 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-22 00:30
I'm fed up of people not even questioning poor build quality and blaming themselves when the instrument is clearly to blame. It's not their fault, it's just their high expectations.
I wish players knew that the majority of all brand new clarinets sold are defective in one way or other and there's always room for improvement instead of barrelling on regardless with something they're not completely happy with and most are only going on the recommendation of their teacher, professor or peer pressure.
Some teachers and professors are very scheming and only recommend specific instruments bought from specific shops as they get some form of commission as a result and use their reputation as a weapon to hold the shops to ransom.
Just because something is highly respected doesn't always mean it's going to be good as one size doesn't fit all - the holy grail of instruments may have potential but most have to be reworked to reach that potential. And sometimes that holy grail of instruments is unsuitable for the player, who in turn believes they have no other choice in the matter.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-11-22 05:53
I hope my dissatisfaction thread didn't inspire this post?
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-11-22 06:52
It is frustrating, and really SHOULDN’T be the case, but new instruments come in conditions ranging from not ideal, to downright unplayable.
Last year I tested out a flagship model from a big French brand, and was shocked at its condition. My old R13 played rings around it.
Near the end of summer I worked on a Buffet Festival (only a couple years old) that had toneholes in appalling condition.
If even the big brands and expensive models are not exempt, then what hope can anyone have?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-22 11:25
I think that with some kinds of musical instruments, there has long been an attitude that after you buy it new, then you have it adjusted to your personal preference. On string instruments this is often the case with the string height above the fingerboard. Some people like it as low as possible, while others like it a bit higher. Hence the instrument often comes with the action higher than anyone would EVER want, making it virtually unplayable. With clarinets that personal adjustment might apply to the spring tension... but really nothing else. I rather suspect that this long standing notion that the buyer should naturally have their instrument adjusted post-purchase for legitimate reasons, has led to a somewhat lazy and negligent approach to the whole business by manufacturers.
The lines between reasons and excuses have a way of sliding into a comfortable place.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-22 16:47
It is always amazing to consider the prices of the new instruments and that many players end up spending considerably more to make it playable. There are often issues with pads, key fitting, toneholes and more. You would think that for the cost, the instrument would be flawless. Can you imagine buying a new car and then having to spend to make it run?
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-22 20:35
I completely agree with the line of reasoning here but it brought up for me a somewhat tangential question that it is not my intention to derail this line of thought with:
People have said that Yamaha Professional Clarinets are remarkable good and consistent right out of the box. If so, I would be interested in knowing what Yamaha is doing--if anyone does indeed know--from differences in manufacturing process to quality control to achieve such results.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-22 21:52
Quote:
People have said that Yamaha Professional Clarinets are remarkable good and consistent right out of the box.
It has been a while since I tried new clarinets, but a number of years back I went into a shop and was trying Yamaha clarinets. I played a few that I took out of the original packaging myself. After trying each, I recall saying that I could have walked out on stage and played a concert with any of them.
I am not sure if that is still the situation or not, but it was remarkable quality control.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-22 22:19
Yamaha are far more quality control conscious than other makers across the board where their instruments are concerned (although they're not completely infallible), but they can still make improvements here and there by using better silencing materials that are better suited to their applications, backing off the spring tensions on open standing keys as well as bringing in the RH pinky touchpieces on their student level clarinets to reduce the stretch.
If you think high end Buffets are priced into oboe territory, then they should have that level of attention given to them as you'd expect from a high end product. As previously mentioned about the new car analogy, you expect a flawless finish and a reliable product from the word go and not having to have significant work done within the guarantee period, either covered by the manufacturer's warranty or out of your own pocket.
While there are grumblings going on in several threads, I'm basing this topic more on personal experience as a repairer when the high expectation of owners is completely undermined by the problems they're having with instruments they've spent good money on only to be disappointed, to the point of some even completely regretting their decisions because the instrument they bought happens to be the most popular, most hyped, most highly recommended, or they were simply duped into buying it by a ruthless and unscrupulous seller and felt duty bound to leaving the shop with something they were coerced into buying.
