 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-01 15:03
Any non-Loree players out there?
I in the market for a new Oboe. I like to hear the experiences of non-Loree players - and their experiences with non-Loree Oboes as well as their reasons for the purchase of their oboes.
Mark
Hopefully, I will be trying out some new Marigauxs and Rigoutats during the next week(s) or so.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2009-10-01 18:10
I'm currently a Yamaha player (model 841T in Kingwood). I like the scale, which is much better for me than the majority of Loree oboes, and the evenness of the voicing and the response in the low register. The high register response (above E-flat 6) is not as good as on most Lorees although the pitch placement is better.
I played a Marigaux (model 901) for about 6 months but was never comfortable with the high register which I found to be too sharp, although I liked the tone and the low register response.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-10-02 04:12
Cool, glad to hear others play Yamahas. I play a Yamaha 841 standard with grenadilla and think you should try a Yamaha out. Response is truly amazing and pitch is spot on. Workmanship is impeccable as well. Love this horn to death. Give one a try, Mark.
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2009-10-02 06:54
Have a look at the Covey oboes being made nowadays by Ginger Ramsey, especially the oboe she makes of Honduran Rosewood. About $6000 or so. A sumptuous instrument in every respect.
Also, the Marigaux "Altuglas" (clear Acrylic) oboe, though amazingly (!) expensive, is an instrument of astonishing qualty.
And the top of the line Fossati oboes made AFTER mid-2008 will be worth a look as well. Fossati management has changed- now the firm is owned by oboists, and the new design oboe is super.
The Howarth S5 and S5 XL should likely also be in sight.
The Bulgheroni "Opera model" oboe, especially in Violetwood, is easily the equal of all the oboes I have listed above.
I play a new Hiniker oboe in Snakewood- my assessment is that this is the single most remarkable oboe I have ever played in 40+ years of "oboing." However, the Hiniker wait list is still about 5 years and growing longer at "warp speed." Used Hiniker oboes rarely come up for sale, and command almost the same price as new. They tend to sell immediately.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: kimber
Date: 2009-10-02 12:41
I played on a Loree for years and recently picked up a Howarth S5. It took about two weeks for my fingers to really adjust to the slight differences in key distances (mostly the pinky keys and I have smaller hands) it has been a wonderful instrument. Incidentally, it is very easy now to swap back and forth without thinking. The higher notes on the Howarth seem to speak easier overall. I also have not had the spit buildup that I sometimes get in the Loree. I do have a set of reeds for each instrument - the same reed does create a different tone quality depending on the oboe.
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Author: joepie
Date: 2009-10-02 16:23
Hi heckelmaniac,
You sure have been playing for a long time! I'm very curious to your experience on the Altuglas. What makes it astonishing in your opinion?
This year Marigaux have made the clear Acrylic model available in Dark Altu, so it resembles a normal oboe.
I'm looking to buy an oboe, but the Altu oboes sure are expensive. I'm still in a bind to make a pick amongst the Buffet Greenline, Marigaux 2001, Howarth XL and the Dark Altu.
Joepie
Post Edited (2009-10-02 16:31)
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2009-10-02 19:26
Hi Joepie,
I find that the Marigaux "Altuglas" has a sound indistinguishable from a wood Marigaux. And the "Altuglas" is an all around oboe, suitable for all musical endeavor. Has plenty of presence, sweetness, and lyrical subtlety without being a "reed trumpet." Way too expensive though. In 2008, the price was circa $10,500.
While the Buffet Greenline oboe tends to have an impeccable scale, it very much seems in my estimation to be in the category of "reed trumpet"- brassy, "in your face," like nails on a blackboard. And, despite the hype to the contrary, the Buffet Greenline oboe can crack. I have now had report of two Buffet Greenline oboes having cracked and being unrepairable.
Beware.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-02 20:33
Hi,
I just contacted the representative from Josef oboes. I am waiting for a return call.
Dos anyone have experience with this new Japanese maker?
After repeated calls - I cannot get in touch with the Covey people. No one answers - and the voice mail is full. Does anyone have a way of contacting them by email?
Mark
PS: Next week I will try the Marigaux 901, M2, Yamaha 841, and Fossati Artiste and maybe the Josef too.
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Author: heckelmaniac
Date: 2009-10-02 21:24
Hi mjf,
For Ginger Ramsey try: ginger@oboes.com
Josef instruments: BEWARE
Josef brought 4 instruments to the 2008 IDRS Converntion in Provo, a student oboe, a professional oboe, an oboe d'amore, and an English horn.
I did not play the student oboe. The oboe d'amore, though possessed of an exceeedingly tiny voice, was absolutely superb in every respect.
The professional oboe and the English horn were- to try to put it diplomatically- terrible, truly bad, awful. Stuffy, the merest semblance of a scale, and voicing anomalies galore. I tried many different makes of bocal on the English horn (Dallas, Loree H, Chudnow, and Hiniker bocals) without the slightest hint of improvement. All of the instruments were adjusted well. I can not believe that a major maker would have dared to exhibit such miserable excuses for instruments. This was not only my opinion, this was a unamimous consensus among tall the people I spoke with who had tried the Josef instruments in Provo.
