 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2025-03-27 04:24
I warm up. I tune. Throat tones almost spot-on in-tune.
Then I play in the upper clarion. Twenty cents sharp. I pull out. Throat tones now flat.
Now I just say eff it and swab the instrument and just put it back in the case.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-03-27 04:48
I was going to ask if you thought you had a 'face for radio'? lol.
I get it. I've been playing quite flat lately, so I just ordered a 64mm barrel. Hopefully that'll do the trick for me.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren BD5 HD 13-series mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren #4 Blue-box reeds
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-27 04:58
Sounds like you are using "throat tension" to focus your sound rather than "fast/concentrated/focused air". Do you also get a lot of "grunt" when articulating in the clarion left hand notes and altisimo?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-27 06:28
I would advise to just be relaxed. The quandary with clarinet tuning is two fold. Firstly, as students or just those of us with stage anxiety, we tend to tense up, bite, put unnecessary energy into the embouchure. The tuning is of course easier (bigger adjustments) going lower by loosening up. So you ideally need “pitch headroom” (ability to move up in pitch) as well as the ability to play lower on the fly. The ONLY way that is possible is to have a slightly relaxed embouchure to start so that YOUR PITCH is kinda in the middle. Of course many clarinetists get away with being scrunched up at the top of their tuning, but I find this to be far from ideal.
……….Paul Aviles
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Author: RefacerMan
Date: 2025-03-27 17:17
A barrel with a reverse taper like a Moennig barrel will help bring down the upper 12ths. What kind of clarinet are you playing and what kind of barrel?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-27 23:47
RefacerMan wrote:
> A barrel with a reverse taper like a Moennig barrel will help
> bring down the upper 12ths.
As I remember, this was the main reason for the taper. Moennig worked mostly with Buffets and they consistently had too wide twelfths at the top of the clarinet.
> What kind of clarinet are you
> playing and what kind of barrel?
You still need to experiment a little to find a barrel with the right taper. Moennig designed the reverse taper to overcome a problem with Buffets, mostly R-13s of the 1950s through the end of his working career. I find that the tuning and response are better with Chaddash Moennig-style barrels on my 10G clarinets (which were adaptations of R-13s) than actual Moennig-Buffet barrels.
Karl
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2025-03-28 04:28
Articulations sound normal with no grunt. Christ, those barrels are expensive. I don't see any taper, it looks the same as the stock barrel.
Setup is a 1997 R-13 B♭, B45, Gonzalez FOF #3, stock barrel, metal ligature.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2025-03-28 12:05
Exactly which throat notes are flat? And which upper clarion notes are sharp? By how much?
There are Apps (I like RTTA tuner) which will produce a chart while you play showing the average tuning of each note.
It would be good to know what the exact tuning issues are in order to figure out what can be done. We might yet get you into show business! :-)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2025-03-29 08:52
So is it not a linear relationship? Like say you're 15 cents sharp on an open G and you pull out and get it tune. Then all the other notes don't go down exactly 15 cents?
And how is a barrel of all things going to help with that?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-29 15:02
No, not linear, relative.
Shorter tube notes are affected to a greater degree than long tube notes.
You are correct, the barrel is not the problem, it is the approach.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-30 09:26
Well that's kinda what we do.
There is no "locking in" to pitch. No instrument is perfectly in tune, nor is the approach to a single note constant across all dynamics.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-03-30 23:54
Johnny Galaga,
You've been dealing with this problem for almost 14 years.
Honestly, I'm not trying to embarrass you. I just can't figure out why this problem you're still having wasn't resolved a long time ago.
https://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/clarion-is-sharp-but-throat-tones-are-flat.23127/
Almost 14 years ago, you tried different mouthpieces. I just don't understand what seems to be your reluctance to try a Moennig (tapered) barrel other than the price.
Would you help me and others to understand?
Thanks.
p.s. Have you tried alternate fingerings? They help by lengthening the short tube notes thus reducing sharpness.
Post Edited (2025-03-31 00:06)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-31 03:57
Johnny Galaga wrote:
> So I basically have to be constantly lipping stuff up and down?
That sounds so petulant!
You make it sound like a curse that will haunt the rest of your playing life.