Don't be that person who falls for any old spiel as it's your money you're spending, not anyone else's - try everything out and if your teacher or professor disowns you for not sticking to their ideal regardless if your choice is better suited to you and not the choice they made for you, then find a more open-minded teacher/professor pronto.
Let's just say whenever I have a Buffet clarinet come to me for work which I've not previously worked on, I just sigh and say to myself "Oh gawd - here we go again!" as I know I'm going back to square one again with that one. The Tosca I'm currently servicing, like the majority of Buffets with metal tenon rings, needs the tenon rings rebuilt as the joints rock like anything which only bumps up the price by a significant amount to correct that problem - a problem you shouldn't even have on what is touted as a high end clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-11-23 16:45
I've heard it said that the French manufacturers can't give the time to fully finish and check even the expensive instruments. I stress I only hear this as a rumour.
The conclusion is that for top players the instruments are therefore not expensive enough. I don't have a strong feeling about spring tension because that's player preference. Pad coverage is another matter and this means tone hole finishing MUST be exemplary. I don't expect the wood to move as much on the tenons with the high-end instruments and I've stopped recommending new E13 student instruments precisely because these take so long to settle and require repeated journeys to a good technician. Instead, my students useably buy a carefully selected, older instrument.
I would love to speak to Buffet about these things as I used to do with Boosey and Hawkes many years ago. Indeed by R13 Prestige instruments were bought at a time when Boosy actually owned Buffet and the result was a choice of 12 Bbs and 12 As with Boosey's top person adjusting as I went along. That amount of choice seems now to be impossible.
Nevertheless, I'm very interested in the new Festivals and would be interested to see if things have improved.
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2024-11-23 17:39
I must agree with Chris's observation about Yamaha clarinets. The quality control I have experienced with my Yamahas has been superior to every other brand I have owned. The only clarinets I've owned which came close to the quality of the Yamahas was a set of R13s made in the early '60's.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: gwie
Date: 2024-11-23 22:35
Yamaha's quality control is excellent, and any adjustments that have to be made on the dealer end are usually very minimal. I've been fortunate to obtain my last few sets of clarinets from their Atelier, and their team is absolutely top-notch when it comes to setup.
For Backun, I've been sending students to Miles DeCastro (North Country Winds), who is also their USA warranty technician. Every instrument I've gotten from him, including the Alpha student models, has been set up exceptionally well.
As I get older, I find myself much less willing to sit through the hours-long process of testing dozens of improperly-setup instruments at a shop, hoping for the chance that the stars will align and one of them will be decent. I fully subscribe to Lohff & Pfeiffer's concept that "good clarinets are not found, but made" and that any quality professional model clarinet can be properly setup to function how it is supposed to. I thought my Yamaha CSVR's were great when they were new, but L&P's last overhaul made them exceptional.
Post Edited (2024-11-26 07:09)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-24 00:48
I can't help but feel there's something characteristically Parisian about Buffet's laissez-faire attitude to how they offer their instruments. When eating out in Paris the food is generally excellent, but your plate is often dumped in front of you like it were a dog's dinner. Coffee is similarly served with attitude, leaving you to drink most of it out of the saucer. They love serving things like this. It's kind of an art form they cultivate much like everything else they do. If they knew I that was English, it would be special treatment and completely understandable, but I pass for Spanish much more easily, so I figure I'm not getting preferentially abusive treatment. I don't think that anybody really understands Parisians, but they are the creators of a truly magical city.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-11-24 03:29
Re: Yamaha's QC,
I was told by a very reputable shop owner/tech (who is also a dealer) that Yamaha have techs who check the instruments in their warehouse before they get sent to the dealers, while Buffet is relying on the dealers to correct any problems.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-11-24 03:29
Re: Yamaha's QC,
I was told by a very reputable shop owner/tech (who is also a dealer) that Yamaha have techs who check the instruments in the warehouse before they get sent to the dealers, while Buffet is relying on the dealers to correct any problems.
That's why going to a small shop/dealer is preferable to buying from internet. Even if the price is higher, in a small shop the owner (or their tech) would thoroughly check the instrument and customize it for the client- springs tension adjusted, keyworks adjustment (if needed).
