 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-23 10:52
Hi all! I'm starting to learn to play (adult) and I want to buy a clarinet. The main reason I want to play is because I love the sound of the clarinet and it turns out, the sound that I like most is that of German clarinets, yet for multitude of reasons I want the Boehm system. So, not many options here, very few make the bore straight and narrow (-ish). So far I was able to determine Yamaha CSG III with Hamilton plating is probably it for me, but it's painfully expensive, even used.
I am willing to compromise and do a two-step, an instrument to learn on for a couple of years, then something I really want. But I still want some of that characteristic German timbre. How much I'm willing to spend? Minimum necessary to get that sound. I know for sure I wouldn't want a Buffet, not even the E13.
Yamaha YCL 650 sounds pretty warm, but I haven't heard it in person. Selmer Prologue perhaps? Older Selmers? No idea. It is very difficult to judge from a youtube recording, being that very seldom is there a musician comparing two instruments I'm interested in head to head, and niche instruments are difficult to find both on youtube and on ebay... Any suggestions?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-23 14:00
The tone that any clarinet produces is mostly down to the player and the tone they produce. Even German and Oehler system clarinets can sound bright and brash with some players and dark and warm with others playing the exact same clarinet, just as an entry level plastic clarinet can sound in the hands of different players, so tone quality isn't a clarinet specific thing.
As you're a beginner and an adult beginner at that, your expectations are already set way too high and that can set you up for disappointment as you're not going to get the results you're looking for straight away if you've never played clarinet before.
You already have the sound in mind which is a good thing to aim for as not many young beginners have much of an idea of what sound to aim for if they've only heard their clarinet teacher (who may not even be a clarinet player) and their peers playing and the odd recording, video or soundtrack of a clarinet being played which may have been their reason to take up clarinet, no matter how good or bad that player is.
As for German and Oehler system clarinets, they're mostly Germany-centric and then a few players outside Germany playing them as well as most teachers, music shops and repairers outside Germany rarely ever seeing them or even knowing anything about them, so it's better to use the system most popular and familiar in any given location which for most part worldwide are Boehm systems as that makes things much easier all round for everyone involved.
Have you got a teacher already lined up or are you going to go it alone? If you haven't got a teacher, then find one (and a clarinettist as opposed to a clarinet player who plays just enough to teach beginners) before committing to anything as they will be able to help with tone production and nip any bad habits in the bud.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-09-23 18:17
I find the Delmer Recital is the best compromise between the German sound and the Boehm clarinet. That's what Guy Danguin of Selmer was after, and I think he achieved it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-23 19:13
I do plan on having a teacher, I know a flute teacher who knows a few clarinet teachers, so she'll connect me with one when I ask her to. I understand the sound coming out of the horn mostly depends on the player, but then very closely follows the choice of the mouthpiece, the reed, and the clarinet. Still, I would like to know it is possible to achieve the velvety sound I'm looking for, you know what I mean? If it's not possible at all, then I don't have a target to aim at. Or do you believe any intermediate instrument can sound warm and dark in the hands of a master?
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-09-23 20:19
Any clarinet can sound warm and dark in the hands of a good player. Practice on the gear you have and resist the urge to buy chops. That never works.
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-23 20:48
Got it, skill first. Currently I don't have a clarinet, just a clariphone (chalumeau), I'm past the squeaks, but I decided to learn the clarinet first. So then I think I would like to choose either Yamaha YCL-650 or Selmer Prologue. Both are reasonably priced, used, except I would have to buy sight unseen, as it is unlikely that one will be for sale anywhere near me.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-23 22:39
Most wise and sound advice from Chris, which I fully agree with.
That said, as a Reform Boehm (German bore/French fingering) player myself, I have lots of sympathy with the OP. 
Concerning your choice of clarinet I would say you can't achieve your ideal tone on any clarinet (actually far from it), but you can certainly always work towards it - by the way you develop your embouchure and voicing, as well as by your choice of mouthpieces (usually a lot more significant than the clarinet itself) and reeds. As Chris already said, it's great that you already know what kind of tone you're after, which will be the best possible guide for your coming development.