Yes, you always need to be adjusting to the pitch environment of the moment. No piece of equipment will produce perfect intonation on all notes in all physical and musical settings. It's part of playing well. It isn't any more of an imposition than having to be constantly moving your fingers to play the notes.
Just get on with it and try to enjoy the result.
Karl
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-31 05:35
Karl and Paul,
I feel like I understand Johnny's confusion. If you look at most of the topics on the bboard, we seldom address this fact.
On the other hand, we frequently see discussions about clarinets which are "in tune" with themselves, and picking the right reed/mouthpiece evening out the 12ths, etc.
Other discussions talk about keeping the embouchure consistent. Etc.
Am I being too naive in thinking that a visitor to the forum (even a long term one...?especially? a long term one) might get the impression that something is wrong if they're having to adjust things frequently to stay in pitch?
An honest question...no ill intent meant either way.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-31 08:26
The usual clarinet speak with regard to "in-tune" is relative to the usual vagaries. I think we subconsciously (and routinely) deal with this in an "unspoken" manner. No intent to leave out major issues, it's just part of the whole package. But when (due to the way we play, individually speaking of course) certain horns make the adjustments more difficult, those can be referred to as "less in tune."
For me, a good combination of elements (horn, mouthpiece, reed etc) just makes the process as easy as possible.........NOT automatic.
You must realize that when you're looking at a tuner and the note starts to make the readout go green, that's because you're making a subtle change due to a feedback system.........just like when you blow through the horn and get an atrocious sound, then make some changes to get a much better result.
So, use a tuner (both just sound and just meter) for a dedicated portion of your practice. Eventually the unconscious changes become routine, a habit. Nothing to get worked up about.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-03-31 19:26
As far as instrument and setup are concerned, this can be achieved with enough accuracy these days to virtually eliminate it as an issue.
'Lipping' up and down is not how slight adjustments of pitch are achieved - at least not by good players!
Fancy barrels are unnecessary but a great way to make money if you can market them successfully!
Worshipping a tuner will mostly lead to loss of sleep and much confusion.
What to do?
The OP has not told us what instrument or setup he uses. We then need to know the level of experience. Everything described points to less experience so I would suggest finding a good teacher who can check setup, instrument and technique . Commenting here is otherwise likely to create more confusion.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2025-03-31 23:06
symphony1010,
In his 2nd posting above, Johnny Galaga revealed the following about his equipment:
Setup is a 1997 R-13 B♭, B45, Gonzalez FOF #3, stock barrel, metal ligature.
Also, I'd appreciate it if you would define enough accuracy.
I distinctly remember a response from John Moses concerning what was most important about playing the clarinet. His response was Intonation! Intonation! Intonation! three times in a row.
Another thing to take into consideration is that your definition of "enough accuracy" may be way out of bounds for another player. I may be wrong, however I believe small ensembles playing with instruments having one cent off tuning would be sensed by the audience.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-04-01 01:21
so........you make no accommodations when playing a note at ppp vs FF?
That must be some set up ya got there!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-01 03:37
IMO Some possible options, all just thoughts
Throat notes are sharp, IMO buffets have a bit of variance here, gross generalisation the harder the key is to remove the more variance.
. Paint in the tone hole
. Use insulation tape at the top of the hole and gets progressively smaller
.depending on your horn it could end up with the Bb being sharpish and the G# and A being about right.
I use a Playnick mouthpiece (non-zinner), IMO Zinner blanks are generally a little flatter around the throat notes and on polycylindricals play IMO a bit more in tune. Mouthpiece that works for you.... the old story...
Potentially biting?
Chinese nasty clarinet????
Need to vent???
Choice of barrel, sooo many options
Try a spacer in the barrel gap
Try a firmer embouchure. IMO too loose an embouchure tends to allow the variance in the clarinet to show through and other problems tone, pitch etc
Throat open/closed/tightness, this fixed approach leads to problems. See below;
Simply the throat is a fixed cartilage, we have no control over it, this is basic anatomy.
As per below.
Peter Clinch did research in about 1980, UNSW virtually replicated this research in early 2000s.
The research demonstrated that;
What is really happening is that at the bottom of each register the tongue is up and forward. As you play up the register the tongue moves down and back. Next register same thing and so on.
