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 My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-09 22:36

This post is long. By no means feel compelled to read it, let alone in its entirety. I won't be offended.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Although I studied many years ago with Leon Russianoff, who was a wonderful teacher, and have played single lip for most of my time as a clarinet player, later in my life I was influenced by the likes of

Kalmen Opperman,

https://www.amazon.com/Kalmen-Opperman-Excellence-Denise-Gainey/dp/B078Y7WQK8


Tom Ridenour (an Opperman student)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FObgaNh9DQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E03zHygaXhU

Corrado Guiffredi

the great Harold Wright


and even stuff

Ricardo Morales

has had to say about the embouchure—even if not one who uses it regularly or exclusively.

Although I cannot see differences in my sound on digital analyzers when I play double versus single lip, and suspect that few could tell the difference in my sound using either embouchure, to my ears there is a subtle difference in sound between the two techniques, double lip sounding more pleasing.

To me, double lip embouchure seems, if I were to start a new on clarinet, the better way to grip a mouthpiece. I say this because to my way of thinking, to emphasize bite strength, rather than concentrate on all the muscles in the face that grab a mouthpiece from all sides (including bite), and squeeze towards a center point, is an approach that leads to sub-optimal results. Many a player before me has drawn analogy between the embouchure and a rubber band, not a vice grip. And the additional opening of the oral cavity, and upper palate that comes part in parcel with double lip play is an added plus in my opinion to sound production.

So I started playing double lip, using the isolation of Covid a few years ago as the perfect opportunity to approach this task. And it was not easy: having to deal with physical pain and muscle exhaustion.

First, as all clarinet players will attest to, years of play has had us form the necessary adaption on the inside of our lower lip to the lower teeth contacting it, single or double lip embouchure alike.

Of course not so with the inside of our upper lip, as double lip embouchure requires, and the pressure the upper teeth place on it.

So initially, covering my front top teeth with some cover of sorts proved necessary.

I would play sections of pieces until the sooner of pain or exhaustion, mostly the latter with such protective upper tooth guards in place, would kick in, striving for longer and longer segments of double lip play time with each practice session.

And eventually I no longer required such upper front teeth protection, usually.

Additionally the duration of time I could play double lip got longer to the point where at symphonic band rehearsals, where unlike home practice time, there were enough rests built into pieces that I could give my face muscles a rest, I could play the duration of a 2 hour rehearsal this way.

I so enjoy how much smoother an entry I can make using double lip embouchure when pianissimo sound levels are required, and that such ensemble work often necessitates when you're, unlike in orchestra, one of 15 other clarinet players.

Additionally, I play a relatively closed tip Vandoren M15 mouthpiece, along with strength 3 reeds: a combination even weaker than Vandoren's suggested reed strength range for this setup.

But even after a year of play, my endurance is not that of single lip play, particularly for notes like C6 [C6], or ones higher than G6 [G6] where fatigue comprises their ability to be played, much less in tune after a few minutes at double lip play.

Still more, there are phrases, despite all the Opperman guidance on light fingers (Opperman use to take nearly all the tension out of the throat A key [A4] in his student's instruments,) that are just minefields for the budding double lip play, like ones that quickly alternate between few and many fingers down, or ones of similar speed that have intervals with throat tones. In short, passages that rock the instrument, no matter how lightly, create further difficult for double lip play.

And for all the lightness of touch and most carefully setup instruments.....for all the Ridenour guidance of increasing the pressure on the right thumb to stabilize the instrument and snug the mouthpiece for both ultra high notes and such difficult finger passages, I was faced (no pun intended) with the evolutionary reality that bite strength, and ability to consume food, rather than the strength and ability to “hold a sword in ones's mouth” or at least have the overall facial strength to do so for durations, was "far less favored in my species from a Darwinian perspective."

Every so often I'd grow frustrated. My quest was not helped by listening to the wonderful sound of single lip players like Jon Manasse , or Gregory Raden, the former Manasse's sound so smooth it sometimes sounds to me like it was electronically produced (even though of course it isn't).

Fortunately, I'd have Harold Wright to re-inspire me.

All this said, I don't think my work was in vain, and perhaps is best summarized by the aforementioned Morales linked video.

Double lip embouchure has given me a sound concept and way to produce it that I do my best to transfer over to single lip. Even under single lip play, and as a result of my double lip play experience, I place minimal pressure on the top of the mouthpiece and incorporate comparable side muscle pressure via the buccinator muscles etc., to those muscles that facilitate bite. I am convinced that Manasse, a student of double lip playing David Weber, was advantaged by his teacher's sound concept, and I would not be surprised to find out that he too found his own way, through single lip play, of developing the accommodations he saw fit to get the best out of his single lip sound (not that for a second this amateur seeks to compare himself to Jon.)

