 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-09 01:02
So, back in February I pre-ordered an instrument from what seems by all appearances to be a reputable music retailer held in high regard. It was expensive and I had to pay it all up front. I received a receipt and felt fine.
I received a mass email in April telling me (and others) the basic timing of receiving the instrument - which was late Summer - and was told in the email that we could respond to that email with questions. I had some questions and responded. No response from the retailer.
I sent a follow-up email in July. No response. I sent another email a few days ago. No response. Concerned, I checked my account on the website and can't find any trace of the order (but I still have the emailed receipt).
I have trouble understanding how I have received no response AT ALL after paying them thousands of dollars upfront. But maybe I'm old school and expect customer service that just doesn't exist anymore....
Am I being impatient? Or have I fallen for a scam? Or something else?What are your thoughts?? I appreciate any perspective you can offer.
Post Edited (2024-10-18 00:53)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-09 01:15
bradfordlloyd wrote:
> Am I being impatient? Or have I fallen for a scam? What are
> your thoughts??
I don't think you're being impatient. Whether or not it's a scam is hard to tell from the BBoard's perspective. You really need to pursue this with some service that you can provide with more specific information.
Has the payment been processed (by your bank or the credit card company or whatever you paid with)?
Karl
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-09 01:51
Thanks for your response. I'm just trying to get some perspective (my wife thinks I should get a lawyer involved!)
It was a credit card payment. So, it was processed immediately. I will soon check to see if I can still dispute the charges via the credit card. But I wanted to get some additional perspective before I escalate.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2024-09-09 10:41
Perhaps an obvious question, but have you tried speaking to them about it - using the number from the dealer’s website rather than from correspondence?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-09 11:34
I also think you need to call them and demand an explanation. Presumably they did confess initially to not having your instrument in stock. Now you have "Waiting for Godot" situation. You don't know when you will receive your order.....and likely they don't know when they will receive it either, but they are reluctant to tell you as much, because they don't want you to cancel your order and demand your money back. Not very responsible conduct on their part, but there seems to have been quite a few cases of this type of purchasing dilemma.
Not fraud ...but definitely irresponsible sales conduct.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-09 11:49
If every attempt getting a response from this dealer fails, maybe you could provide their name - so others here could tell their possible experiences (good or bad), or be warned?
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-09 16:20
Thanks for the responses! Much appreciated.
This was a "pre-order" situation, so I knew that I would be waiting for some period of time before I received the instrument. I'm not concerned about the wait, but merely that there hasn't been any communication since April despite now three attempts. And clearly the timeline has changed since it was supposed to be delivered "late summer" and we are basically there now.
Literally, a simple email response from them saying "There have been delays. Now it's coming in December. Sorry for the change, and thanks for your patience" and I wouldn't be at all concerned. But that hasn't happened.
I'm not calling the retailer out specifically at this point, because I'm still hoping that this is just poor communication and customer service. Again, this is a source held in generally high regard, so I'm reluctant to start an internet "flame war" (plus, I'd still like to get the instrument that I paid for). I'm choosing kindness...but checking in with you all to make sure that I'm not being an idiot pushover.
I have located the phone number to call and will be reaching out this week.
Post Edited (2024-09-09 16:32)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2024-09-09 16:54
Without knowing the name of the shop and the model of the instrument it’s impossible to say. If it’s a Backun Alpha bass clarinet then you’re in the same boat as everyone else that preordered, I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes a few more months.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-09 17:17
Funny enough....it's not the Backun Alpha bass. But I actually have more information about that instrument's availability and delivery than the one I ordered and have already paid for!
Heck, if I had ANY information, I might cancel my current order and opt for the Backun Alpha Bass!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-09-09 18:30
Have we moved so far away from using telephones for what they were originally intended for?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-09-09 19:40
A few options...
Is the place you ordered from also the manufacturer? If not, try the manufacturer too and explain the situation. Maybe they can get the store to reply.
Try every method of contact possible. Phone, Whatsapp, etc. Although a place offering an email contact should absolutely reply, email has become the easiest to not answer to for some reason...
At worst case you can try the credit card company. It's not black and white, and they decide whether a situation is enough to cancel a payment, etc. They might tell you try contacting them again, or they might try to contact the store themselves. Of course this means canceling your order.
This isn't really different from any other product. The only thing a clarinet community might know is if someone is in a similar situation with the same store, or maybe someone knows someone from that store.
Not necessarily the case, but years ago I bought something from someone who is very reputable on forums... and it was someone of the worst... you never know
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-10 01:30
Philip Caron wrote:
> Have we moved so far away from using telephones for what they
> were originally intended for?
Well, when we made a telephone call back in Alex Bell's day, we expected that someone would answer at the other end.
But today all we get are menus and canned greetings (with music of questionable taste and irritatingly poor sound quality) telling us how important our call is and asking us to wait indefinitely on the line until a service agent gets to our call on the queue.