Just a few years back the somewhat rare Yamaha Reform Boehm clarinets (the YCL-856 model, no longer in production) I occasionally encountered on sale as used ones were quite low priced - but seemingly not any longer, when I just did a quick search (the few ones I found were around 3.000 €/USD, at least when in top condition). Otherwise those could have been an affordable option for you, besides "regular" French system clarinets.
When buying used, the condition of an instrument is generally more important than what specific make or model it is. Since you have to buy unseen, I would strongly recommend buying only from a company with a woodwind workshop, where the instrument has been seriously checked, repaired and regulated.
May I ask which country or area you are in? Perhaps someone could then recommend some reputable dealers. Perhaps also your future teacher could help you in your search of a decent instrument.
Post Edited (2024-09-24 10:23)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-09-24 00:35
Uebel Boehm clarinets sound closer to Oehler/German than Buffet models. At least, it was my impression from listening to a highly skilled player. His regular clarinet is a Selmer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-24 01:42
When buying used, always factor in the cost of a service at the very least or a full overhaul at the very most as what the seller says isn't necessarily the truth. While it makes no odds to me as I always strip down and rebuild used instruments when I buy them, for anyone else it will mean they'll have to fork out for the work to be done and to use a reputable repairer who does a top notch job.
And the cost of the repair work isn't always indicative of the quality of the work done - some repairers charge a fortune and do bugger all work. I had that very thing recently when a sax player who recently paid just over £750 for a service (or C.O.A. - clean/oil/adjust as Americans usually call it) and I couldn't see any evidence of any work had been done to justify charging that much when I could've done a compete overhaul for around that price. They may have charged more than double as what I charge for a service, but they did less than a quarter of the work and saxes don't accumulate several years worth of filth in them within a couple of months.
And before that I bought an '80s Buffet S1 soprano sax from a dealer who said he'd have his repairer fully service it before sending it to me - I already fully expected it just to be wiped over with an oily rag given the very short time this service was alleged to have taken place and sure enough it arrived with the original key felts and corks as well as all the original pads it had when it left the Buffet factory in around 1984.
Any listings that say 'recently serviced' should always be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
Out of the two choices, I'd consider the Selmer Prologue over the Yamaha as I'm a fan of Selmer clarinets (that's not to say Yamaha clarinets aren't good or well made as they are), but still factor in the cost of a full rebuild at the very most so you're not going to be disappointed if it's in a worse condition than advertised.
Also be aware the terminology used is open to interpretation and misinterpretation - I call a basic check-up and regulate a check-up or check over, then a service is when the whole instrument is taken apart, cleaned, polished, oiled, pads/corks/springs replaced as necessary and then a full overhaul is a complete stripdown and rebuild with all new pads, key corks/felts, tenon corks, tonehole work, keywork fitting, screw fitting and everything finished to a standard far better than it left the factory. Some call that a repad, some call it a servce, some call a service an overhaul, some call a service a check-up/checkover, so there's tons of terms that get mixed up and used by different repairers all the time and in all areas.
And another thing, just because a repairer belongs to an association like NAMIR, doesn't mean their work is any good and a lot of the time it isn't - they may pay the subs to be included in the directlry of repairers, but that guarantees nothing. Has to be said the worst work I've seen was done by NAMIR repairers. If anyone from NAMIR has a problem with me saying that, then you need to get your house in order before threatening me with legal action as I have all the evidence to back up what I've said.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-24 12:14
Micke: I came across the YCL-856 and it was clear that it is not going to be cheap, there is nothing on ebay, but there is one listing on wallapop, near Barcelona, only in person pick up for 1800 (USD, assumingly). If I could go and see it, this would actually be a viable option for me, at this price point, I wouldn't feel comfortable buying it from an individual, unseen.
I am from Slovenia, so Italy is my best bet to buy used from a shop, as Austria and I assume Hungary, probably mostly deal with Oehler clarinets. If buying unseen, from individuals, still most of Boehms I can find are in Spain, France and Italy.
m1964: thank you for your suggestion, Uebel Classic goes for about 600€ used, there is one video on YT, from that it seems it sounds good and is obviously of good quality.