With best wishes,
Peter
Oboes.us
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Author: borris
Date: 2009-10-02 22:04
Hmm... This was the only oboe i liked much in Provo. $12000 though...
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-10-03 01:16
I second Peter. The Josef oboe at Utah seemed ridiculously awful, and I was surprised that a maker would display such an instrument.
I actually have been to the Josef workshop in Japan 10 years ago, and they struck me as quite good. I don't know what happened between now and then, but it hasn't been for the better.
Cooper
http://cooperwrightreeds.com/
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2009-10-03 04:41
I've been playing on a 2001 model Fox 400 Oboe, and really like it. It's been a great instrument with even scale. I haven't had many problems with it either. I've been debating an older Loree, but since this instrument has done me well, I'll stick with it most likely, until I can afford a Laubin!
The Fox lines tend to be a bit heavier than their Loree comparisons though. I noticed this after trying some friends' oboes during college, but they still play great. I've got some recordings of me playing it on my website. most of those are from recitals. A friend of mine just got a Greenline oboe and really likes it as well. I'm hoping to try it out someday to see how it is going.
Good luck with the search!
(guess I should post my website if I reference it.... http://maestromusician.com )
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
Post Edited (2009-10-03 05:03)
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Author: Ehafb
Date: 2009-10-03 09:53
I play on a buffet greenline and its been great. In the UK most amateurs play on Howaths which are really good but I prefered the french sound of the buffet.
Bryan
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Author: joepie
Date: 2009-10-03 12:50
Hi heckelmaniac,
Wow, I have heard of Greenlines that broke off at the tennons when they took a tumble, but I haven't heard of cracking Greenlines yet. Do you happen to know what caused those Greenlines to crack? I can well imagine that once cracked, they can't be fixed. It being composite material and all.
Have you had any experience with the Marigaux 900 series? I have been playing on a rented 910 for half a year now. It's a 30 year old oboe. While the instrument does sound very nice, at times I find it a bit straining to keep air flowing through. Quite a bit harder than on the student Fossati I used to play. It isn't keeping me from playing, but I am very very curious if the newer 2000 series - like the clear Altu - is easier to play on.
The shopowner I rented it from commented that the newer generation of oboes let the airflow through a lot easier. I'd like to know if anyone can confirm that.
Thanks,
Joepie
Post Edited (2009-10-03 15:16)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2009-10-03 19:23
I am surprised at the comment about the Josefs, because i just played 4 different models in Taipei and they were all amazing! Bear in mind that these instruments are really designed to played with short scrape reeds. In fact, small staples and big shapes....Perhaps they really made a fool of themselves.....
Howard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-04 12:59
Hi,
Here's some inforamtion on the Josef Oboe.
I spoke to the Josef American Representative the other day and shared some of the sentiments expressed on the BB. She replied that the Oboes are selling very well.
She sates the Josef Oboes are very "reed" friendly and play themselves - since the tone is more integrated in the Oboe and less dependent upon the reed.
She described a freedom and flexibility and a lush tone ............ She plays a Josef as do some of her students - one who recently auditioned and was accepted to Julliard on the Josef.
She first came across the Josef oboe when a student auditioned for her and she was taken by the instruments tone. After she examined the students reed - which was very poor - she examined the instrument and the rest is history.
She commented that Loree players might have difficulty playing the Josef since the approach to the instrument is quite different.
If you would like to speak to her just go to the Josef web site for the email.
She is very committed and excited about the instrument - she is a well know player with lots of experience.
The Josef company is not equipped at this time to send instruments out on trial. You need to go where they are on display.
Mark
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2009-10-05 12:57
Didn't the young lady (senior moment about her name . . .) who won the Atlanta Symphony principal oboist audition a couple of years ago choose a Josef oboe? Seems to me the story was that part of the deal was the orchestra would subsidize the purchase of any oboe she wanted -- and she chose the Josef.
Susan
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-05 14:52
Susan,
I am sorry to inform you - that you have misidentified the person I spoke to the other day.
If you want to contact their rep - just go to the Joseph site.
http://www.josef-oboe.com/index/home.htm
And the contact person for the USA is - Jan Eberle Kanui.
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-10-05 17:22
Jan was one of my professors at Michigan State, and still is to my knowledge.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-10-05 17:47
Hunh? Susan was talking about somebody altogether different--"the young lady who won the AS principal oboist position..."
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2009-10-06 01:04
Perhaps the instrument is really better than most people think and so there are in fact more than 1 person in that states that endorsing it? 2 professionals only using the Josef in the States would be funny wouldn't it? I really recommend them, having played all models myself. On the other hand, the Josefs are getting extremely popular in Asia and Europe. I really find that the response is impeccable and the 2nd octave extremely forgiving, especially for people who are used to Lorees, myself being a Loree player, on a short scrape reed of course.