I've heard from a reliable source (that will remain anonymous) that Jon was a double lip player during parts of his training. I don't know if this is true.

I may never fully adopt double lip play. But I don't regret the journey. I've developed the ability to quickly switch between the two embouchures and find that at times, particularly for short durations, that nothing beats double lip.

Were I to have a solo for a few measures of ensemble work, I'm pretty sure I'd switch to double lip if afforded the chance.



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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2025-10-09 23:24

My personal experience claims that smoothness problems with intervals that "quickly alternate between few and many fingers down, or ones of similar speed that have intervals with throat tones" were due to a) imperfect finger coordination, and/or b) unnecessarily - and often unconsciously - changing something with part of the tongue or with the jaw or other nearby muscles.

Also, notes above G6 don't require noticeably greater bite pressure. At least, not until around G7, and probably not even then.

I switched to double-lip years ago because it felt more natural to me. At this point, stamina and stability aren't problematic.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-10 00:37

I wish I had your experience Philip.

Do you brace the instrument when you play? Are you as comfortable playing standing up as sitting down, as compared to the same two tasks playing single lip?

What I mean to ask by that question is, respecting that standing up while playing is more arduous a task than playing while sitting irrespective of embouchure, do you play standing up, and if so do you find it no more challenging with either embouchure?

It's my understanding that Harold Wright soloed while sitting, as did John Bruce Yeh (both double lip players) before (I can't find the video at the moment) someone in the CSO organization suggested he stand, where he had to practice to develop the stamina to do so.

I can't play much higher than D7 [D7]. My dog otherwise insists on this. ;)



Post Edited (2025-10-10 00:38)

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2025-10-10 01:22

Standing tends to be less stable. When sitting I often stabilize the bell against one knee, laterally with a slight verticalizing diagonal, but sometimes I practice standing or walking about the house. I've soloed standing with the local band a number of times, and beforehand I'd practice that way, and it was fine, but since most of my practice is sitting down I usually lapse into the habit described. It really shouldn't be necessary, hmm, now I want to stop doing it. :-)

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: David Eichler 
Date:   2025-10-10 02:00

It is my belief that Joe Allard's method for single-lip embouchure gives all the benefit of of double-lip without the discomfort if you have sharpish upper front teeth, as I do. I switch back and forth between single- and double-lip some of the time when practicing, and I feel that the results are more or less the same. If you can play double lip without undue discomfort, why not? But there is a good single-lip alternative. However, I think most will need a teacher who knows the Allard technique well to learn it thoroughly, whereas I suspect most can probably learn double lip on their own, since it has built-in limit to prevent using excessive jaw pressure.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-10 02:51

David Eichler wrote:

> It is my belief that Joe Allard's method for single-lip
> embouchure....

So I looked up a narrative description of it:

"Joe Allard's single-lip embouchure method emphasizes minimal pressure, lower lip as a cushion, and active facial muscles to promote reed vibration and a free, resonant tone. Key aspects include placing the lower lip stretched over the lower teeth with the lip covering its entire circumference, using the zygomatic major (smile) muscles to gently stretch from the mouth's corners to the cheekbones, and maintaining an even air stream. This approach prevents biting, allows for greater flexibility, and allows the larynx to respond freely to musical imagination"


I'm glad that these are the very things I'm doing and reached on my own in my single lip grip. The lack of jaw grip, the emphasis of side grip...yep. :)

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Ed 
Date:   2025-10-10 06:19

One of the keys is to keep the embouchure firm but avoid biting. It sounds as if you are doing that and are on the right track. In the higher register, be conscious of using the air and your voicing to get the high notes rather than biting. I am not sure if you mentioned using a mouthpiece patch or not, but as a double lip player, you might find it helps the upper lip get a little bit of a grip, as opposed to the slickness of the hard rubber beak. You might consider using a neck strap to help stabilize the instrument.

Harold Wright did sit while playing solo. On the other hand, Richard Stolzman, who was probably Opperman's most famous student developed his double lip with enough strength and security to stand as a soloist when performing all over the world.

Just be patient and keep making progress. It sounds as if you are going in the right direction. It is possible to work on being relaxed enough that you will be able to play without tension or getting tired.

While it sounds as if you have a reasonable set up, you might consider talking with Brad Behn to get his thoughts. One of his concepts is about having the mouthpiece give enough hold so that it is possible to play without undue embouchure pressure. His mouthpieces can be expensive, but the Prescott model is very reasonably priced.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Alexey 
Date:   2025-10-10 14:01

Playing clarinet with a double lip is a huge topic, and I'd like to chime in, though I am not sure how to better formulate and structure my message.
So, it will probably be a bit chaotic.