Post Edited (2024-11-24 03:35)
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-11-24 15:22
M1964 said "Buffet is relying on the dealers to correct any problems." I'm not familiar with Buffet instruments, but it was stated somewhere on this board, in another thread, that Buffet expects the dealer to finish setting up its instruments. So, it's not Buffet failing in quality control, but the dealers. That doesn't seem to be most people's understanding. So what's the truth?
Here in London, Howarth used to quote a MRRP (Maunfacturer's Recommended Retail Price) for their instruments and their own retail price, which was considerably lower. Howarth's retail price generally matched that of other retailers. The lower price must, of course, include a profit margin. This is something we see across retail, making buyers think they're getting a bargain. Perhaps the gap between Buffet's MRRP and actual retail prices was originally intended to fund the set-up of instruments and still leave a profit for the retailer. What's happened is that all retailers have been forced to the lower price, leaving little fund set-up. Set-up thus become something the buyer pays for.
From what people are saying about needing to adjust spring tension etc. Isn't that sort of thing more customisation, rather than set-up? Where ought we draw the line between set-up and customisation? Another distinction might be made between manufacturing faults, such chipped tone holes, and pad seating. Buffet might expect retailers to finalise pads seating occasionally, if necessary, but I don't think it should pass poor wood maching to a dealer.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-11-24 20:24
JTJC wrote:
> M1964 said "Buffet is relying on the dealers to correct any
> problems." I'm not familiar with Buffet instruments, but it was
> stated somewhere on this board, in another thread, that Buffet
> expects the dealer to finish setting up its instruments. So,
> it's not Buffet failing in quality control, but the dealers.
> That doesn't seem to be most people's understanding. So what's
> the truth?
...
> From what people are saying about needing to adjust spring
> tension etc. Isn't that sort of thing more customisation,
> rather than set-up? Where ought we draw the line between set-up
> and customisation? Another distinction might be made between
> manufacturing faults, such chipped tone holes, and pad
> seating. Buffet might expect retailers to finalise pads seating
> occasionally, if necessary, but I don't think it should pass
> poor wood maching to a dealer.
Well, a good Buffet dealer will do both final set-up and customization on the spot- you go in a shop, choose your instrument (which they already looked over before you came) and tell the owner what, if anything, you would like to change. You can go get your coffee or stay in the shop while the owner sorts things out for you.
At least, that was my experience buying clarinets in different shops in Europe.
Regarding chipped tone holes: Buffet now installs tone hole inserts made of Greenline material in Legende (maybe in other models), and I just watched a video in which a player says that Selmer does a similar thing with their Signature and Privilege models (and I think Muse too).
Hopefully, this technology will be available on a less expensive models.
You can expect, however, that after a week (or a month of playing), a problem(or two) may appear, not unique to Buffets, such as tenon swelling (I had it with both Selmer and Buffet, saw it with LeBlanc too), a pad suddenly do not seal perfectly- all correctable and can be expected except possibly instruments made of Greenline or other synthetic materials.
Post Edited (2024-11-24 20:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-25 04:22
Greenline tenons will probably shear off before they've had the chance to bind.
While Greenline tonehole bushes may be fitted to some models, they're still far from perfect, although they do make the perfect hole punches to cut out neat discs from the pads seating against them given how razor sharp Buffet insist on making them.
I had an E12F sent to me as a free replacement for an absolute shocker of an E11F which was beyond repair due to a serious manufacturing defect where none of the toneholes and tonehole bedplaces lined up with each other making it impossible to repad (not to mention those push-fit pillars they ran with which dropped out like loose teeth), but the E12F had far more pad friendly tonehole crowns with much smoother, rounded-off 'German'-style bedplace crowns that won't tear the leather pads fitted to it to shreds. The thin gauge bit of sheet brass for the LH lever screw threads isn't a good thing though as that makes it more prone to knackering up the screw heads when trying to remove them as there's not much to grip onto without the pliers slipping and doing damage
But aww - they tried.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-26 14:28
Just regarding Buffet's retail pricing policy, Michael Lowenstern wrote the following in one of his recent newsletters: "Buffet Crampon USA makes all dealers agree to not advertise prices below a minimum price. This is why everyone has the same price listed online for new Buffet instruments."