Beware of the different models though, because the only one that i found to be of equal strength in all aspects of playing is the Manfred Clement model. The standard model is stiff in the lower register, at least to my personal preferences. I tried 3 of those so i am pretty sure that is a general character of it. Extremely warm sound but there is a stiffness in that i can't describe. Then you have the white top model that resembles the Buffet Greenline that Albrecht Mayer played on, this oboe is supposed to be amazing in the bottom for 2nd oboe players, higher pitch in the bottom, superb response in the low register, and indeed, it delivers, but has a scheisse upper register, so forget about it. Then there is the rosewood bottom joint standard model...which, really doesn't help much. The Clement model of theirs is the best oboe they made, in fact, one of the best oboes i have played ever!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-07 23:23
I didn't know oboes had an on/off switch!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-10-08 01:06
Chris said: " I didn't know oboes had an on/off switch!"
I'm sure that many people wished they had, especially when people are learning it and they sound like a dying duck!
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
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Author: oboemobo
Date: 2010-03-05 22:02
The Josef representative is Jan Eberle. I got that exact same Josef spiel and bought one of the oboes. It is terrible. The F# sags, the C and G# multiphonics. I have been trying to make reeds to suit the instrument for months and it isn't any better.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-03-06 02:03
Hi oboemobo,
That is mostly because the josefs instruments were first designed to be played with short scraped reeds using narrower staples. All the symptoms you suggest are a result of a completely wrong setup for the oboe you have. Some of the most beautiful oboes i have ever played came from Josef. Try Guercio D12 Klopfer copies staples from Germany.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-06 11:43
You need to have a different setup for each make of Oboe. I have been playing my Marigaux since October. The staple is a glotin brass 45 mm vs. silver Loree 47 mm and the scrape of the reed is simpler just two main channels with more gradual cane removed from the back of the reed. My results are more consistent and reliable.
For example, at my lesson the other day I made a point with my teacher. I took my reeds which sounded lush, full and resonant on my Marigaux and played it in his beautiful Loree. The sound on his Loree was thin in comparison. I did the same with my second oboe player at the orchestra and I found the same result!
We do not pay enough attention to the different characteristics of Oboe makes and their reed requirements.
PS: I will never go back to a Loree! My reed problems have mostly disappeared and my consistency is fantastic - the only variable I worry about now is the cane and the weather! I wasted too many years playing on an inferior instrument. We worry constantly about reeds - reeds - reeds - maybe more attention needs to be paid to the OBOE itself. Good enough - really is not good enough. A superior instrument solves many if not most problems.
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-03-06 13:13
Spot on Mark.
I had a discussion that day with some colleagues. Think about it, who tests the instruments that are eventually brought into the market? Who tunes them? What reeds do THEY play? If we played the same, theoratically speaking, we would achieve similar if not same results yes?
I am aware of the different preferences of individual oboe players of course, but i do believe very strongly that the very people who made our oboes have the answers to most of our problems. There is a limit to how far off a reed can be from another anyways.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-03-06 15:31
What to me was a rumor several years ago is now fixed in my mind as a law, thanks to your observations and my own recent experience: Marigauxs are very reed-tolerant, and even sort of reed-improving.
The flip side of this, though, is that the Marigaux may limit the sorts of sounds one can achieve. That's fine if you always want the same dark tone. But playing my rental Bulgheroni for over a month now, I find that I can hear a lot more nuances in sound that I never heard from my Marigaux. It's made me a better reed maker, I think. I used to read how scraping here or there caused this or that effect, and, to a small extent, I could hear how it did. But now it's []obvious[], and I'm becoming a better judge of when a reed is "done" because I can hear the problems with reeds more clearly. I feel like I have a much better idea how to create different sounds with my reeds. I don't think my "taste" has kept up with my new-found abilities--I'm probably still a bad judge of what sort of sounds I want in different musical contexts. But I can imagine developing, as Tabuteau had, a sense of what kind of reed is suited to a Beethoven symphony and what sort of reed is appropriate for Händel.
Will I replace my Marigaux with another Marigaux? I don't know. I'm going to have to do some exploration. I may find myself going in the opposite direction from mjfoboe.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-06 16:07
Mike,
I appreciate your observations. It would be nice to have a few Oboes for different effects. A reed can only do so much.
In the final analysis - we all have to decide what tone quality we desire. This is a very personal decision. My teacher says - that the Marigaux suits my personality and style of playing. (Although, when he plays my instrument - I prefer the sound to his Oboe).
What should an Oboe sound like? We all know the wondrous beautiful sounds Oboists make around the world. It is a very intimate relationship between player and instrument. I believe that reeds may indeed be secondary to the characteristics of an Oboe. The reed is just a tool - the wood sings.
