never done before. It occurred in a very nasty little solo in the first act that I played very well.
I could go on, but you get the idea. It was community theater at its best, and then some.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-05-28 11:00
I've been out of the performance scene for some time, but when I was there, I was very busy! My experience has 2 answers for you:
1. no, it's not possible to over soak them. I've left reeds soaking for 24 hours and they played wonderfully. What happens is that they open up like crazy and you have to be careful pinching them back to a decent aperture. But then the cane is so soft that it's usually safe to do so. They dry up normally afterwards.
2. what I call "performance soaking" is as follows: soak the reeds well under running lukewarm tap water OR just soak them normally for 15 minutes or more. Then leave them in the reed case in your shirt pocket (or such) for the time it takes you to leave home and go to the concert hall - do NOT shake out the excess water. By the time you get to your warm-up, the reed should be perfect. Then, just dip the reed in your water dish and put it back in the case (shirt pocket) between show numbers (leave the excess water in the reed).
I don't know if different reed scraping styles affect this process or not. I uses an "elongated European" profile without American-styled "windows". Contrary to many other Oboists in my acquaintance, I find playing easy, enjoyable and I get no headaches. My sound and performance have been well applauded.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-05-29 12:58
OUF.....
Forgive me for being direct, but the picture of a finished reed is completely meaningless. Actually almost all books and web-pages on the subject make that mistake. Most importantly, my reeds are made for loud-mouths with a strong and generous wind-flow. Other body types might need very different reeds.
From your notes I can't tell how long you've been playing. I'll respond as if you're a professional, but if you're not, you must realise that oboe playing requires both excellent reeds that let you play freely, but your practice on bad reeds over many years will also do a lot of good. You really need both extremes.
Making a reed is a responsive process. No two reeds of mine look the same, sometimes the scrape is very short and sometimes it is very long. I've made excellent reeds with very hard cane but even with spongy cane. One thing I did notice (must experiment more) is that thinner cane (0.57-0.59mm) requires less scraping and gives better sound, easier playing and more stable tuning. Read-up on gouging cane. Narrow reeds usually make the high register easier but some wide reeds (oboe d'amore size) have worked well too.
Things I NEVER do:
1. tie the thread past the staple.
=> I've found that using reed wire is almost as bad
2. overlap the blades (side to side)
Both these prevent the reed from doing its job: beating in the wind.
To help prevent side to side overlap, I take the folded shaped cane and flatten the inside sligthly by gently scraping it with a dull knife. This is an old trick that you'll find in some old oboe method books.
I start scraping the heart (sides) and tip while the reed has not yet been chopped. What I do is very simple, but hard to explain in a letter! My process is tip to back rather than to aim for a particular model. When the reed plays well, I stop, no matter what it looks like.
I start with a standard short scrape on a long reed (75mm on a 47mm staple - but this often changes) but no V and a sharp step tip. When it plays well, I make the V for the tip with a swooshing knife movement which turns the step into a blend between the heart and tip.
If it is too hard even when I scrape the heart half thickness, then I make a W behind by removing the bark only. This usually softens and darkens the sound.
=> an old superstition seems to hold true in Montreal and Ottawa: 70-71mm total length seems to give reeds that are easier for stability and high register. Its probably more a matter of cane length in proportion to the reed width.
If that leaves the reed still too open, then I remove the spine and thin the rails. Following the standard laws of physics, I make sure that the reed is always going thinner towards the front. Open reeds can be gently pinched and close over 15 minutes of playing: the result is a darker sound and usually better dynamics (pianissimo as well as fortissimo).
The only point I dislike is that a stepwise and straight "blend" (limit between heart to tip) makes staccato easier whereas a gradual V gives a darker tone.
Some of my reeds look like those pictures and the pictures explain the general principles. But my reeds are almost all different.
Good luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-05-29 17:36
Robin --
I suppose, then, that you would consider the highly regarded "Oboe Reed Styles" book by David Ledet, which consists largely of photos of finished reeds, to be likewise meaningless?
Susan
@RobinDesHautbois: "Forgive me for being direct, but the picture of a finished reed is completely meaningless. . . . From your notes I can't tell how long you've been playing. I'll respond as if you're a professional, but if you're not, you must realise . . ."
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-05-29 18:36
Such books are very valuable: highly informative to oboists who already have a lot of experience and years of reedmaking on many different techniques.
But learning from pictures leaves out understanding what causes which effects and how many conditions change the effects. This can only be learned by making reeds with different experts in person. Books do help - and they can be valuable references - but paragraphs can be understood out of context and incorrectly generalized.
Many of my colleages, past and present, professional and fervent amateur, follow Mr/s ABC's techniques like the Bible to the exclusion of even trying anything else => these same excellent players would always complain that it's difficult to play the instrument and that good tuning and dynamic range hurts. The more experimentally-minded professionals in my acquaintance never express such complaints but enjoy their playing.