Some preliminary thoughts.

Relying on video/audio records is not so good for getting how a particular clarinetist sounds. Some changes in post-production could drastically change the sound.

I am a big fan of J. Manasse and think he is one of the best alive clarinetists, but in some records, there are definitely some changes that make his sound almost artificial (but still so beautiful and desirable).

So to get an idea of how someone sounds, we need to listen to as many records as possible, but still, it's better to listen to a live performance if possible.

And now some points to consider.

1. To me, there are some double-lip players who sound worse than some single-lip players. I mean, I don't think there are any definite signs or attributes of "double lip sound". So it's definitely not a silver bullet.

2. I am not sure if double-lip has real benefits. I am not sure that using it automatically raises the soft palate. Also, I am not sure if it's really important.

3. Maybe using double lip creates a bit more spacing in the mouth, but I am not sure how it's really important.

4. My belief is that the main things that contribute to shaping sound are how and where we apply pressure on the reed. So, probably it's better to concentrate on what we do on the reed and not on the top of the mouthpiece or deep in the throat.

5. Sound is a cumulative effect of so many things that we can hardly control all at once. But we can control the sound. So the best way is to listen to the sound and try to get the sound we want for every note, despite the dynamic or range. Then, when we get smth we like, we can start analyzing what our lips, jaws, tongue, throat, and breathing do.

6. I don't really believe in "no biting" embouchure. It's a good idea, but sometimes it leads to awful sound. Just a very simple example of how our bodies could trick us. We open our jaws not to bite, but now our lips don't have a structure against which they can harden, and our embouchure becomes loose, and we don't apply enough pressure on the reed, and we have unfocused sound. So we need to apply pressure to the reed, and this pressure varies a lot depending on register and dynamic. So, probably we'd better learn how to apply the necessary and sufficient pressure. I am not sure how double-lip helps with that. Only careful listening could help.



Post Edited (2025-10-10 14:03)

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: super20dan 
Date:   2025-10-10 16:46

a duckbill beak mpc make all the difference for learning double lip playing. i believe morgan may still make these. personally i see NO advantage in playing double lip playing but using a duckbill mpc -you can play with better control and play standing up.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-10 18:31

I'm fortunate enough to play with two former students of Opperman's, one who took lessons from him much earlier in his teaching career than the other.

The first plays double lip. He said, and I believe it from what I've read, including the "Legacy of Excellence" book I linked in my OP, that playing double lip, including following Kal's other teachings was a bit of a "it's my way or the highway" mentality. You did things Kal's way or you found, or were told to find another instructor.

Kal had his thoughts on play, from embouchure to finger position that I've read was quite dogmatic. This is not to say he wasn't a caring teaching or wrong: his disciples cherish him as the link to his memorial page I provided establish.

The other friend learned from him later in Kal's life and plays single lip: the same as can be said for Ricardo Morales (both timeframe and embouchure). When I asked this friend if Kal made him play double lip he said that he did not.

For whatever reason, whether the maturity of the student or Kal's, his policy did seem to either change or be more flexible depending on the student.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-10 18:35

Karl our moderator's a double lip player, correct?

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-10 20:34

...a video excerpt I wanted to share, but couldn't find yesterday of John Bruce Yeh talking about double lip embouchure during Andy Simon's Licorice Talk podcast.

https://youtu.be/hQ64TqmOBg0?si=BmgZqqJ-qSjOlXDE&t=7100

At the 2:00:30 mark John talks of his need to further develop the embouchure so that he could solo standing, as requested by the sister of Ralph (oboe-BSO) and Harold (oboe-NYP) Gomberg.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Ed 
Date:   2025-10-11 17:05

Perhaps double lip is not for everyone, but I found many benefits when I switched years ago. As far as "no biting," I have found that with a set up that has good focus and a light responsive reed, there is no need to muscle in the sound. As much as possible, it is important to use support from the lips rather than the jaw.

In discussions of tone, no embouchure is a magic fix. You can hear players who sound lousy on any set up and in either style. As always listening, adjusting and having a good sound concept is the answer.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2025-10-11 18:11

I play double-lip, but I won't claim any superiority of it over single-lip. It just feels more natural to me. Initially, after a couple brief past experiments with 2L, I tried it again one day, and again found it interesting but too painful, but then was surprised when I unthinkingly went to use it, instead of my long-accustomed practice, each time I put the clarinet to my lips. So, I listened to my body and gradually switched over.