I have made my decision: warm, fluid, round, resonant - no edge - to me - it is how I want to portray my conception of tone and style.
One more observation. Since I have played the Marigaux - the response from the audience and my colleagues has been extremely positive. To my ears the sound is closer to the warmth of the Baroque oboe.
Mark
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Author: leigthom
Date: 2010-03-06 16:28
Hello
I play mainly on a 50 year old Kreul, which I have owned for for over 40 years. I use this mostly for orchestral playing as it has wonderful carrying power when needed. I also have and play on two 35-40 year old Marigaux. These I find are better for chamber music and for the times I play second oboe. I find all the instruments excellent with good sound and intonation. They all play well using the same reeds which is a bonus. I also have a Lorée oboe d'amore which is a superb instrument. My daughter plays a Howarth S5 which she finds does everything she wants!
I have always found that all the top makers produce excellent instruments with the odd dodgy one sneeking past quality control! The problem is always finding the instrument that suits you.
The comments on Joseph oboes I find interesting. A friend bought one and thought it was superb. When I went to one of his concerts I found it almost impossible to hear him playing solos from the audience. When he could be heard the intonation was not 100% secure - this was especially noticeable when in octave passages with the first flute. I must try a Joseph for myself!
Leigh
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-06 17:08
Leigh,
I agree with you the oboe must also project. My colleagues have said as well as friends the Marigaux projects beautifully.
One additional comment. When I played the Loree the sound center seemed in the reed and close to my ear. With the Marigaux the sound center is in the instrument and away from my ear.
Mark
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-03-07 00:45
Very good observation! That is exactly what I noticed when I first played the Bulgheroni, too--the sound seemed to be coming more from the reed. Either I've gotten used to that or maybe it doesn't happen so much more as I've adjusted my reeds to the instrument.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jeremyreeds
Date: 2010-03-07 03:45
Hello,
I play Marigaux, and I agree with many in the fact that making reeds for Marigaux is much more easy. Also I find that Marigaux produces more consistent instruments than many other makers, let me explain, everytime I try another Marigaux it sounds great (and very similar one to the other) but everytime I try a Loree I do not know how it is going to respond. Many Lorees I have tried in so many years, and I only remember 2 that impressed me. If I order a Marigaux I know that I will get a very good instrument but if I order a Loree I do not know what I am going to get. Same story with Rigoutat, I heard many beautiful sounding Rigoutats but everytime I try one I am not impressed. Laubin, everytime I try one, I am impressed -but we do not have the time to wait-. My teacher used to play a Laubin and I used to play a Marigaux, I remember him telling me one day: 'if ever you want to sell your Marigaux, I will buy it' .
Regards.
Jeremias
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 23:11
you've gotten numerous responses, so I'll keep mine brief: I've never 'had much luck' when it came to playing Loree oboes, but I've done well on Marigaux, Gordet, and Jarde (no longer made).
It's a bit sad when teachers/profs insist on a particular brand, when that may not be 'the one' for you. However, I ALSO believe that there are good oboes and a few lemons in every brand; one just has to try out an instrument to see whether or not it's 'for them'.
Happy searching.
GoodWinds
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2010-03-09 18:14
Hmmmmm....Nobody mentioned Laubin? Or did I miss it? Anyhow, anyone know the current price of Hiniker oboes? I'm on the waiting list for one, but I'm a little afraid as to what the price will be by the time mine is made.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-18 18:17
Hi,
I just had a lesson with my teacher. He had a used Laubin he was thinking of buying and wanting me to give it try.
The instrument had a nice ringing tone to it.
He also played his own Loree and my Marigaux oboe.
I mentioned before on the thread that that when I played my Loree the sound was close to my ear.
Well, today as I listened to my teacher play the Loree, Laubin, and my Marigaux - I observed that the sound from the Loree and Laubin resonated in the top joint of the Oboe; while the sound in the Marigaux resonated in the lower joint and especially in the bell.
To me, this illustrated the air stream in the Marigaux was building though the entire instrument in comparison to the Loree and Laubin. The result being a core - sound - with excellent projection.
I had a concert two weeks ago. My wife said the Marigaux sang above and through the orchestra. For that concert I played on a older softer reed - it made no difference - the sound carried beautifully.
For your next instrument trial - try comparing the Loree's to the Marigaux.
Mark
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-03-19 02:16
Mark --
You've just about got me sold on trying a Marigaux. (As if I could afford any new instrument right now . . .)
I play a really, really nice Covey Classic, but it is not getting any younger (nor am I!), and I have concerns about the stability of Covey as a brand. Are they going to be available in the near- or intermediate-term future? And what would I play if I didn't play a Covey?
I love my Covey because of the clarity of the tone, and the completely unproblematic high notes. It just has an ineffable sweetness, while still sounding rich. It's the only good oboe I've ever played, and I honestly didn't know that people ever had trouble with altissimo.
The wait for Laubins is something on the order of eight years right now. Since I am one year into my Medicare dotage, eight years is not a reasonable time to wait for a new instrument.
