 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-13 04:47
I am a student (doubler), been playing about two years. Able to play 3rd (barely) in our local concert band.
I have an R13, vandoren M13 mpc, rico 3.5 reed (sanded slightly and broken in).
The setup plays perfectly for my aging body, lots of endurance, full range, easy control over the entire range.
The clarion and altissimo registers are great, sound fantastic, I have full control up to an A, and I practice all my scales and arpeggios up to the high A daily.
I am putting lots of air into the horn, everything works better on wind instruments when you blow. Even though the setup is a bit restrictive, I can get lots of air through the horn, or at least I put into it all it will take.
My problem is the chalemeau register sounds a little honky when I blow hard. It is a noticeably less pleasing tone than the better clarinet players in the section when I blow really loud, it's ok at lower volumes. But in a concert band, playing low volume on 3rd means you might as well go home, you aren't contributing anything. And sitting in front of the trumpet section I can't even hear myself unless I am blowing pretty hard.
I don't know what I am doing wrong, why more open tip mpcs don't work for me, or why my tone down low is terrible.
I feel like my embouchure is likely weak (same problem on trumpet). I chose this setup as the stiffest reed I could put on the most friendly mouthpiece that got me the entire range of the instrument and gave me good endurance using a traditional single lip embouchure.
My criteria had me on a 1.5 at first, and gradually worked up to the 3.5 (which works far better). Not having any joy with stiffer reeds yet though. The 3.5 box has a variety of stiffnesses in it, I am using one of the softest ones.
My teacher plays on a 5RV lyre with a 56 rue lepic 3.5+ (heavily sanded), I can't even make a sound down low on that setup, all I get is air. In the really high registers I can make a banshee ashamed, it goes so loud.
Edit: sorry if it sounds like I am complaining, I am really happy with my progress, and truly love the clarinet, don't regret taking it up for a second. Within my limited technique I can make it sing, it's a beautiful melodic instrument, and I admit I use some vibrato. :-)
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
Post Edited (2025-08-13 05:33)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2025-08-13 05:20
I highly recommend finding Ray Wyant on social media and getting some zoom lessons. He’s really a fantastic person to work with and helps solve so many issues so efficiently.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-08-13 06:15
kurth83 wrote:
> My teacher plays on a 5RV lyre with a 56 rue lepic 3.5+
> (heavily sanded), I can't even make a sound down low on that
> setup, all I get is air. In the really high registers I can
> make a banshee ashamed, it goes so loud.
What does your teacher say about your chalumeau sound? What does he (she?) think you're doing wrong? Do you sound "a little honky" in the chalumeau during your lessons, or only during band rehearsals?
Trying to play loud as an end in itself is usually a waste of energy. "It is a noticeably less pleasing tone than the better clarinet players in the section when I blow really loud, it's ok at lower volumes." There's a big difference between playing "low volume" and playing with a full, controlled, focused sound. Your sound can be full without being "loud." Maybe try to match the "better clarinet players'" volume level, which is probably not forced but not low volume, either. Chances are the "honky" sound when you "blow hard" is caused by either forcing or taking in too much mouthpiece, or a combination of both.
Most players I know who play on an M13 or its equivalent facing use #3.5 or #3.5+ Vandoren reeds or their equivalent. If 3.5 works well for you, there's no need to try to go stiffer. Resistance is different among #3.5 V.12, 56 Rue lepic, V21 and Traditional (thin blank) reeds. One of the four may work better for you than the others without changing strength.
Your teacher should be able to help you sort this out.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-08-13 06:15
Any chance you have a leaking pad or something out of adjustment?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-08-13 06:24
For me it is the balance between the amount of air you use on a given note at a given volume vs the amount of control you use with your embouchure. I bet when you get the GOOD sound in the chalameau if you loosened up your embouchure, it would start to sound honkier. So you take what you learn from that and modify your louder playing.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-13 06:53
Fuzzy, it's new, and professionally setup, and I know how to fix basic leaky pad issues, so pretty sure it's not that.
Paul, you might be on to something, I recall as I get tired it get's honkier. I am still learning when it's time to tighten up and when it's time to loosen up. Clarinet has very different rules than trumpet there.
To experiment I did what you said, I tightened up down low, vs loosening up and the tone was very different, the too loose tone was the bad tone I was complaining about. So I think you nailed it. And kdk you got it right too. I was striving for more volume at the expense of tone.
I have this feeling that if I get stronger I could play a more open tip mpc and get more volume and it would still sound good. But so far I don't have the strength to make them work without using a softer reed which defeats the purpose entirely.