I avoid phone calls whenever possible.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-09-10 02:44
kdk wrote:
> But today all we get are menus and canned greetings (with music
> of questionable taste and irritatingly poor sound quality)
In Mexico the phone company of choice is WhatsApp :D
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-10 04:11
I've never used it. Does it help with phone queues and bad holding music?
Karl
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-10 11:57
I find they always pick up the phone and interrupt the music just when I'm really getting into the groove . Does anybody know where I can buy ' Holding Music's Greatest Hits'?😁
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2024-09-10 13:24
Julian ibiza wrote:
> I find they always pick up the phone and interrupt the music
> just when I'm really getting into the groove . Does anybody
> know where I can buy ' Holding Music's Greatest Hits'?😁
>
Just get recordings of Eine kleine Nachtmusik and Vivaldi's four seasons, and distort the audio quality.
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Author: MarkW61
Date: 2024-09-10 14:27
The lack of any contact is not reassuring, I would contact your credit card company asap, don't be tempted to live in hope, they will know whether the seller is reputable and will make enquiries for you. I had a similar situation a few years ago, fortunately Barclaycard intervened and I got the money back.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-09-11 01:05
I would definitely pursue it from all angles, but especially with the credit card company. I would be concerned that the order was processed some time ago and that if too much time passes you may have trouble contesting the charge.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-11 17:12
UPDATE: Credit card company can step in, but because the transaction was processed back in February, it's kind of a big deal. So, they are encouraging me to reach out to the retailer and attempt to resolve the issue before they escalate.
I have reached out to the seller (again!) and still haven't gotten a response.
I also did some additional digging and discovered that now on the seller's website if I look at the details/description of the instrument, there is some updated timing for delivery (not that someone who has already ordered an instrument would generally be looking back at that info). Additionally, apparently they put in a new system for accounts after I placed my order which may explain why I can't find my order in their system.
Of course, a simple email at any point since April would have prevented any of these concerns.
Happily, this is looking less like a "scam" situation, but just a seller that has poor customer service and communication. I will wait for the instrument based on the new timing I discovered and take action if that doesn't come to pass. I've waited this long, so what's another 60 days?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2024-09-14 09:40
A friend had a similar experience last year with a british company. She ordered and paid for a clarinet early n the year and then had no communication until
August. Eventually the instrument arrived and she is delighted with it, but it was a very poor example of responsibility to the customer.
Tony F.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-09-14 17:16
bradfordlloyd wrote:
"... Credit card company can step in, but because the transaction was processed back in February, it's kind of a big deal. So, they are encouraging me to reach out to the retailer and attempt to resolve the issue before they escalate.
I have reached out to the seller (again!) and still haven't gotten a response.
...
Happily, this is looking less like a "scam" situation, but just a seller that has poor customer service and communication. I will wait for the instrument based on the new timing I discovered and take action if that doesn't come to pass. I've waited this long, so what's another 60 days?"
Honestly, I does not look less like a scam to me. No response from the store, another "only 60 more days" after six months waiting?
The credit card company will be less likely to step in after another 60 days, I think...
In any case, it would be nice to know where you ordered from to warn other potential buyers about delays and poor response from this company.
Of course, this is how I see the situation, maybe someone else will post their opinion.
Sometimes, it helps to look at the matter from the "outside", without an emotional attachment...
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-09-14 22:08
Why can’t you tell us who they are and if you’ve phoned them? Then maybe we can help!
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-09-15 02:24
I think that at this point it is appropriate to tell us the name of the shop and the instrument ordered. They aren't really in a position to "cry foul" for bad press...
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-15 20:30
Thank you all for your helpful responses and concern. While I certainly knew that I would be waiting for the instrument, I'm surprised that there has been no communication from the seller since April. I appreciate you all verifying that this lack of communication is strange and bad business practice.
I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with the credit card company. I learned that in most cases, credit card companies will not allow you to file a dispute for a purchase beyond 90-120 days of purchase. However, for pre-orders, as long as you have a receipt, you can file a dispute more than a year after the charge (at least with the card with which I paid for the instrument). Apparently, these ever-extending waits are not uncommon for pre-orders (and, again, I knew it could be the case here as well).
Armed with the information from the credit card company, and after confirming with them that waiting 60 days (or more) actually wouldn't change my ability to dispute the charge with the seller if needed, I will wait for the instrument based on the new timing I uncovered on the seller's site and take action if that doesn't come to pass.
I'm still not calling out the seller at this point, because I continue to believe that I'll likely get the instrument....and I'd like to believe that they are doing the best that they can. For now, I'm choosing kindness...and very much trying my best to suppress my instinct to be suspicious and frustrated.