So, here's the question for all of you: what would you play, if you couldn't play the instrument you now are playing?
Susan
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-03-19 03:03
Well, last time I posted to this thread I didn't have my stolen Marigaux back yet, and I was thinking of moving Lorée-wise. Now that I have it back, I'm in love with it all over again. The reeds that I made on the Bulgheroni sounded "clearer" on the Marigaux as well--some of the reeds I got back with the stolen Marigaux were, in fact, rather stuffy. So when my triomates praised the clarity of the Bulgheroni, they may have been praising a slightly different reed style as much as the oboe itself. (My reeds have evolved a lot since I started taking lessons last summer, and I certainly haven't settled into a new rut yet.) With the Prestini still gone, I'm going to get a little bit of money from insurance for a second oboe, and I'm seriously thinking of adding some of my own money to get something more Lorée-like, if not a Lorée itself. But if I have a Lorée and a Marigaux, which will I play more? Which will I get more used to? And when the Hiniker finally arrives in four, or five, or six years, what then? Life is so interesting.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: blueoboe
Date: 2010-03-19 11:30
Susan,
...if I couldn`t play my Dupin, I would opt -(and search) for another Dupin!:-)
Regards
Walter
(Another middleaged amateur)
in Switzerland
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-19 12:30
Susan,
About two years ago - I tried a wonderful Loree Royale. I didn't buy it since I was helping someone else choose an Oboe.
It intrigued me - so when I began my search for a new Oboe I tried Loree royales first. I tried over 13 instruments and had a difficult time duplicating the experience I had with the first one I played. Actually, I bought one and had it for a week. But alas, the more I played on it - I realized I couldn't live with it and sent it back for a refund.
My teacher says that the Royales are now favored in many quarters - however, for me - except for that one superior instrument - it wasn't a good fit.
I've tried Laubin's - and I found the sound to be "boxed in" they have wonderful stability - with less flexibility .
One more Marigaux story. My teacher had two students in an all county orchestra. The advanced student played a Loree and the less advanced student (who actually tried my Marigaux and then bought one) played a Marigaux. My teacher reported the less advanced student's sound just sang right through .........
When my teacher plays Bach on the Marigaux it just seems so congruent.
He frequently talks about an edge on the Loree he always works to minimize - lots of reed time! My reeds in the his Loree sound thin - in the Marigaux thick ....... go figure!@!@!@!
I just prefer the Marigaux experience. One more comment - my teacher had a student who went on for advanced training at a prestigious University. The student at the insistence of her teacher switched from a Marigaux to a Loree. My teacher commented she lost something in the process and struggles more now. Her individuality was lessened. He thinks the Marigaux is in the soloist tradition of Oboe playing in Europe.
Mark
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Author: oboemoboe
Date: 2010-03-19 13:15
ohsuzan,
I owned a Rigoutat (and liked it a lot) for 6 years before finding my Royal. I never was really fond of Lorée oboes, but then in 2003, I found the one I play on right now and fell in love with it. It's actually the only Lorée I've ever felt comfortable on. If I ever have to change it, I would probably go back to Rigoutat, or investigate Marigaux (I tried a few models and liked them enough to actually consider buying one... eventually)!
Cheers!
O.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-03-19 15:18
There is no doubt about it, the Marigaux instruments are generally much warmer instruments tonally speaking.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-03-19 19:00
It's worth repeating that this entire "generalization" process is extremely subjective to how thick/thin your reeds are and how they are balanced, how hard you blow, how much you cover with your embouchure, what your tonal concept is, etc.
Having said that, I can speak for myself, a very "healthy blower" who doesn't cover much with the mouth and plays on lighter reeds with very refined tips and extremely thin corners,
I find the Marigaux 901's are beautiful instruments with a nice scale, very even legato and nice slurring intervals (particularly slurring 5ths or bigger intervals downward without "clunking" on the bottom note like Lorees tend to do). What I dislike about Marigauxs is that I always feel too contained within the color spectrum of the tone. I feel this way about Loree AK models, but moreso with the Marigauxs. More specifically, I can get "clarity" as Susan discussed, but I can't get purity without a constant presence of lots of lower overtones. This is great for someone who wants nothing but that dark tone, but for my playing I strive for a greater color spectrum. I'm not saying that it's not possible to get, but for my scrape, and reedmaking structure I am unable to get it. I WILL say that Marigauxs are probably the friendliest oboes when it comes to less than stellar reeds. One of the girls in the ASU studio has a very fine Marigaux, and I was discussing her instrument with my professor Martin Schuring, and we were amazed that you can put a raucous crowing reed in her instrument and it really refines the vibrations on its own. I think this is the greatest advantage and disadvantage of Marigaux, and is also the reason why everyone agrees that it is a "warmer, creamier, smoother" sound.