And KDK, nice to know I am about right for reed stiffness, it is a well working setup. I have flexibility and control across the entire range which is really enjoyable to play. I guess I'll have to be content with my volume for now.
So thanks guys. That gets me to sounding decent on the M13 at least.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-08-14 00:41
I think a Rico 3.5 reed is way too soft for an M13 mouthpiece, and is not that great a reed for Classical playing (except as a beginner's reed). I think an M13 needs at least something like a Vandoren 3.5 reed. If you can't get there right away, start with Vandoren #3 and work your way up gradually. If you have some sort of physical limitation that prevents you from playing this kind of set up, I suggest trying a different kind of mouthpiece that is designed to accommodate slightly softer reeds, like a 5RV (not Lyre), B40, B45, B46, etc.
At various times, I have gone through the process of resisting going to a more resistant set up, even though I thought that the result would ultimately be better for what I need, and eventually worked my way into it. It is like any sort of physical activity that requires conditioning, you have to work your way up to greater resistance gradually.
I am not saying that greater resistance is always the way to go, but in your case I think you are clearly using a set up with too little resistance. A close-tip, long-facing mouthpiece like an M13 just needs heavier reeds to work well. And a Rico 3.5 is like a Vandoren 2.5.
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-14 05:25
Thanks David, that kinda confirmed what I thought, that I am a bit weak and need a stiffer reed.
Unfortunately softer reed friendly mouthpieces don't make a reed feel softer, as the wider tip more than compensates and makes (at least to me) the reed feel far stiffer.
I have a box of 56 vandoren 3's and pulled one out today, it is obviously way too soft for me, which is quite a relief maybe I'm not as weak as I thought. It sure does make a lot of tone though, way more than the Rico's ever did, so I think you nailed it to a point. One of those in adequate stiffness would greatly increase my tonal volume from what I can tell.
I think the bottom line is I need to switch to good reeds. I didn't know how much difference it could make. So my Vandoren reed pilgrimage is about to begin.
My teacher is a symphony player and loves the 56's. For her the 3.5+ are barely stiff enough on a 5RV lyre, so I'll start with those, I've ordered some 3.5 and 3.5+ 56's.
Thanks again.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2025-08-16 05:01
Mouthpieces that work with softer reeds aren't necessarily more open. They might have a shorter facing, a more resistant facing curve, different internal design, or some combination of all these, that enable them to balance with somewhat softer reeds. For example, the standard 5RV (not Lyre) is a medium-close facing with a medium-short lay, and it may work well with medium-strength reeds like a Vandoren 3. The resistance and tonal characteristics of the instrument also play a role.
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Author: eac
Date: 2025-08-20 23:35
With all due respect, I would suggest that playing at a low volume as a third clarinet in a concert band is not worthless. Has the conductor requested more volume from the third clarinets? Blend and balance are the goal not who can play the loudest. Concert band is not a volume contest between the clarinets and trumpets. My conductor states that each of us should sound to ourselves about 45% as loud as the person next to us. Work on tone at a lower volume and then explore how to maintain that good tone with volume increases. Try producing a good tone, then find what makes it worse and return to the good sound. What produces a good sound in a lower register will not necessarily produce the best sound in a higher register. Tone should be a priority over volume.
Liz Leckey
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-08-21 05:31
Yeah sorry about that, I was venting. I am happy to play 3rd at all actually.
And that is the lesson here from this thread too, tone over volume.
I don't understand the 45% part, maybe explains why I was feeling frustrated.
Does the clarinet player sitting next to you actually sound louder than you do as a general rule if everyone is playing the same volume? That would explain a lot of why I felt my contribution was lacking, I was trying to match their volume or exceed it, which is what you would do on trumpet. Maybe I'm not as volume challenged as I thought I was.
That's also kind of scary, does that mean they can hear my wrong notes better than I can? Ouch! :-)
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
Post Edited (2025-08-21 06:25)
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Author: eac
Date: 2025-08-22 02:17
I don't think the percentage matters as much as the concept of blending with the section. No one player should really stand or sound out with the exception of one who is playing a "solo" or exposed piece. You will not hear the total sound like the conductor or audience. And you certainly don't want to stand out with a poor sound. Ask your conductor for his/her input.
I always hear my wrong notes more than I think the person next to me can. Just my opinion.
Liz Leckey
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-08-22 17:23
As KDK asked, what view has your teacher taken of the issue? You should also record yourself to hear what the microphone is hearing. Do you have any age-related hearing issues (these might affect your perception)?