(BTW, in general, for all pre-orders, I would advise asking the seller upfront when and how shipping updates will be communicated. I'd also advise selecting your credit card based on advantageous purchase protections and extended timing for opening disputes just in case things don't progress as you'd hope!)
Post Edited (2024-09-15 20:45)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-09-15 22:11
From many players perspectives this seems a very strange way to proceed. If an instrument is of high quality then you need to test it before committing to purchase.
Instruments seem to be supplied to shops in more limited numbers these days but, even so, a choice of a few and a period 'on approval' is what I would expect in the UK. I would never buy an instrument by mail order and basically have no choice.
If the instrument was going to be significantly delayed the dealer should have told you so and given you the option to go elsewhere.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-09-15 22:13
To add to this, my present Bb and A instruments were chosen from 12 Bbs and 12 As. A technician was present to make changes and then my final choices came with me for 10 days before I paid.
I bought my Selmer bass in Paris with a choice of 10 instruments.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-09-16 08:05
symphony1010 wrote:
> To add to this, my present Bb and A instruments were chosen
> from 12 Bbs and 12 As. A technician was present to make changes
> and then my final choices came with me for 10 days before I
> paid.
>
> I bought my Selmer bass in Paris with a choice of 10
> instruments.
Did you go to the showroom? It's unlikely a dealer will have 10 basses in stock these days.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-09-16 08:56
>> Did you go to the showroom? It's unlikely a
>> dealer will have 10 basses in stock these days.
Probably, with so much being online now... but I bought my bass in a store in the USA (not a showroom of a manufacturer or anything) and tried close to ten Buffets and a few Selmers. That store has since closed...
Post Edited (2024-09-16 20:17)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-09-16 10:54
Admittedly, the scope to try and compare lots of samples has decreased. Buffet are supplying far fewer instruments to dealers and the waiting time to get an appointment in Paris is quite lengthy now.
Nevertheless, buying something as personal and important online is unacceptable to any serious player.
What I do now with students is to test the same model at a selection of dealers and sometimes checking out secondhand instruments as well.
One technique many buyers now embrace here is to buy a used example from the period when it was the top model. R13 Prestige from the 80s or 90s when it was the best Buffet made.
Going back to the OP we don’t know what this instrument is - we still don’t know the details of the dealer and we have no confirmation of any phone calls. With the dealers I know it would be just a few minutes to check when stock was arriving. I simply wouldn’t deal with any company that couldn’t be bothered to pick up the phone. There always were some companies that were just interested in selling boxes but musicians with any kind of experience don’t use such companies. In the UK there are perhaps 4 or 5 top companies with proper workshops and expertise and any serious player knows who and where they are.
Post Edited (2024-09-16 11:41)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-09-19 23:21
FINALLY! A response, an apology, and definite timing! It seems that there was a major delay at the manufacturer.
"Your horn should be shipping to you in about 2-3 weeks at the most."
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-20 10:22
That's great news!
Well!.. whoever these people are, I'm sure that they can always find employment keeping public facilities stocked with toilet paper if all else fails.🤪
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2024-09-20 19:25
While I admire your patience and good will, I find the treatment you received from the supplier appalling.
It would be a service to your fellow musiciens to inform the bboard of who the supplier (fraught with poor communications and zero reactivity to repeated legitimate customer inquiries) and manufacturer (big unforseen delay in delivery) are. Not everyone wants to or can afford to go through this type of hassle and stress. Not being able to honor a delivery date by the beginning of a performance season on a 7, 8 month fully paid pre-order would be a deal killer for me, no matter who the instrument is coming from.
So I hope you can see your way clear to spare others a similar experience by revealing the commercial and manufacturing sources involved, after you take delivery. It is understandable that you do not want to upset the apple cart before this is finalized, but perhaps even more reason to do so in the end.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-09-22 12:07
We never knew the instrument, the shop or the answers to most of the relevant questions.
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Author: Connor1700
Date: 2024-09-24 22:05
Since this seems to be sting full of opinions, I'll add mine.
The OP summation: "Am I being impatient? Or have I fallen for a scam? Or something else?What are your thoughts?? I appreciate any perspective you can offer."
I believe the OP knew the answers all along. I believe he/she knew exactly what options/recourse were available all along.
Anyone remotely involved in bass clarinets knows exactly who the OP is referring to and the OP is using this platform as a public chiding hoping it would illicit a response from the seller.
If someone weren't trying to create drama, they would simply as a question without all the secrecy. "Hey has anyone had any problems buying a clarinet from the Walmart in Anywhere, USA?"
FWIW, that's my opinion.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-10-18 00:56
So, I have received the instrument, and it’s time for some additional information….
The instrument in question is a Backun Q Bass Clarinet that I pre-ordered from Earspasm music. Everything I noted in this string about lack of communication and response is absolutely true. And it was frustrating and even concerning, which is why I wrote the original post.