Laubins are also beautiful instruments and function in a different manner. Where as Lorees are built to amplify vibrations and "shoot them out" of the instrument, Laubins are designed to stifle certain vibrations. The bore has this effect, and even the skin pads have a certain vibration absorption quality that cork pads don't. (If you ever play a Grenadilla Laubin with skin pads next to a Grenadilla Laubin with cork pads, it's an entirely different feeling.) For players who need a sense of "containment" in their playing, Laubins can really refine the sound and hold in the "rough edges". For me, I have to work harder to get equal volume, which includes blowing faster speed and blowing harder more constantly than I would on a Loree. I find that my tone on Laubins is darker and covered up close, but my sound loses a lot of the overtones from 50 feet or further, where my tone sounds small and tinny. I also find that when playing on Laubins, I feel like I'm always playing into a blanket which I can't get "clarity" or "singing quality" in my tone, so I blow harder and harder to get it, and usually my tone distorts and pitch gets nasty before I ever get that quality. Maybe if I played on thicker heavier reeds I could achieve this, but not for my setup now, and I doubt I'll change my reeds enough to get to that point.
I recently played a Rigoutat J instrument which my friend has from Nora Post, and it is a beautiful instrument with a beautifully fine scale, and the same "creamy-ness" that Laubin has. You still have to blow harder like a Laubin to "get out from under the blanket", but it seemed to have a tad more flexibility.
As for the Hiniker, it is indeed more like a Laubin in the sense that it also has a dampening effect. Probably 50+ people have tried my oboe, and the first thing out of 48 of those people's mouths is "wow, that is REALLY even." What they specifically mean is the tone from note to note is even and the scale is also pretty good too (although that's rather subjective). The tone is Laubin-ish and it requires a lot of blowing as well, but I no longer use the original Hiniker bell on it but rather a Loree GV bell reamed out a LOT by David Weber. The bell gives me enough flexibility to get clarity and singing in the sound without overblowing, and amplifies the tone enough so that I don't feel like I need to blow the house down. Yes, I could get more flexibility out of a Loree in tonal color and in my airspeed, but I think every instrument gives up something, so the Hiniker fits me well and is a happy medium.
One last note: this past Monday a well-known Bay Area freelancer came to David's shop with his two Laubin oboes - a 30 year old Rosewood with cork pads and a 3 year old Grenadilla with skin pads. His mission was basically to find a better solution to his equipment than he has, which was that he is playing his Grenadilla with a Loree AK PI bell reamed out by David. David, I, and Fred Capps sat there for hours listening to him play his instruments with 5 new Weber Reeds prototype bells which are currently in the design phase, plus an old Cabart bell, and we matched both instruments with prototype bells that made ridiculously huge differences. All five of the bells changed the entire tuning of the scale (some for better, some for worse), response of the sound (some more responsive, others more resistance), amount of cover and clarity, and even feel (one bell made his Laubins feel like a Loree!)
Different bells are designed to do different things. Loree, Covey, old Kohlerts, and the new Howarth bells project/amplify vibrations. Laubin and Fossati dampen vibrations. It's always worth switching bells around to see if there's a positive or negative effect. Even switching one AK bell to another AK bell can really change an instrument.
Cooper
Edit: The two instruments I would like to own are both Lorees. A few years ago Lou Rosenblatt had surgery on his neck to remove cancer and they cut a nerve where he couldn't play again. He sold his Royal that he owned, (Maybe a O or a P?). It had been heavily modified in the bottom joint and bell to open up the bore by him and John Symer, and there had been major undercutting done in some of the toneholes, in fact so much done that in the first right finger tone hole, it cut into the tenon socket! But man, that was one of the best instruments I ever played. I couldn't come up with funds, and my student bought it. Another instrument I found in Hannah's house (of Hannah's oboes). It was an old DD in bad shape, which she almost didn't show me because she thought it was too old. I find it peculiar, bought it, and David Weber promptly found it interesting enough that he asked me for the instrument, so I gave it to him. He repadded the whole thing, bore adjusted it, and then he sold it because he needed money back. My high school student bought that horn. We took it back to Hannah and played the DD next to my Hiniker in a blind test and without hesitation Hannah picked the DD out as being the better instrument! So much for "old, blown out crap".
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2010-03-19 19:21)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-03-19 19:11
This whole concept of the sound of the instrument "coming from closer to the reed" or "coming from lower in the instrument" to me seems to be related to how the bore is built. Lorees are built to amplify vibrations and enlarge them from everywhere, even in the undercutting, so the vibrations would be resonating out of the top joint as well as the bottom joint, bell, and out the bottom of the instruments. Other instruments such as Marigaux's tend to deaden the sound up top and enlarge the vibrations from down below. This would explain your reasoning as to why the sound feels like its coming from different places from the oboe.