Further, on his Website he tells about his Buffet Tosca basses: "As I do with all my horns, I have them stripped down and worked over... We check tone holes, adjust spring tensions, reseat pads and regulate keys." As he continues, it reduces his profit (understandably), but still he isn't charging extra but sells his Buffets for their required minimum price (or sometimes even with a "hidden" rebate, as for the time being).
I understand this Buffet price policy to be global, not just for the US. As I gather, the degree of post-factory adjustments (or even "re-build") varies greatly between dealers. Thus I don't think Buffet has actually "outsourced" the finishing of their instruments to their dealers (at least not officially, albeit that is what actually happens). Accordingly it would be up to the latter, either not adjusting/rebuilding at all, or to what extent they are doing it.
Such a QC policy would of course be extremely hazardous for any company, paving the way for their competitors with proper such policies. Buffet however has still remained the market leader for quite a bit of time, on other merits.
A true game changer would probably be a competitor challenging successfully both those other merits, and that lacking Buffet QC. I'm actually following with some interest how the recent Backun basses are received in this regard, and their possible "knock-out" effect on the Buffet bass market. So far I'm noticing dealers with a growing number of Buffet basses in stock, where they just about a year or so ago had a delivery time of maybe 6 months or similar.
Post Edited (2024-11-26 20:47)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-27 12:26
To what extent can one reasonably assume that a good tech can get a new Buffet performing as expected. Ie. What is the consistency between instruments assuming all regulation issues have been taken care of ?
Given the regulation issues liable to hinder the testing of a new Buffet, this strikes me as something of a key question.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-27 17:56
A very good question indeed, Julian. According to both Michael Lowenstern and Lohff & Pfeiffer, well post-factory finished and regulated Buffets are usually very consistent from one to another. Thus those customers at some other dealers going through like 10 instruments to find only one good one may actually just have found a well regulated one. This probably applies as well to factory visits as to some dealers with a large stock, but without setting up their instruments as thoroughly as desirable.
Post Edited (2024-11-27 18:09)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-27 18:59
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> A very good question indeed, Julian. According to both Michael
> Lowenstern and Lohff & Pfeiffer, well post-factory finished and
> regulated Buffets are usually very consistent from one to
> another. Thus those customers at some other dealers going
> through like 10 instruments to find only one good one may
> actually just have found a well regulated one. This probably
> applies as well to factory visits as to some dealers with a
> large stock, but without setting up their instruments as
> thoroughly as desirable.
>
>
> Post Edited (2024-11-27 18:09)
...a comment and question.
The comment: I think Mike L. and L&P both respected and reputable. I'd have to think they know what they're talking about.
But at the side time I can't help but recognize the possibility for bias in that a fair number of instruments sales here are done off site, where a range of instruments can't be tried in the shop at roughly the same time to compare them, and such offsite methods of sale could incentivize those standing to profit from them to seek to position their wares as, once worked on prior to sale, as consistent commodities of near equal value, like common shelf products whose consistently and quality control we've come to rely on from Ivory soap to Oreo cookies.
Question: who, if anyone, works on the clarinets, say, that appear in Buffet showrooms like the one in NY?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-27 20:34
Quote:
Question: who, if anyone, works on the clarinets, say, that appear in Buffet showrooms like the one in NY?
Over the years there have been various good techs who have worked at the Buffet showroom. I am not sure who is the current person. They were always very receptive to the players needs.
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2024-11-27 20:55
The Buffet Showroom in NYC has been closed for a number of years, it was managed by the wonderful Laurie Orr.
The onsite tech when I picked out a Prestige RC and an 1193 low c bass about 14 years ago was Kristin Bertrand, later followed by Melanie Wong.
