 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-18 14:03
I will start the ball rolling for this discussion by the following "don't": Don't conduct an advanced player. By doing so, you are preventing him from delivering his own interpretation and making his own choices. There are Youtube videos of Brymer and Russianooff teaching; both great teachers. But they seem to conduct everything. Chamber music is conductorless.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2024-11-18 17:13
Don't sing the passage while the student is playing it.
Don't stop the student too often;let them play a section of the music, then give comments.
jsclater@comcast.net
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-11-18 17:19
Depends on what what you mean by an advanced player. Even very good - I would call them advanced - young players with little exposure to music outside their school music groups have limited ideas about "meaning" in or of music and at best realize markings like ritardando and crescendo (and their opposites) minimally because "it says to" on the page. They often need to be encouraged *as they play* to do more if that's what's appropriate. Gestures (whether standard conducting ones or not) are the most convenient way to do this, far better, I think, than shouting over them "more...more" or "slower...slower" when their own initial "interpretation" is to do little or nothing.
Much of learning is based on imitation and, so, much of teaching needs to be based on modelling. I think the gestures can reinforce what the teacher has probably already modelled by playing or singing the passage first.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-18 18:36
Karl; I absolutely agree. As long as the teacher doesn't do it all of the time. The sooner tge student becomes a little self-reliant, the better. I mentioned lessons given by Russianoff and Brymer. The students in these video-taped lessons are students of some of the world's top conservatories.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-11-18 19:07
Don't give too many instructions at the time. Like "play this a little bit quicker, try to make articulation clear, don't forget to have a crescendo here and make this note a bit longer than others" ( Phrasing, articulation, speed and accuracy can be different tasks to work separately)
Don't be too demanding on achieving some goal. It can be frustrating for students to work on a couple of bars for an hour and can bring down their mood and motivation
Don't insult and beat students ( just joking)
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2024-11-18 21:13
Don't think what works for one student will work for another - each student is an individual and will need coaching in a different way.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-19 01:02
Don't criticize the previous teachers the student has had. It is is petty and can be hurtful to the student.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2024-11-19 01:08
I would say it's counterproductive to assume that what doesn't work for you or your teachers doesn't work for another teacher, especially a great one. I don't see much point to second guessing a master teacher's methodology on a decades old video. What you see in a masterclass video is not necessarily what they did all the time in lessons and rehearsals - maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The times were different, the students were different. A lot of things are better now with music education and life in general. Some are worse. Many are the the same. Context matters. It's so easy to judge history without thinking about context. I very much prefer to look for new concepts or approaches in that kind of video and think about how I might apply them to my situations. That seems a much better use of time spent watching than nitpicking from a great distance.
That said it's refreshing to see a conversation about teaching here, and I'm sure there will be some excellent points brought up in regards to the broader topic. I'll be thinking about it this week for sure.
Anders
Post Edited (2024-11-20 00:53)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-11-19 04:29
Good topic!
There are a few overarching important ones that come to mind:
1. Treat every student as an individual. (Sorry for not framing in the "don't" format! I guess it would be "Don't not treat every student as an individual...") So I wouldn't say "Don't conduct" or "Don't sing" because these things might work well for some students.
2. Keep the relationship professional. There should be professional boundaries in place: students aren't friends, confidants, etc. Many women have horror stories about boundaries in the teacher/student relationship being crossed. But even as a man, I've had teachers (some in very prestigious positions) complain about orchestra colleagues, gossip about mutual acquaintances, and so forth.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-19 10:24
Don't be inaccessible to the sentiments and doubts of the student, as the element of mutual respect is fundamental to the dynamics of all working relationships. Things which need to be said are things which are in turn worthy of just consideration .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2024-11-19 12:22
Don't prioritise mastery of any single piece or passage over a)love of music and playing their instrument and b) general progress on a range of fundamentals over time
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-11-20 02:16
I studied 4 years with Russianoff in the '70s and don't recall him "conducting" me very much (if at all?). It was a long time ago, though.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-11-20 06:47
Don't criticize previous teachers? If a teacher thinks another teacher is giving bad instruction, they should absolutely say so. How seriously a student should take such comments depends upon how authoritative they are, that is, whether the teacher making those comments has very considerable experience and training.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-20 09:49
Tom H: The greats teach very differently in master classes and in private. When you teach a master class, it is necessarily at least a bit for the sake of the audience. You have to put on a bit of a show.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-20 11:08
As to conducting, there is a region in Africa which I forget, in which the villagers form a circle in which the women dance ( usually individually) briefly, very energetically and beautifully dressed. If they are particularly good dancers, they will often move into the circle and stand there rooted in a ' Come on guys...let's see what you've got!' message to the drummers. The drummers then up their act accordingly and everybody goes to the max. It seems to me that the relationship between conductor and band or orchestra is.... or should contain that mutually fed dynamic. The conductor is also providing the closest thing to the complementary visual dimension of dance to the music within a concert hall. Our appreciation of music has apparently got a lot to do with the fulfillment of our ear's expectations moment by moment, so the gestures of the conductor are queuing the audience also.