If you every get a ton of oboes from different makers, switch top joints around with bottom joints, bells with different makes and models. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you need to put the top joints on so the bridge keys don't connect and only play D major, other times you need to put scotch tape/cigarette paper in the sockets so that the different joints hold together. You can learn a lot about the design of each instrument.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-19 20:01
Copper,
You make excellent observations. The much much Older Used Laubin a had beautiful ringing tone. It was not a "Marigaux" tone - and I guess the Marigaux would not be able to duplicate its nuance.
However, I would not want to be identified with that particular conception of Oboe tone which in itself is self-defined and limiting.
So, it becomes a personal and audience response to the sound. I mention the audience - because they are the ultimate arbitrator.
How should an Oboe sound? Well, go to the Oboe Sound Gallery and listen to all the beautiful interpretations. And then pick one out for yourself to emulate.
I guess the important message here - is that we all struggle to define our playing - that is the challenge and the reward.
Let's not be boxed in by any brand and/or even tradition. Let us all be free to choose the manner in which we interpret the Oboe in all its glory and frustrations.
As for me " the aroma of warm roasted coffee" as my wife described the Marigaux tone - sits well with me.
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-03-19 20:23
Mark,
We all are "constricted" to some degree, whether it be by the reed, our physical makeup, or the instrument. It's a matter of how constricted is TOO constricted! When does "flexible" become "instable" or "wild"?
I've used the oboe gallery several times in correspondence with various reed clients, and while it's helpful, the problem I run into is a client will often want to sound like blahblah, but they're not sure whether they want to sound like him/her up close or from 50 feet out or from 200 feet.
When David and I test instruments/reeds/bells/etc, we start from up close and we walk from one end of his shop clear up to the front lobby, some 60-80 feet away. Different tones/instruments can sound unbelievably different from up close. For instance, I'm sure on the oboe sound gallery the Mack Sheherazade recording is from a relatively close distance (10-20 ft?) where as the Mack Mozart Oboe Concerto was obviously recorded from a further distance. Notice how so much of the lower overtones drop off, and his sound is much brighter and more shallow. You might be able to argue that it was a different reed and such, but most people who took a lesson with John Mack could tell you that he could take the best of reeds and the worst of reeds and he still sounded the same. Even the Quartet recording which was made 20 years earlier on vinyl sounds more like the Sheherazade recording, because it was obviously recorded closer up.
Finally, take time to listen to the Greenbank recording of the Barber. Her sound is as full, covered, luscious, and still full of color. Obviously that was recorded in a full orchestral setting, with the violin being closest to the microphone, but more of her overtones carry. I would be 90% sure that Greenbank's sound is probably not as "full, covered and dark" with so many lower overtones up close as Mack had. One final note: it's interesting that she was a pure de Lancie student.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-19 21:18
Cooper,
Great insight. Point well made about the recordings. You are absolutely right - whether it be the oboe - reed or player - the way the sound travels - is quite different at times from what you hear up close. Sometimes - players will make a less vibrant reed that sound "dark" in near proximity only to sound dead in the audience.
You need to hear players in many different settings. Although, I think individual characteristics do stick to the player and you get to know the players approach and tone.
Very interesting discussion.
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-23 12:44
Hi,
Last night my teacher came over - he was still trying to decide whether to buy the Laubin and he wanted to try my Marigaux once more.
As per Cooper's good insight about recordings - I recorded each Oboe - a Loree, a Laubin, and a Marigaux in the same environment - while my teacher played the same scales and selections with the same reed.
Then I played the recordings in different orders without identifying them.
My teacher consistently selected the Marigaux as the instrument of choice.
I want to emphasize that he has not been a Marigaux groupie at all - just the opposite.
If anyone wants to some more details just drop me an email.
Mark
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2010-03-23 18:58
With respect, I don't think testing different oboes with the same reed tells you very much, except maybe how those oboes respond to that reed or style of reed.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-23 20:08
NO disrespect taken!
On the contrary - I see the opposite - the reed(s) was made by my teacher for his Loree and the Laubin - to maximize their potential - (and although one reed was selected - others reeds were used in the selection process). Furthermore, the reeds were not made for the Marigaux - and the Marigaux was still the preferred instrument.
The reed was just used in a concert! Where during rehearsal he played the Laubin and for the concert his Loree. He had the Laubin for 10 days on trial.
If anything my Marigaux was a less familiar instrument.
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-03-23 22:04
Okay, I yield!
I will say this finally.
I find that Loree reeds have to have the most refinement, thin corners, and perfectly slanted integration area with a thicker middle of the tip.
I find the best Marigaux reeds have plenty of rattle in the crow, and would sound loose and very spread on a Loree.
Finally, I find that Laubin reeds have to have substantially larger openings than either a Marigaux or a Loree reed, and while they shouldn't have as much rattle as a Marigaux, they should produce a slightly spread tone on a Loree, with a bit of edge in the sound.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-03-23 22:19
Cooper,
No need to yield................
The only point I wanted to make is for people - to be flexible in choosing the right instrument for themselves; whether it be a Loree, Rigoutat, Fossati, etc.......................
