 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-05 12:28
I had a Ridenour 576bc in high school and I always had problems tuning the clarion notes and above. Then I got an R13 in college and it tunes much better and easier. Almost 0 effort. Is the quality really that vast between a $1.6k clarinet and a $4k clarinet?
Post Edited (2024-07-05 12:30)
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-07-05 13:33
You know, it IS possible that you improved, did you consider that?
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-05 14:15
No, I stopped playing in 12th grade after I didn't make state. The R13 is a huge improvement from the 576bc.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-05 18:44
I think that most young clarinet students are playing something that's supposed to be a precision instrument by default of the fact that it's a clarinet. Often regulation issues are mistaken for shortcomings in either the fundamental instrument or the player themselves. It all tends to be a bit like the school cycle day.... John has a flat tyre...Jane has no breaks and Jill's gears don't work.....Ready!... Steady!....GO!
Many a clarinetist has underrated an instrument that was really only short of a regulation tweak .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-07-05 19:37
clarinetering: as I suspect you may know, the clarinet's design for intonation, even one of the finest quality and setup, represents a compromise that seeks to get as many notes as close to as being in tune as possible, sometimes sacrificing pitch in some notes (e.g. low F, throat tones) in the hope that this sacrifice is less than a price that would be paid in bad intonation in other notes were pitch on such notes designed to be closer to perfect.
In the case of two finger Bb, nearly all instruments place the register key's tone hole in a place that seeks to optimize its role in both playing this note, and bringing the instrument's pitch up by a 12th in key.
(A few instruments incorporate low F correction and other designs for throat Bb.)
So there's that, to which lessor quality instruments and/or poor setup can only add to the problem.
But that said, as a general rule, Tom Ridenour has incorporated a lot of his LeBlanc designs in creating instruments under his own label that stay as close as possible to being in pitch: I think it's one thing (among several) that he is particularly good at. People may differ on whether they like the playing feel of his instruments, which in my opinion and limited experience, and from what I've read are less free blowing than my two R13s (I own an "A" clarinet of his), which incidentally need not be seen as a bad thing, but Tom likes to point out, to paraphrase, that this design resists pitch change with a player's air column pressure changes. On top of this, the dimensionally stable rubber he uses to make his products may also help in his instruments playing consistently over time and changes to temperature and humidity.
I love my R13s but have played ones that are widely out of tune, and read stories about the need to always play test one prior to purchase given their differences. I'm glad you got a winner. And these variances may not be just a product of their wood construction alone, as Yamaha, many players think, produces extremely consistent and excellent wood clarinets.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-07-05 20:19
clarinetering wrote:
"I had a Ridenour 576bc in high school and I always had problems tuning the clarion notes and above. Then I got an R13 in college and it tunes much better and easier. Almost 0 effort. Is the quality really that vast between a $1.6k clarinet and a $4k clarinet?"
For x3 the price I would think so.
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-05 20:40
But teachers and kids keep saying that it's the player and not the instrument...
Yeah, blame the student instead of your mediocre teaching. I swear they say that just to make more money.
Post Edited (2024-07-06 13:37)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-07-05 22:16
I don't think you can make this comparison based on one of each clarinet. Ridenour knows enough about clarinet design and intonation that I would expect his instruments work properly - i.e. play with good response and intonation. There are other variables, including the mouthpiece, the reeds you choose to use on the mouthpiece, non-design flaws that are unique to the individual instrument you're using for comparison, pad height adjustments, dust accumulations built up in critical places over a high school career... Was the Ridenour clarinet carefully maintained over the years when you used it?
Karl
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-06 10:52
I always had problems tuning with his 576bc in high school then I buy an R13 in college and it tunes so easily and I didn't even practice since high school. I've seen bad reviews on his instruments lately. I tried everything with the mouthpiece, reeds, etc. but his 576bc didn't work well for me so I will have to blame his clarinet.
Yes, I took it to a repair man in my final high school year of playing and it still didn't really improve. I really embarrassed myself at the All-Area auditions as a result. I always had problems tuning ever since I got it in 9th grade. It's amazing what high-earning parents can do for your clarinet playing. Instead of a $1.6k clarinet, I could have gotten a $4k clarinet that would have made my life so much easier and better.
Post Edited (2024-07-06 11:27)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-06 11:02
" Ok kids.... let's start your clarinet lessons by declining the verb " To Assume " using the sentence " Your clarinet is in regulation ""
I assume....