Chris: thank you very much for the warning. I kind of knew/suspected most of what you wrote, but I was overly optimistic that what people are selling is in perfect condition if they say it's good "has just been serviced" or "just came back from a shop" and "ready to play". What you said is probably a very realistic description of what to expect, so yeah, I really need to factor that in, consciously. Now I'm even thinking probably better to look for those that haven't been serviced and are thus cheaper so that then I send it directly to a repair shop myself for a complete overhaul.
Perhaps you'll know this: Selmer made a special coating on the upper part of the tube, so that it prevents it from cracking, but not on the prologue. Am I in danger of buying a cracked one? I assume any (wooden) clarinet could crack, right? Or are some more prone to cracking than others?
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-24 13:40
I just spoke to a servicing shop, he said a complete overhaul is 350€, and of the ones I named his suggestion was Selmer. I asked him about cracking and he said that the "newer" Selmers might crack, and by his rough estimate, there's more than 20% chance it does - at any point in it's lifetime, whereas older ones only have a 3% chance. So instead of Prologue he suggested the older 10S, which are available used near me so I can go and inspect them and try them out. Exciting!
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-09-24 16:15
I think you would benefit from buying second hand and probably fairly old. Something like a Boosey & Hawkes 926 could be the ticket. You are at a stage where getting the right fit with your sound concept is more critical than, say, perfection in tuning, so you can make compromises to ensure that you don't kill off your idea of why you decided to play in the first place.
graham
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-24 16:25
All wooden clarinets of any age are at risk of cracking and if anything, the safest time to buy a wooden clarinet is between the end of March to around mid September to give it a chance to acclimatise before humidity levels drop when it gets cold. The absolute worst time to buy any wooden instrument is January or February.
Prologues have some plastic lined sockets and tenons, so they won't bind up solid like wooden tenons and sockets when the wood swells up. It's been a fair while since I've worked on a Prologue, so can't say for definite which tenons and sockets are plastic lined. Some newer Selmers and the Yamaha 450 Duet have a sleeved top joint bore which helps protect them against cracking.
The 10S has a very focussed, solid, direct, lively and 'fruity' sound - I don't know the exact term to describe the last aspect but to me they sound like what a nice bunch of grapes would sound like if they could make a sound (and not that vile American artificial grape flavour which tastes nothing like grapes). One thing to really watch out on a 10S is the relatively short middle tenon (compared to other makes) as they will rock like anything if they're not a good fit in the lower joint socket if the tenon rings have been excessively filed or sanded down and the end rounded off through careless tenon cork replacement or poor fitting if they were once a tight fit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-24 16:47
karusel wrote:
> I asked him about cracking and he said that the "newer" Selmers
> might crack, and by his rough estimate, there's more than 20%
> chance it does - at any point in it's lifetime, whereas older
> ones only have a 3% chance.
A crack isn't a terminal event in a clarinet. Cracks can be fixed, mitigated or otherwise serviced without damaging the clarinet's playing quality. A *good* repair tech can eliminate any effects of a crack. So I, personally, wouldn't worry about how likely brand A is to crack.
Karl
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-24 19:34
Attachment: Yamaha 856 vs Wurlitzer 187.mp3 (1972k)
karusel, since I understood that an YCL-856 could be a viable option for you, and since sound comparisons are of interest to you, I just made one.
I have a set of YCL-856 myself (Bb and A, the latter labelled 846), though no longer in use and replaced already more than 20 years ago by a Wurlitzer RB 187 set (with added low e-f correction, a thumb key rising the pitch of low e and f).
I know a Wurlitzer is out of your budget, but perhaps you are interested in how the Yamaha RB compares to it - in a tone by tone comparison (well, three tones at a time, see below)?
Actually I got a big surprise myself when making this comparison today. I tried the Yamaha Bb first with my current mouthpiece on the Wurlitzers, a Maxton Clara. Sound was good, but tuning wasn't acceptable. Then I tried both of the original mouthpieces of the Yamahas, a Zinner M3R and a "2 24" (a somewhat mysterious marking), with bad tone and no better tuning than with the Clara. Then a Vandoren B40D, and finally a Playnick Brahms - which besides a really good tone also had the best tuning of all these (it's the opposite on the Wurlitzers, I used the Brahms for a while on them but the Clara has both better tone and tuning). I've barely touched my Yamahas since I got my Wurlitzers, so I've never before tried the Brahms on them.