There is a whole world out there and people should not be locked into one brand or tradition.
That's it - nothing more.
I enjoyed the dialogue and I hope others did too.
Sincerely,
Mark
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2010-03-24 17:08
For about 6 months I played a hybrid -- using either my Loree AK topjoint or my Laubin top joint on my then new Marigaux 2001 oboe while I slowly broke in the Marigaux top joint. In fact, I performed the Marcello concerto with that hybrid combination and felt quite satisfied with the sound, while especially enjoying the ease of the low notes and generally covered aspect of the Marigaux sound. I had to put electrical tape around the cork of the Loree and Laubin tenon joints because the Marigaux 2001 has an especially wide diameter there, and adjust the linkages, but had absolutely no problem with the hybrid. In fact, I only slightly preferred the instrument with its original top joint over that combination (using either of the other top joints)
Elizabeth.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-03-24 17:13
Very cool! I'm assuming the bell socket is too different to get anything on the Marigaux lower joint? I think I remember the Marigaux bottom joint being too big for a Loree bell?
That's great. Did you notice any "tendancies" or differences in reeds you had to make with the Loree topjoint or Laubin topjoint to the Marigaux topjoint?
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2010-03-24 18:04
Hi Cooper -- As it was my first Marigaux 2001, my reeds tended initially to be like those which I had been making for my Laubin for a few years (the Loree top joint was one from an oboe I sold years earlier to a student with my alternate plastic top joint -- I kept the wooden one; my Laubin-oriented reeds were very different from my Loree ones, however, permitting results without all the exacting care which my Loree required). I am certain that over the years as I played on Marigux my reed making style changed, but not in any dramatic way all at once. The extra bells which I have always had around did not fit the Marigaux because of its girth there. I do not know about the relative dimensions of the 901 model, though, which has a different bore. I have heard of other professionals playing hybrid instruments -- it's worth some experimentation if you are looking for a quality of one instrument and do not wish to lose other qualities. The bores of my instruments were all so different that it was very surprising to me that I was happy with their intermingling.
Elizabeth
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-04-16 05:05
Well, I just spent a few hours at RDG getting my English horn looked at (and some excellent tuning up was done to it--it feels like a new horn) and I was also trying out a bunch of oboes. There was a real nice regular-bore Loree--GV something--with a great scale, but I wasn't sure I wanted something that forward. I tried some new AK's, and they're really not as far towards Marigaux in the sound spectrum as I expected. But they did seem to me to occupy a nice intermediate ground. They really do project, though, which isn't really my concern of the week. I say I want more color flexibility than the Marigaux, but it's seems just so warm and comfortable for me right now--like cuddling up with a down comforter. The GV Lorée did have a bit better intonation than my Marigaux, which has a second register A which tends sharp. On the other hand, I think I'd have to change my reeds a bit to keep the Lorées from sagging at the top of the second register.
I also played a Buffet Greenline, which was nicely dark, but I found the pitch much less stable than my Marigaux. The thing was also heavy, especially compared to the Lorée GV. I also played a Howarth, but it was just an old S55, and it just wasn't up to the level of the other pro instruments.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-04-16 12:41
Mike,
The idea that the Marigaux sound is somewhat fixed - in a warm silky spectrum has been something mentioned on this thread.
My teacher is still struggling whether or not to buy a Marigaux - its now a few weeks !!!!! multiple recordings - multiple friends listening to the Oboe and still uncertainty on whether to purchase the Marigaux oboe.
When I ask him why it so difficult to decide - he response is "it's so sweet"!
Yet, the attractiveness of the richness/warmth of this particular conception of sound still has him enthralled.
Does this mean your boxed in with a Marigaux tone? Well, I think it depends upon where you are in your professional or amateur career and where you feel you want to go with your development of oboe tone and technique.
If the oboe was not so inviting - which it is - with its fluidity and warmth and core projection - reed friendliness etc................ then I suppose my teacher would not be struggling so much ...........................
One more thing - the instrument must fit the personality of the player - he has to make the music and must enjoy and respect the tone etc.............
I know I am a Marigaux player - it suits me - and I milk every note of its warm fluid silky and yes "sweet" tone.
Mark
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-04-29 04:27
I know I'm "interrupting" quite a dialog here, but I'm with Cooper: different brands respond to different style reeds.
There are reeds (and players) that can get equally good results on different instruments, but either they're one-in-a-million or the player is brilliant at adapting and compensating.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-04-29 04:32
not quite connected to the thread, but my very old Jarde actually has a curve in it. I'm not sure if this is use or age or 'environmental factors' (humidity, warping), but I KNOW it wasn't put there by the manufacturer, unless they were going for a hoax of some kind. I doubt that other instruments' top or bottom joints would improve its sound -- not that it's a perfect oboe, but because they probably just wouldn't 'go' with it.
GoodWinds
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-04-29 18:44
Update!
My teacher bought a Mariguax 901 Oboe...........................
Mark
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