AB
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-11-28 06:57
Micke Isotalo wrote:
"... According to both Michael Lowenstern and Lohff & Pfeiffer, well post-factory finished and regulated Buffets are usually very consistent from one to another. Thus those customers at some other dealers going through like 10 instruments to find only one good one may actually just have found a well regulated one. This probably applies as well to factory visits as to some dealers with a large stock, but without setting up their instruments as thoroughly as desirable."
When trying multiple clarinets of the same model, I was told by two Buffet/Selmer dealers(one in Paris, another in Spain) that "all clarinets will play slightly differently", and that "the tone and tuning may change when you get home due to different climate/humidity level".
All those clarinets were looked over/checked.
I tried four clarinets of which two definitely had a better tone and response, and form those two I chose mine.
And no, it did not change after a transatlantic fright but it did have one tenon swelled slightly
Post Edited (2024-11-28 06:59)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-28 11:29
Perhaps the " Quest for the Holy Grail " aspect of buying a Buffet adds an extra dimension to the relationship a musican tends to have with it. It's something which may actually favor Buffet in a strange way.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-28 19:02
Julian ibiza wrote:
> Perhaps the " Quest for the Holy Grail " aspect of buying a
> Buffet adds an extra dimension to the relationship a musican
> tends to have with it. It's something which may actually favor
> Buffet in a strange way.
>
I think what you mean by this...and if so I agree, is that in Buffet's inconsistency we are sent ao a psychological scavenger hunt, if you will, to find one of the gems.
Regardless, what interests me is if the Crème de la crème of Buffet clarinet finds exceeds the mere consistency of most Yamahas?
To rephrase the question, we seem to agree that Yamaha's are consistent and very good. But is their very good on par with that "Holy Grail" of a Buffet instrument, properly made and setup?
Is it worth the time for the search?
I also wonder if this analogy holds (to some extent): Legere reeds are to Yamaha clarinets as a great Vandoren reed is to a holy grail Buffet clarinet.
With Legere, maybe it isn't your best cane, but with Legere you get consistency and most of what you'd expect in your best cane, if not all.
Post Edited (2024-11-28 20:38)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-28 20:32
And when someone finds their 'The Holy Grail' Buffet and buy it at the wrong time of year and play it to death in the first few weeks and it cracks, they then get a replacement top joint and it's no longer the same clarinet they chose as it's effectively a new clarinet and they have to go through the whole playing in thing again, only this time the weather's worse and they split the replacement top joint, only to have to go through the whole process yet again.
That's not to say Buffets are the only clarinets that crack, but they are the most common clarinets having crack repairs or top joint transplants done.
As I've said before, it's better to have a cracked top joint repaired than replaced with a new one as that way, it's still the same top joint that you chose when whittling your choice down to the one clarinet.
Although fairly often, people will buy a brand new pro level Buffet without even trying it first and expecting good things, then putting up and shutting up as they now have the Buffet they were told to buy even if it's not properly set up. I've seen people with their brand new Buffets where the ring key heights are all over the place and usually set far too high, or the LH F/C key feels spongy and has a ton of lost motion as well as a multitude of other sins. But it's new and it's a Buffet and that's all that matters.
Every make and model of clarinet sold through a woodwind specialist should have gone through the workshop before being sold, but the reality is they rarely do and online retailers often send out instruments still in the same packaging they were in when they left the factory with bugger all done to them in the interim - they may be undercutting other retailers in price, only that means there's still a price to pay for saving yourself a few pennies.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2024-11-28 20:33)
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2024-11-30 21:12
I also tried a few Yamahas and Buffets a few years back, The Buffets were a bit stuffy and inconsistent among the different models. The Yamahas all seemed to be more easier blowing and no adjustments were needed so played great right out of the box. A few years later I got hold of a new Amati pro model full boehm and it also played very well in tune right out of the box. over the years Its had one visit to the shop for maintenance only, along with my Amati Eb Pro. Many people frown on Amati, probably because its not one of the big players. I got rid of the Buffet Eb and aquired the Amati Eb Pro, due to the buffet being too resistant and constant struggle with intonation. I've had great success with the amati. I double as a flute player with Gemeinhardt being my favorite over yamaha.
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