If your tongue position is incorrect, it can result in;
.poor tuning
.squeaks
.mis-pitch
.poor sound
.etc
I still have all the exercises, if I can find them and you want them let me know.
Peter Clinch was a genius... another sorely missed.
Maybe join the chorus line:)
Post Edited (2025-04-01 03:49)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-01 11:06
I'm not going to go into individual points that are being made here but suffice to say that the majority of professional players using a top-end instrument wouldn't be using it if it was inherently out of tune!
A good example of an R13 from the 90s will have some known issues that a good player will compensate for but, generally, the 12ths will be fine, which is one of the most important factors.
It would be helpful to know at what level contributors here are operating. My background is as a pro player and I have worked with orchestras across the UK. I am now semi-retired as a player but I'm still active both as a player and conductor.
If a player has a serious issue with an instrument that professionals are mainly reasonably happy with then they need to seek guidance from an appropriate source.
For my purposes the modern clarinet is vastly superior in terms of tuning and evenness compared to instruments I played in my youth.
I don't wish to offend but many of the posts here are so wide of the mark that they only shriek amateur or amount to the thoughts of someone who is completely overthinking the normal challenges a clarinet presents.
Post Edited (2025-04-01 11:45)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-04-01 18:27
but you say lipping up and down is not how you make subtle adjustments to pitch.
might I ask
how do professionals make minor adjustments to pitch?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-01 19:20
Lipping up and down suggests a degree of bite which only closes the aperture.
It is vital for good sound that the aperture between reed and mouthpiece tip is as open as the pitch of the note will allow.
Those of us on this side of the pond (UK) often go with thinking vocally and vowel sounds are a starting point. Thinking Aah in the lowest register will assist in providing the most open sound but the ear must judge the centre of sound and pitch.
In the upper register the formation of Eeeee will give just enough support and shape to the embouchure without 'biting.'
The highest notes need something like Ich! Hard to write but easy to say. You might say maximum smile, still with no bite.
All of this has everything to do with playing in tune. Centred sound matched to a well setup instrument. On a Buffet R13 Bb at A=440 we use the 66mm barrel and in normal professional usage all we be good. Normally pulling out will be limited to 1-2mm and throat notes will be set to play in tune with added fingers, according to taste.
The method I suggest above is a great simplification and other factors need to be considered. Unlike some American players the English style encourages great flexibility through the use of softer reeds and often medium long mouthpiece lays.
The point that must be emphasised is that this is a vocal approach. You hear in your head the pitch and sound you wish to produce and the setup is a conduit to producing the desired result. Measurement and laboured thinking about the placement of the tongue does not feature in the English style as I know it. Certainly no biting or as coarse an expression as lipping up or down.
Emma Johnson mentions some of this here https://www.emmajohnson.co.uk/resonance/
Post Edited (2025-04-02 01:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-04-01 21:12
Thank you for that. I know there is some longstanding issues that I have with the idea of the tongue being the arbiter of tone and pitch. One "proof" proffered from time to time is the live x-ray video where the fellow doing the demo says "EEEE Yaaaa) showing the tongue moving DOWN for the "yaaaa." Then he plays and you get all the associated changes we all know and love.
However
If you look at where the lip/teeth are applying pressure on the reed in the demo you notice they move up and down as well. I contend THAT is the main (and really only) mechanism of tone and pitch. Since infancy we are so used to having the combined efforts of all our oral structures to create sound, that separating them out is quite a challenge.
I would only try to support my contention this way:
Lock in to your sound and pitch (eee, aaah.......whatever), concentrating on a rock steady posture and pressure of lips and teeth, and once again, DON'T change your tone or pitch. NOW wriggle your tongue around in your mouth, bounce it forward and back, up and down. You should notice that nothing whatsoever changes with the pitch OR the timbre.
This is why I speak of the embouchure pressure.
Now just one more pass at the original post. If you are actually seeing a 15 cent change in pitch from one moment to the next, the mechanism is NOT going to have anything to do with the barrel. It is going to be how much "energy" or pressure is exerted upon the reed as well as the point at which that pressure is exerted.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-02 01:05
I would again note the mentioned research which actually shows what happens😬
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