You assume....
He/ she/ it assumes....
Your parents assume....
We all assume....
" Great!.... I see nobody has any trouble with lesson 1."
I'm NOT assuming that the performance differences between the OP's two instruments is necessarily the result of being yet another victim of lesson 1,( so please no offense clarinetering),but a lot of youngsters are, and I have seen this lack of understanding linger on into more mature musicians. There's no need to be a technician, but things like checking for leaks with a feeler gauge and noticing that you have a pivot screw backing out or lubricating the keywork are definitely all part of the territory of playing an instrument based on precision engineering. But musical education generally doesn't see fit to include that fundamental element as significantly underpinning the musical objective. It just strikes me as being a bit like training to be a chef without learning how to sharpen a knife. You can do it, but in reality it just doesn't work very well that way.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-07-06 18:47
clarinetering wrote:
I always had problems tuning with his 576bc in high school then I buy an R13 in college and it tunes so easily and I didn't even practice since high school. I've seen bad reviews on his instruments lately. I tried everything with the mouthpiece, reeds, etc. but his 576bc didn't work well for me so I will have to blame his clarinet.
"...Instead of a $1.6k clarinet, I could have gotten a $4k clarinet that would have made my life so much easier and better."
A nice used overhauled R13 can be bought for under $2K.
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-06 19:14
I'm aware, but how was I supposed to know if I was going to get scammed or not? I knew this kid who made first chair All-State TMEA and he got his 80s R13 for under 2k from his teacher who was a symphony player. If I had a teacher like that, I would have trusted him.
Post Edited (2024-07-06 19:17)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-07-07 02:42
clarinetering wrote:
> I'm aware, but how was I supposed to know if I was going to get
> scammed or not? I knew this kid who made first chair All-State
> TMEA and he got his 80s R13 for under 2k from his teacher who
> was a symphony player. If I had a teacher like that, I would
> have trusted him.
I understand your frustration.
Buffet did have quality control problems in 80s, they got it mostly right in the 90s.
I have acquired a few R13s that were bought for the original owners by their parents at a local store, without any trial/comparison and they were all very nice instruments, with slight differences that would not be important once you broke one in.
When you hear that one clarinet sounds great and another one does not, very often that is opinion of a high-level pro player, who can hear those (very) minute differences.
For many others, like me (amateur), ANY clarinet would work as long as it is regulated properly and does not leak. Yes, it is more pleasant to play a Buffet Prestige vs. E11 but E11 is still a very good student-level instrument.
Never had a Ridenour so cannot say anything about them.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2024-07-07 03:44
The R-13 is a professional instrument.
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-07 07:08
TMEA caters to kids who are spoiled by their parents. There was this kid who made third chair All-State TMEA in 2018 with these expensive Backun clarinets (must have been so easy) and he quit music school after 3 years. LOL
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-07 08:45
@smokindok
Says the one who dug up all of those past threads. I was just asking a simple question. Get a life.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2024-07-07 11:03
Have you had other people try your Ridenour 576bc? I'm wondering if they also have the tuning issues you experienced?
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-07 11:51
Hi clarinetering,
I feel sorry that you got a bit cuffed about after sharing what was no doubt largely your satisfaction with your R13. Tom Ridenour has quite a reputation for designing instruments that play well in tune however, so that shouldn't stand out as a particular quality difference between the two instruments... influences of setup and good adjustment aside. Hence I think you received some somewhat speculative, tangent responses here.
Please don't take it badly, sometimes we don't collectively get it right.
The main thing is that your R13 is working well for you, so CONGRATULATIONS!....and enjoy!
Best wishes. J
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-07 14:25
@zhangray4
No, I didn't but I kinda wish I did.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2024-07-07 20:21
clarinetering wrote:
> @smokindok
> Says the one who dug up all of those past threads. I was just
> asking a simple question. Get a life.
Okay, clarinetering, I will give you my answer to your simple question.
Though it is not my main clarinet, I own a Ridenour 576bc and until a few years ago also owned an R13. I am not an instrument "collector", I only keep instruments around that I need. (Especially now at retirement age, taking fewer gigs and playing less.) I play enough clarinet that having a backup instrument available makes sense, but I saw no purpose in having 3 Bb clarinets around. I sold the R13 and kept the Ridenour. The Ridenour has a good sound and solid tuning throughout the range, tuning that though different is certainly equal to the R13. The 576bc, being designed for a lower budget, does not have the beautifully fit and finished keywork of my main instrument, an Eaton, but (credit to Julian here) assuming it is properly adjusted, it is perfectly functional. I would not have any concern if I needed to use it on a gig.