HOWEVER…once the communication started just before shipping (because they finally knew when they would be getting it from the manufacturer and could tell me with a degree of confidence), everything was absolutely flawless. The instrument shipped when I was told, was delivered quickly and beautifully in a custom box with cool stickers and instructions and kind notes from Michael Lowenstern. More importantly, the instrument itself is REMARKABLE. Gorgeous wood and keywork, built like a tank (I mean in a good way…it is solid and won’t fall out of adjustment easily), and in a very cool Marcus Bonna case. It plays like a dream with startlingly good intonation, great tone across the horn, and it’s easily the best instrument I’ve ever played. Ever. Definitely worth the wait.
So, I was pretty frustrated at Earspasm. However, Michael Lowenstern does so many things so remarkably well – his videos are great and informative, his instrument reviews and general advise are spot on, his playing is terrific, and he helped create a really wonderful new bass clarinet in the Backun Q -- so, I guess he can be given a break if his shop’s customer service and communication wasn’t flawless. Especially in the context of a new product rolling off the manufacturing line (which I guess is always full of additional delays and challenges).
A few other things to address comments in the string…(1) I wasn’t looking for any attention or drama, but I was looking for perspective from others, which the BBoard provided, and I thank you all for that, (2) I didn’t mention shop or instrument name because I was looking to AVOID drama and didn’t want to overreact, shame, or impugn the character of Backun or Earspasm, and (3) I took a leap of faith when I ordered the instrument based on some early reviews from Lowenstern and others, and decided that I didn’t need to “try before I buy” because Backun and Lowenstern have pretty great reputations. (Of course, not hearing anything for several months definitely caused me to question my faith – fortunately, unnecessarily!)
Thanks again for your support and comments. I’m so pleased that this all ended happily.
Post Edited (2024-10-18 18:38)
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Author: karusel
Date: 2024-10-18 12:52
I'm really happy for you that it worked out. I still don't understand the communication thing; you've sent them multiple e-mails over several months and then never got a reply and in the end they just sent you the notice once they knew when they will be able to ship the instrument? Does that mean that they got your e-mails, read them and ignored them, because they did not want to say that the date of shipping is unknown? For fear of you demanding the money back? If it is so, that this practice is abhorrent. It would take five minutes to explain the situation; please don't worry, you will get your clarinet, we are unsure of the timeline, it could be anywhere from 5-8 months, we are doing our best to ship it as soon as we can. Please understand that this is a pre-order situation, where timelines may shift. In case you wish us to refund you, let us know at any time.
Is that too difficult? I just can't wrap my mind around them not replying... If I were you, I'd have been panicking quite a bit more, there's one thing if they'd say delivery time unknown, and something completely different if not saying anything at all...
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-10-18 18:35
Honestly, I don't really understand it either. I agree that a simple response would have avoided unnecessary concern. I think Earspasm is a pretty small enterprise (maybe just Michael and his wife?), so perhaps they were overwhelmed with orders for the new Backun instruments and fell behind on communication. That's at least how I have come to terms with it.
Interestingly, all of the communications that I HAVE received (i.e., the one email blast update, and everything that came with the instrument, the shipping, the box, etc.) have been lovely and beautifully branded. I guess that reflects Michael's advertising background. But the shipping and progress communications and ongoing customer service are a bit different and can be overwhelming (I speak from experience here in other realms).
Again, this has a happy ending -- I received an incredible instrument that is everything that was promised. Earspasm and Backun really came through, although they probably missed a few style points along the way.
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Author: puffball
Date: 2024-10-18 20:00
Delurking to say that I also pre-ordered a Q bass from Earspasm (in late December 2023), but my experience was quite positive overall. I did email a few times while waiting for the instrument to check on status/delivery estimates, and Michael always responded almost immediately. I am nobody at all fancy or important, so that could not have been a motivating factor. I'm not sure why bradfordlloyd's experience was so different, but it is not representative of mine.
(I received my instrument in early September, and it is indeed wonderful.)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-10-19 14:44
I'm so glad that your experience was different (and better)!
I'm increasingly sure that my experience was just an anomaly. Perhaps I somehow inadvertently frustrated Earspasm??
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-10-20 19:58
Perhaps Mike Lowenstern has been very busy with the release of of the Backun bass(which he co-designed) atop of maintaining his shop as well as his freelance music career, so much that he either missed, forgot or don't have enough time to reply to every email he gets(probably countless of them), and consequently had to leave a few unanswered for quite some time. I've had similar experiences with a few other music businesses(who are otherwise very competent), including a very recent episode. Don't sweat it unless Mike explicitly tells you so!
Josh
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2024-10-21 01:42
Exactly my thought! As I noted above, Mr. Lowenstern has his hands full, and does so many things very, very well. Since this ended happily, we should certainly cut him a break if the communication wasn't flawless.
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