 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-11-27 09:11
I found an R13 Prestige A that I almost bought. Great sound and feel.
However, some of the 12ths were off by 20 cents, especially e/B. This turned me off. I'm just wondering what others would find acceptable or unacceptable, as my search continues.
Thanks
Joe
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-27 12:19
According to Clark Fobes a well tuned and adjusted Buffet R-13 is about 5 cents flat on the first register upper E, and about 5 cents sharp on the corresponding second register upper B - thus 10 cents disparity in total. I don't have personal experience either about the R-13 Bb's or A's, so can't say if perhaps the A's are generally "wilder" in tuning - but 20 cents sounds as quite a lot.
Of course also your mouthpiece can play a role, but if your choice in that regard tunes well on a R-13 Bb, then it probably should tune at least similarly also on an A.
See Clark Fobes's article here: https://www.clarkwfobes.com/pages/tuning-and-voicing-the-clarinet
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-11-27 19:28
Thanks for this interesting article. I use a Fobes mouthpiece and bought clarinets from Clark back in the day when he was a Buffet dealer. Anyway, yes 20 cents is too high. I was most interested in finding what the "cutoff" might be, and it seems like 10 cents is about right.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-11-28 07:06
JoeRomano wrote:
"I found an R13 Prestige A that I almost bought. Great sound and feel.
However, some of the 12ths were off by 20 cents, especially e/B. This turned me off. I'm just wondering what others would find acceptable or unacceptable, as my search continues."
1. The problem may be corrected by undercutting the corresponding tone hole - needs to be done by a VERY qualified tech who is preferably a good player too.
2. If the instrument is dry, the tuning may change slightly after it absorbs some water.
3. Many players use the C/G# key or the side Eb/Bb key with the E and thumb F...
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-11-28 09:14
The further down the clarinet tube you get, the more difficult it becomes to affect the 12ths. Especially E/B since it vents out the bell and not a tonehole.
Some things that can affect it are of course the bell itself, but also the barrel and mouthpiece. The location/length/taper/venting of the register key also affects the 12ths. There’s things good techs can do to mitigate issues, however it’s of course always best to be starting with an instrument that plays as in tune as possible before modifications.
A real mind bender of a fact is how undercutting a tonehole affects the lower and upper 12ths to different degrees. One is raised more than the other, though of course I can’t remember the specific details offhand. It may be somewhere in the Fobes article which is FANTASTIC but very in depth.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-28 14:27
RBlack, I think the OP had the first register upper E, not the lower E in mind. In the latter case, even an around 14 cents disparity could be considered as a well tuned R-13, according to Fobes article (even a bit more for the low F/C5/C'').
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-28 20:39
If you mean low E in relation to B, then that's normal for clarinets - it's better to have the upper B (and C) in tune than the low E (and F) which are purposely flat. That's the way clarinets work and you'll just have to live with it.
If you mean E/B with LH1 (and obviously your left thumb), then the E/B tonehole (the small vent in between LH1 and LH2 ring keys) can always be enlarged to bring those notes up to pitch - you'll have to remove the LH2 ring key to do that and have it done by someone who knows what they're doing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-11-29 04:50
Yes, I mean the E/B with LH1. Wouldn't that have the effect of raising both
pitches. The discrepancy between the two wouldn't change much, or am I wrong?
In any case, I did not purchase that particular instrument, but all of this is very helpful in terms of when I consider the next one.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-11-29 04:57
Ah okay I misinterpreted which E/B was in question, though I believe what I said is still relevant to all the 12ths.
Out of curiosity was your problem wide or narrow? As in the E was flat and the B was sharp, or vice versa?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-29 05:16
Which note out of the two is better tuned according to your tuner - the lower register E or the upper register B?
Tapering and undercutting or filling in the tonehole and undercutting will most likely help things, but the 12ths on clarinets can vary from one make or model to the next but there aren't any that are dead perfect as they're not equal temperament instruments - a 12th (3rd harmonic) on an equal temperament tuner isn't the same as a natural 12th which is what you'll have with any wind instrument.
I once let a trumpet professor try a Selmer 530 bugle (in essence a flugelhorn without the valve section) I once had and he got out his tuner and said the 5ths weren't in tune when looking at the needle. They simply won't be in tune with a tuner calibrated to equal temperament and I'm not sure why he even said that if he was meant to be a trumpet professor.
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/c/p/Selmer-Clairon-Bugle-x70442232.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-11-29 08:29
the e was maybe 5 cents flat, but the b was at least 15 sharp, so a discrepancy of at least 20 cents. Thanks for your input.
Of course, one can't expect perfection, but on my R13 Prestige Bb, the discrepancy is less than 5 cents.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-29 17:30
It's much easier to flatten a sharp note than it is to sharpen a flat note, especially in the upper register where there's more flexibility.
How is the tuning of the exact same pitch notes (Concert C#/Db-G#/Ab) on your Bb clarinet? At least with Eb/Bb on your Bb clarinet, you have more fingering options compared to E/B on your A clarinet.
Have you tried the upper register B with just LH finger 2 on your A clarinet (Sp.Th.oxo|ooo)? That could be a flatter sounding fingering. That's a fingering I like to use on my Selmers when going from B up to 3rd register D (as it's smoother) and makes an easy A-B trill (fingering A and trilling with LH1 for the B) without any pad slap noise from the LH2 ring key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2024-11-29 22:09)
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2024-11-29 18:35
On my Bb, the 12ths are within 5 cents, not 20. Yes, that's a nice alternate fingering.
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