It is important to remember that there is not a linear relationship between quality and cost. Cost will rise exponentially with relatively small increases in quality. I am no pro, most of my playing was theater pits, at a pretty modest level, which meant typically stipends in the $40-60 per service range. Playing maybe 100-120 services a year meant about $6,000 earned. After the expenses of maintaining a dozen instruments in playing condition, depreciation on those instruments, buying reeds, mileage... not much is left for instrument purchases. Buying top level new instruments was not going to happen. I was blessed to play with some excellent reed players. Most had a top-level instrument for their main instrument, but the doubles were filled in with solid, well maintained intermediate, "semi-pro", or older used pro instruments. And these gals and guys could play!
That said, I am still truly concerned that some 5 years later, clarinetering, you are still obsessing over your high school experience. High school years are often fraught with traumatic experiences, it can be a brutal time in one's life. But as an adult, you have the ability to put aside bitterness, learn from the experience, and become the best you can be. I am truly pleased you have acquired an R13 that works well for you. The past is in the past, now it is time to enjoy playing. Play for your own enjoyment, find a group you have fun playing with, seek out like-minded people and play duets, trios, quartets... whatever. Wishing you the best.
John - Who has been blessed with a wonderful life, no need to get a new one ;-)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-07-08 07:16
Wow - makes me feel badly that my parents were too poor to buy me a bass clarinet at all, and that I didn't have the money to do it myself. (I was too busy working two jobs to afford college.)
Glad the school had an old beat-up ancient plastic Bundy to see me through All-State every year.
<sigh>
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
P.S. Cheers to Smokindok. "It is important to remember that there is not a linear relationship between quality and cost." Why is that lesson so hard to understand in today's society - especially pertaining to music/instruments?!
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Author: clarinetering
Date: 2024-07-08 09:54
@Fuzzy
What lesson? It's clearly not true when there are so many kids making All-State on $4k R13s. I'd say that my R13 is way better than my 576bc. It almost has the tone quality I always wanted. I assume you're born in the 50s or 60s? Things are a lot different today.
Post Edited (2024-07-08 10:00)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-08 12:50
I think that when parents proudly buy a new instrument for their children to study music, the notion that that new instrument may need to go for adjustment is something that most of them would never imagine, and I just wish that more teachers would address that problem in support of their students. For example, a new student violin or cello is always going to need a bridge adjustment AFTER the neck has settled into resisting the tuned string tension, which takes a week or so. During that time the neck lifts, the fingerboard drops away from the strings, leaving the poor kid fighting with horribly high action. This sort of thing really pains me, because I imagine that it can mean the difference between the child continue with music, or quitting ... perhaps never to return to it again.
That adult musicians demonstrate basic ignorance regarding their instruments just bemuses me. For example , there's a young woman in the town band who plays a 4/4 cello although her hands are VERY small.
" Is that a 4/4 or a 7/8 ?" I asked her.
She didn't know that 7/8 cello's even existed. She just thought that being an adult you automatically go to a 4/4. But if you barely have an adult finger span of 13cm, you would think that your cello teacher might enlighten you before you lash out on the best adult instrument you can afford.
So Fuzzy....I guess my feelings regarding your question, are that there seems to be quite a lot of ignorance washing about, which doesn't help with the order of values for some musicians in their relationship with their instruments.
I don't know quite how this happens... Should all school music rooms be set up next to the Mechanical Engineering workshop or physics lab?.... perhaps with the human biology class on the other side?
I don't know.... but from what I've seen, there seems to be an aspect of ignorance unaddressed and hence perpetuated in a lot of Musical Education institutions.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-07-08 17:34
And clarinetering,
I think your reply to Fuzzy actually highlights his point.
And "back in the day" for a lot of us on the forum, we all used to get together with bones stuck through our noses, trying to invent the wheel. Likewise, always telling people what they want to hear hadn't yet been invented.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-07-08 20:36
A question (actually a reasonably good question) turned into a TMEA whine. These competitions turn into pretty much meaningless arguments about "rich vs. poor".
Thread closed.
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