The business of conducting strikes me as interesting and somewhat open to the interpretations of individual conductors.
Hope I'm not rambling too much off topic, but the matter of conductors keeps cropping up, so I suppose my question is ... Are they all truly dictators ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-20 13:56
Julian, an excellent new topic!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-20 20:33
...be inflexible where flexibility can be allowed, and possibly improve a student's abilities.
This is owed further clarification on my part.
Clearly there are many aspects of clarinet play where there are rules and pretty strong best practices that must be adhered to. We, by way of extreme example, operate the top section of the instrument with the left hand, we play (at least in this century) with the reed closer to the ground than sky. And I probably could list 10,000 more of these pretty none negotiable requirements.
But there are situations in teaching (and learning) where customizing an approach to the way a student best learns, and not ramming a "one size fits all" pedagogy down their throat leads to better results. And IMHO the best teaching comes from people who are perceptive to how and when their students excel, and attempt, without compromising the aforementioned non-negotiables, to work within that framework.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-11-20 23:22
ruben, Good point. I should have thought of that.
Question for Mods-- I hit reply on ruben's post and his post doesn't appear here above my response. How does one get that to happen (ie. unless I put "ruben," how does anyone know who I am replying too?)?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2024-11-20 23:25)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-21 01:04
Tom H wrote:
> ruben, Good point. I should have thought of that.
>
> Question for Mods-- I hit reply on ruben's post and his post
> doesn't appear here above my response. How does one get that to
> happen (ie. unless I put "ruben," how does anyone know who I am
> replying too?)?
>
>
> Post Edited (2024-11-20 23:25)
No moderator here, but I'll otherwise address your question Tom.
You are indeed correct that the only way to Quote a post is when it is the one just above where you want to quote and respond to, making for issues if that post isn't the last post in "Flat View."
Flat View, is what I think, respectfully sir, you have been operating in all along without necessarily knowing it or giving it this name. The board also has the ability have its threads seen in "Threaded View" (notice the option below) where you can then click on the post you wish to quote, have it appear as the last visible post---even if it isn't the most recent post in the thread--and quote it.
Threaded/Flat View is a toggle: an "exclusive or" in computer programming parlance if you will . While on the board you are always exactly in one of these two modes, never neither, never both simultaneously. These two modes are mutually exculsive.
I hope that helps 
Post Edited (2024-11-21 01:13)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-11-21 02:27
Second, Thanks for that info.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-11-21 06:32
Tom H wrote:
> Question for Mods-- I hit reply on ruben's post and his post
> doesn't appear here above my response. How does one get that to
> happen (ie. unless I put "ruben," how does anyone know who I am
> replying too?)?
1. Open a reply window
2. click <Quote>
3. edit the quoted message down to what you're actually replying/reacting to
4. type your own message underneath the quoted text.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-11-21 09:42
kdk wrote:
>
> 1. Open a reply window
> 2. click <Quote>
> 3. edit the quoted message down to what you're actually
> replying/reacting to
> 4. type your own message underneath the quoted text.
>
> Karl
Thanks. Just did it. Now let's see if it works.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-21 14:43
Don't shout: "no!!" all of the time. It frustrates the student. No to "no".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-21 16:42
Don't throw anything at them that might leave a mark!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-11-25 23:08
Don't assign everything. It is important, of corse, to assign pieces, but let the student do a bit of searching for repertoire himself. Let him play, at times, works he has a particular liking for or affinity with and which he himself discovered.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2024-11-25 23:20)
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