So do consult the books, but remember that the picture describes that particular reed, not necessarily the one you're working on.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-05-30 03:22
Robin, i think i see where you are going here on this conversation. Indeed, it is true that the best players seem to work around handling a variety of situations very well, but unfortunately for many others (like me) out there, who is either a struggling student or even a professional, have much trouble searching and trying to achieve consistency. Consistency is a big word, at least to me in oboe playing.
For example, your statement that "an old superstition seems to hold true in Montreal and Ottawa: 70-71mm total length seems to give reeds that are easier for stability and high register." have proven again and again to be true for my reeds, with 47mm staples corresponding to 71mm length and so on, provided that the reed does no overlap and that the lay is no longer than 11mm. Of course, you are right to say that "Its probably more a matter of cane length in proportion to the reed width." Which is why there are people like Mark who uses 42mm staples with a very big shape and a long scrape, because such a porpotion results in the similar pitch level as compared to a longer staple with narrower shape and shorter scrape, but feels different with the breath and the lips. You seem to suggest that even if you always make the reed with the same measurements, the results will be so significantly different anyways that we shouldn't bother so much with how it would be like at the end of the day and just play on it. And this has been something that has troubled me for a significant amount of years, because, that results in a different technique of holding and blowing the reed every single time.
Sometime ago, i had some reeds ordered from Le Rousseau de Chantant. The quality of their staples and cane have long been 'legendary', and i have in the past played reeds from them which were excellent if not a bit heavy for my taste. But this batch of reeds that i ordered for myself...were extremely heavy, overlapped and without wire meaning that the blades slip again and again, and possibly to 'compensate', had a length of almost 74mm with a 47mm staple. I tried working with it for a reasonable amount of time before i gave up and started scraping and changing the lengths, to disastrous results....Is it my playing, or what is it?
Regards,
Howard
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Author: ceri
Date: 2010-05-30 13:12
A length of almost 74 mm with a 47mm staple is standard in France. Overlapping blades are considered to be the result of faulty tying on and it is common not to use wire.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-05-30 13:31
Great, we now hit hit the rough stuff! This is the "fun" part.... if you're an engineer!
Making reeds is easy. And you're right, reeds should be made to suit your body and playing styles, not the converse. Most of my reeds look different, but they all allow me to play my way.
Once you've established that you are a good player, if you find reed making difficult (I was there a long time too), then there are three things you must do:
1. control the cane : get a good shaper (possibly a gouger)
2. try your own good reeds on different instruments
3. go on a holiday!
=> I'll explain in reverse order.
Holiday: sorry if this sounds presumptuous, but your last note rang a familiar bell... When reaching the age of 35-ish (some time ago!) one realizes just how strongly mental/emontional state has run life up to then. You MUST keep calm, confident, happy and a team-player with everyone else around you. This doesn't happen when nerves are running your life. The best thing that ever happened to me was "quitting music" and joining the Canadian Army Reserves as a musician. I went back to music right away and the military taught me the true meaning of team-work and what my limits really were. Be careful of organizations that claim to "help you reach your potential" and so on: I used to belong to many, the most reputable, and they all have ulterior motives. The simplest ways are still the best: sports, camping, church/synagogue/mosque, hobbies and friends outside your house/appartment.
Instrument: I started getting a reputation for really good reeds when I could be considered an advanced student: excellent control of my playing. Lots of discipline and self-correction, but no nonsense. The Loree I played was excellent, but not for me (now having it revoiced): it didn't take my wind well enough and its "soggy notes" troubled both my sound and my tuning. Remember that the brand does not make the instrument. If I were to buy an instrument now, it would probably be a used Laubin or a Rigoutat, not a new Loree.
Cane: the shape is crucial to reed performance and it has huge implications on body types. Same with staples: what you wrote about cutting staples to suit your needs makes good sense to me. I use (big) Chiarugi #3 or Pisoni (less expensive) that I shorten to match. Roseau Chantant and RDG, perhaps other places, can send you bundles of cane shaped with different shapers. This allows you to test a variety and then buy the shaper that suits you best. Some of my colleagues (with less square bodies) use Loree staples (narrow) and RDG -1 but get the same tone and dynamic range. Some do best with "windows", I can't stand them.
Your excellent observation about overlapping deals with shaping consistency: that's why pros do more themselves. Even the best stores get too busy and quality lags. BUT, even our own shaped cane, when folding, is not automatically positioned correctly for parallelism. To prevent slipping, you need to observe the cane and re-angle it (the way you hold it on the staple) when tying. Use a very bright lamp and be sure the sides of the both blades on both sides of the reed look the same just before you turn the thread downward. Don't finish the tie untill the seal is a "pretty" as you can get it. It can take dozens of tries to get it right.
I've found that gouge really wrecks reeds, so best get cane that's gouged by the store (RDG, webreeds.com, oboecane.com, etc.), not the manufacturer. When still a student, I was fortunate enough to buy a used gouging machine for $100, but it was in a horrible state. Ceramic sharpening stones and good radius gages alowed me to taylor the inside of the cane to my own liking (thinner sides).