When listening to this comparison myself, I'm struck by how similar both clarinets are sounding - and I have even to admit that when there is a difference, I generally prefer the Yamaha (in several of the "rounds" it's clearer, with less hoarseness - despite that the reed strength didn't felt stiffer)!
So, if the kind of sound you hear on this recording is what you consider as "German" (which in itself isn't sure, since our perceptions vary greatly and even what's a German sound to me isn't necessarily that for you), then maybe a Yamaha 856 could at least be a lot, lot more affordable option than a Wurlitzer? Still, keep an open mind about your presumptive Selmer 10S - if you can hear it played before buying it, maybe it after all sounds better to you than this recorded Yamaha?
Then, when it comes to tuning, you should be aware that a good French bore clarinet probably tunes significantly better than a Reform Boehm. The main problem on the latter is a very flat low f and e - where the Yamaha is lacking the optional thumb key that Wurlitzers can be provided with (or is included in their top-of-the-line model, the 185). Another problem area is around E4 (E' in Europe, the first line E), where all clarinets are flat - but the RB's are even more so (actually the Yamaha is less flat there, than my Wurlitzers - but still very flat). I deal with that with special fingerings, which complicates things, but is a price I'm willing to pay - to be happy with the tone, which I can't get on other type of clarinets (I guess I'm in agreement here with graham above). As said, the Brahms mouthpiece was the best tuning one on the Yamahas, but probably a well suited mouthpiece to a Selmer 10S would make it tune even better.
On the attached file there are two separate recordings of the chromatic scale combined (from low E to D# above the staff), divided into a number of "rounds" where three successive notes are played always first on my Yamaha, then immediately followed by the same notes on my Wurlitzer. Thus, from the beginning, low E-F-F# on the Yamaha, then the same notes on the Wurlitzer, next low G-G#-A on the Yamaha, the same ones on the Wurlitzer, etc.
My setups were: 1) Yamaha 856 clarinet with a Playnick "Brahms" mouthpiece, a Pilgerstorfer Dolce 4.0 reed (a soft one, the 3.5's are generally more suitable to this mouthpiece) and a BG "Super Revelation" German ligature. 2) Wurlitzer 187 clarinet, a Maxton Clara mouthpiece with German bore, a Pilgerstorfer Vienna 3.5 reed, and a Vandoren "Klassik" ligature (the stringlike one).
As with any recordings, good quality speakers or headphones (from about 100 € up) are required. Also be aware the lack of any kind of reverb, since I believe in comparing just the sounds as they are, without added colour from a room or hall.
Post Edited (2024-09-24 22:33)
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-24 22:51
kdk: good to know, I'll keep that in mind
Micke: Wow, I like that comparison, so awesome of you for making and posting it here. I have a pair of Audio Technica M50X's which ought to be good enough, and at least in the lower registers I almost can't detect any notable difference even in such a direct comparison. In the higher tones, I have to say I prefer the Yamaha, but not by a lot.
I feel my Overton window of acceptable price is on an upwards trajectory... at the price point of the Yamaha 856 is also the (also used) CSG-III. I wanted to keep the budget relatively low, because I didn't want to be that kid who doesn't even know how to drive yet is picking his car from the likes of Audi S8, BMW M5 and Mercedes AMG GT 63. While not exactly the same, you know what I mean, I would actually not feel that great starting out on a Wurlitzer, I couldn't possibly hope to get many of the nuances out that it is capable of producing within... perhaps a decade of playing. Someone said that Buffet Crampon sounds good (not amazing) if you're playing it as intermediate or if you're playing it as advanced, Selmer is different and allows and advanced player to sound amazing, but an intermediate playing it can sound worse than when playing the Buffet.
I'm about to pick an instructor and I'll debate with him what we talked about here, then I'll finally decide...
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-09-25 11:26
lydian, yes I believe so. But then I could be walking into a trap and you just served me a student clarinet with a good mouthpiece... :D
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-09-25 20:26
Maybe a little trickery, but no trap. Just making the point that the clarinet doesn't really matter much so long as it's functional. You just listened to a metal clarinet. So plastic, wood, metal, pro, student, whatever, can be played dark and warm on a conservative mouthpiece. Anything you pick is going to sound great with enough practice. It will be years before you'll develop a good tone anyway.
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