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Author: PutnamFellow161
Date: 2025-09-08 21:18
Ray Wyant said that you should never blame your instrument when he plays on a Buffet Tosca. I wouldn’t trust anything he says.
Post Edited (2025-09-08 21:18)
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Author: hans
Date: 2025-09-08 21:56
I agree with graham; record yourself. Your chalumeau tone may be better than you think.
Hans
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-09-09 03:24
I did go to my teacher, after the help you guys game me here. She was out of town for a few weeks which is why I came here.
She said it's pretty good, she told me I should move up to second part.
On another note I gained another note (pun intended), I have a usable Bb above high C now. My end-goal is a double C. Only two half-steps to go. I play all my daily scales and arpeggios up to the Bb now, fun, fun, fun... :-)
As far as Chalumeau goes, it's more about power than tone now. I can control the tone to be just fine after this thread, but I am still lacking some power but it's not terrible. Opening up was not the way, as I learned here.
A stiffer reed and a more open tipped or alternately faced mouthpiece probably is what I need to do, I just have to build up to it, cuz I'm at my limits now.
At my age it isn't clear how far I can go, but I have decent tone, flexibility, and all the range and endurance I could want right now. Will I ever have the power of a pro? Time will tell, my guess is probably not, but I am not unhappy with the tone I am producing now.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-09-18 01:42
So I went over this more with my teacher, I try to imitate her tone basically, and I was not sounding like her.
She said my main tone problem was that I am a little thin, especially up high.
Going through my mouthpiece and reed collection I noticed I sound a lot more like her on a BD2, basically a richer fuller (and darker) tone. It's been a while
since I tried that one, and now I find it easier to play on as well, crossing the break and getting notes to sound is easier across the board than my M13. I also experienced no loss of endurance, which would prevent me from making this change.
So I switched to the BD2 and played it in a rehearsal yesterday (she is our section leader) and for the first time I did not feel underpowered compared to the other players. I had concerns that the rounder darker tone would get lost in a section, but the opposite was true. That combined with the improved ease-of-play is a win win.
For the first time crossing the break is nearing effortless. I didn't know that was possible. It's been a long haul to get here (2+ yrs). Equipment and skill both had to develop, a nice R13 and a good mouthpiece matched to a good reed all contributed a lot.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-09-18 23:24
kurth83 wrote:
> So I switched to the BD2 and played it in a rehearsal yesterday
> (she is our section leader) and for the first time I did not
> feel underpowered compared to the other players. I had
> concerns that the rounder darker tone would get lost in a
> section, but the opposite was true. That combined with the
> improved ease-of-play is a win win.
>
> For the first time crossing the break is nearing effortless. I
> didn't know that was possible. It's been a long haul to get
> here (2+ yrs). Equipment and skill both had to develop, a nice
> R13 and a good mouthpiece matched to a good reed all
> contributed a lot.
You describe what was probably a mismatch between your reeds and the M13 you were using. As a guess, the M13 has a closer-tipped, longer facing than the BD2, so reeds that play well on the Black Diamond may tend to close up on the M13. This would explain a thin-sounding upper register and difficulties across the break (if you clench a little on the reed an M13 is more likely to close up if the reed is too weak). That isn't to say the switch from M13 to BD2 isn't productive. But a reed more accommodated to the M13 facing might have worked better.
Karl
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-09-19 01:01
Yeah that sounds about right, problem is I couldn't play a stiffer reed on the M13 or at least never got one to work, but my existing reeds work nicely on the BD2. Funny how such small differences make or break playing ease, at least for me.
I'm still going through reed alternatives right now as a result of this thread. The 56 rue lepic (3.5) did open up the M13 and I didn't know why, but I had trouble getting the tone I wanted. Those same reeds work well on the BD2 also, but without as much opening up which I think confirms what you are saying.
Since the BD2 gets closer to the tone I am looking for I'll probably stick with it for now.
Thanks for explaining this! Helped a lot.
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-09-19 01:02
Karl,
Hard to know exactly what the BD2 is, based on Vandoren descriptions which are vague at best and sometimes downright contradictory. I saw two places describing the BD2 as having the M13 facing with the "dark" sound of the Black Diamond series. I purchased a BD2 just a few weeks ago figuring it to be a "trial only." When I got it I fell in love with it. For me, it is a copy of the M13 (non-Lyre) but it projects much better........for me. As soon as I blew on it I knew Kessler wasn't getting it back. I am in fact looking forward to the introduction of the BD2 in "High Density." Probably another mouthpiece Kessler won't get back.
...........Paul Aviles
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