Best of luck and keep smiling!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-05-30 15:52
Excellent advice Robin, and i think you hit the jackpot with many things you mentioned. Everything you say i agree with. Let me guess, you have flat low G's and middle C's often with the Chiarugi 3 staples! Makes complete sense that you use them too, because the sagging of the upper register for many Lorees and Buffets and in fact, most of the French makes makes it impossible for most people to use smaller staples, and that you have to revoice your instrument says a lot too...all wonderful things you said. Thank you!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-05-30 17:22
I know I'm jumping in here late, but I'd just like to state a perspective.
I've made reeds for 16 years now.
In the past four years I've played on a Loree Royal, Loree DM bore, Howarth XL, Loree CI, Loree MP, Hiniker, Laubin, and Marigaux full time. And for short stints. I've also spent time with Gordets, Rigoutats, Buffets, and Chauvets. Needless to say, I've been looking for the "magic oboe" that will play the Silvestrini etudes for me.
During these four years, I've also been averaging about 1200 reeds a year, so I'm close to 5000 reeds in the past four years, for oboes of pretty much every brand. During this time, I've learned a few truths about reeds.
1. One reed which works in one oboe won't necessarily work in another, even if they're they the same brand, vintage, etc.
2. One reed in the same oboe might be perfect for one player, and terrible for another. It all depends on tonal concept, embouchure, air support, etc.
3. The best anyone can expect from a reed not made by themselves is something that is responsive, stable (in pitch, and to some degree in tone), and plays with limited or little "sizzle".
Robin, your perspective sounds like it works for your oboe, your physical setup, and your tonal concept, but I think it's pretty darn hard to presume that a lot of your ideas, which are not necessarily "traditional" in other parts of the world, work across the board.
You state that "making reeds is easy", and that might be true for your oboe, and what you demand out of a reed. However, whether we're the amateur player playing every other day or a professional playing 5 hours a day, I don't think it's fair to assume that making reeds is "easy" for everyone. Heck, after 5000 reeds, I still struggle with matching the ability of my reeds to the demands of whatever I'm playing, be it solo, chamber, or orchestral.
Just my two cents.
Cooper
Note: I've since gone back to older Lorees. CU and DX.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2010-05-30 17:40)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-05-30 17:39
Regarding the original question:
1. Some players like Julie Giacobassi soak their cane for days until the organic material leaches out of the cane. I've heard her state that she believes this "stabilizes" the cane.
2. Other players believe that that organic material is critical to the warmth and subtlety of the tone.
So from my perspective, soaking cane for hours upon hours does leach out this material. This is a fact. It's a matter as to what function it serves in your reed, and if you can scrape reeds without this material in it, or more comfortable scraping reeds with it.
One last thing to consider:
Oversoaking cane saturates it to its full capacity. When you dry it out, there will be warpage, as there always is with cane. The faster you dry it out, the faster it will warp, and I'm not convinced that the full effects of the warpage are reversed by another soak. I notice if I tie up really soaked gouged cane, it tends to warp more on the blank (big openings, loose sides, etc) which don't reverse and translate into good reeds.
If I oversoak gouged cane, or blanks, I won't touch them for several days to make sure they're dry before I scrape.
My two cents. (again.)
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-05-30 18:05
Cooper, that is in my humble experience too, with over soaked gouged cane or blanks. It is absolutely a good idea to let them dry for a good 1-2 days before attempting to scrape or work on them. I also find that over soaked cane cracks easier when one ties, with no other factors involved. Interesting.
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-05-30 22:37
The 3 points you note are perfectly correct and well reflected in what I wrote.
It is true that my advice is good for me, not necessarily for others, though I have been offered considerable prices for my reeds and have used a variety of instruments.
But my experience is not only my own. If making reeds and playing on them becomes so difficult that playing is no longer enjoyable - I've seen this in several pros - then something is being done wrong. I've been out of the scene for some time now, but several of my acquaintances have played and still play in world-class orchestras and don't have such problems.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-05-31 03:48
If you don't believe that, as Cooper says, long soaking of reeds doesn't leach stuff out of them, try drinking the water that you've oversoaked the reeds or cane in!
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-05-31 03:56
Coming to the question of the stuff that leach out' of them, does anyone actually know what they are?
Howard
Post Edited (2010-05-31 03:56)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-05-31 05:20
That's something I've wondered--I'm guessing some mid-molecular-weight polysaccharides. Lignans? I've thought about checking that out, now that we have a working LC mass spectrometer at work. But I'm not sure I want to do all the experimentation with sample prep necessary to get a meaningful result. Unless, well, maybe there's a publication in it?
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-05-31 06:23
All I know is its filmy, disgusting, and when I leave the water sitting around for a day or two, it grows and a layer forms on top like warm milk cooling. I have to believe that some of whatever that is has to be some kind of swamp bio-life that is growing.
Perhaps a new alien?
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2010-05-31 06:23)
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