2L helped me sort out some things at the stage I was then at, but I believe I'd do those things as well now with 1L. However, now 1L feels weird, like the connection between upper teeth and mpc is too hard, but I doubt that translates into terms of projected sound.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2025-10-11 20:17

I have a bit of a unique problem with the double lip embouchure.

When I was 7 years old I had a Labrial Frenectomy.

It's a mild dental procedure where the frenum (the human body has several of them) between the front top teeth is excised so these teeth, particularly when the first set of them is replaced by the adult ones, can come together and not form a noticeable cosmetically less appealing space between them.

The procedure was quite benign and successful: an outpatient non-event that has let those teeth come together far closer than they would have without the surgery, but not as close as most other people's front teeth.

Braces solved the rest of the gap, and I, even as a senior adult wear a retainer while I sleep. But literally during the course of the day, the top front two teeth will separate a noticeable few millimeters and my upper lip gums get stuck in there after I pull away the mouthpiece from double lip play.

It's not particularly painful and happens towards the end of a playing session.

I think I may wear my top aligners during practice as well baring any other suggestions.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Ed 
Date:   2025-10-11 23:12

Perhaps just put some folded cigarettes paper over them, much like people do on the bottom as protection for the lower lip.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Erez Katz 
Date:   2025-10-13 06:40

I think folded cigarette paper was a terrible idea back in the day for the lower teeth. In fact, I view at as a teacher's defect to allow students to use that hack instead of fixing the root issue of too much pressure. Teachers that went that path were too fixed on "how does the student sound" as an end-result and not interested enough in what makes a student sound in a particular way.

As for upper teeth... to be honest - it takes time to build the muscles. In my opinion, if you get to a point that the upper teeth are "cutting" into the lip, then it is time to take a break and let the muscles rest and recover. They will.
After a couple of weeks the time you can spend DL increases. There is no need to rush it - because trying to rush it won't work. the muscles will get stronger when they get stronger.

I started to incorporate DL about 6 years ago because I was using too much pressure and while I could remember for a few minutes to ease off the pressure, it is hard to remember NOT to do something, for me anyway. With DL I had physical feedback when I was applying too much pressure.

The Lip muscles should be strong enough to form a firm yet flexible ring that controls the reed and mouthpiece.

There is something wrong in using too hard reeds and then biting on them in order to be able to blast at full volume. It is not a natural way of playing music.

Another advantage I got from DL is that it changed in some way the position of the tip of the mouthpiece and it made articulation much "crisper" and easier for me to play with fast articulation.



Post Edited (2025-10-13 17:18)

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: Ed 
Date:   2025-10-13 16:19

To some degree, I agree with Erez Katz comments about cigarette paper. But, for some players, if the teeth are particularly sharp or uneven, it is a useful aid. For other players who use it as a bit of a crutch because of biting, perhaps it should be the goal to wean away from that.

Ultimately, it is probably best that the goal is to find a comfortable set up that will be comfortable and require less physical effort. That would likely achieve the best musical results. But, it takes time to develop the appropriate muscles and feel to do so.

FWIW- there are lots of thoughts and approaches. I can think of one major player who uses very hard reeds, beyond what I would think possible. A friend attended a masterclass where that player discussed his belief that most players use reeds that are too soft and advocated developing the strength to use much harder set ups.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: David Eichler 
Date:   2025-10-14 02:16

"So I looked up a narrative description of it:

'Joe Allard's single-lip embouchure method emphasizes minimal pressure, lower lip as a cushion, and active facial muscles to promote reed vibration and a free, resonant tone. Key aspects include placing the lower lip stretched over the lower teeth with the lip covering its entire circumference, using the zygomatic major (smile) muscles to gently stretch from the mouth's corners to the cheekbones, and maintaining an even air stream. This approach prevents biting, allows for greater flexibility, and allows the larynx to respond freely to musical imagination'"

Don't know where you got this from, but I dispute some of it. I learned Allard's technique from a former student of his (Victor Morosco). "The smile" is most assuredly not a part of this method, and the only active muscles affecting the reed directly are the chewing muscles and the lower lip. Upper lip, cheeks, etc, are completely relaxed. And you do not curl your lower lip around the mouthpiece, which the smile tends to encourage.

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 Re: My Experience with Double Lip Embouchure
Author: David Eichler 
Date:   2025-10-14 02:21

"I don't really believe in 'no biting' embouchure." You have to use your chewing muscles to control the reed properly. A clarinet/sax embouchure is a controlled bite. The message should be not to bite excessively. Double lip tends to prevent this, since excessive jaw pressure will guaranty serious upper lip discomfort. The Allard single-lip method tends to require practicing several exercises designed to avoid excessive jaw pressure.



Post Edited (2025-10-14 02:24)

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