 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-07-04 10:27
A review by John Kurokawa which was uploaded 24 hours ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN6CZYA46sc
About the review:
My personal visual observation of his embouchure muscles while playing the BD2 was that John was working quite hard long before he opened up about how resistant the mouthpiece was.
John goes back and forth between playing the BD2 and his Ramon Wodkowski mouthpiece. He also does a brief discussion of other mouthpiece baffles including the popular Zinner.
I found his review to be informative and I hope you enjoy viewing it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-07-04 15:51
Thanks Dan!
The video is really more a good synopsis of what to look for in a mouthpiece with regard to playing in an orchestra (what the conductor wants too!). It was pretty obvious that his sound was more "comfortable" and projected with more clariity on his current mouthpiece.
Anyway, glad John took the hit for us.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-07-04 23:50
Here is a video of Gregory Raden playing the same mouthpiece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWQf4Sls9o
My personal prejudice is that the rails are too thick on BD blanks. Maybe it makes sense to make at least the tip a bit thinner. Or leave the tip as is and make the side rails a bit thinner.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-07-05 03:37
I’d say both for my preference. Although to be fair there was (is?) a Vandoren Paris video of a wonderful Italian clarinetist playing an M30 which also features the “thuddy” rails. I have NO idea how that guy made that mouthpiece sound so clear and filled with upper partials.
As John said, we all find our own solutions.
…………..Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-07-05 04:31
First of all, I didn’t know who Gregory Raden was, however, when I saw the designation “VANDORENTV” at the bottom left of the screen, I had a hunch that this was going to be a biased product review.
For those (like me) who don’t know who Gregory Raden is, Gregory is the Principle Clarinetist at the Dallas Symphony (since 1999), who normally plays an M13 Lyre mouthpiece using V12 reeds with a Vandoren M/O ligature.
https://vandoren.fr/en/artistes-vandoren/raden-gregory/
Gregory Raden is a performing artist/clinician for Buffet Crampon clarinets and Vandoren products.
https://music.unt.edu/faculty-and-staff/greg-raden
Here’s a clickable link to “Gregory Raden trying the BD2 mouthpiece”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWQf4Sls9o
OK, so let me get into some of his comments along with my personal observations:
1) The first thing I noticed was the title of the video which is “Gregory Raden trying the BD2 mouthpiece”. (Sorry, but I became a bit bewildered with the word “trying”.)
2) At 0:15, he states that he’s been “experimenting” with the BD2. I began to wonder why he choose that particular word. At 0:42 he states that “he’s still learning it” and, of course, I thought: what is there to learn about it? I believe that was revealed at 0:45 when he stated that he’s “2/3 the right reed for it.” This made me feel that “the right reed for it” was a bit difficult for him to find (MO). And then I thought...if this renowned player and Master Class lecturer is having difficulty finding the right reed, what does that imply for the semi-pro, the community band player and the college student? I don’t know. All I can think of is at his very high level of playing, perhaps he absolutely needs to be very picky when it comes to the right Vandoren reed at the right strength. (All of the preceding are just my highly subjective opinions.)
3) At 0:49, I noticed that the BD2 is in the center of his mouth. However, at 0:56, the BD2 appears to be being played off-center to the far right. Because he moves around a lot while playing, this might be a bit difficult to see. However, if you stop the video at 1:17, the left edge of the BD2 is definitely in line with the middle of his nose. Of course, this made me wonder why he (unconsciously?) decided to move the BD2 far off to his right. I have noticed this on other Dixieland videos where it seemed quite apparent to me that this was done because the clarinet player became tired while playing at one position and moved the mouthpiece position numerous times during a particular song. So, this makes me wonder if Gregory became fatigued at playing in the center and felt the need to move the BD2 off to a far right position. (I’m just curious…)
4) After he stopped playing, there was a cut in the video. At 1:32, he started to talk, however, he seemed to me to be a bit “winded” as he was speaking.
5) At 1:37, there is a pretty good picture of his ligature and it appears to be the $567 Carbon Fiber ligature, not the one listed in his bio.
So, to sum up all of above, IMHO, Gregory Raden did his best to put a positive spin on the BD2, however, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if he quickly went back to his M13 Lyre just as John Kurokawa quickly went back to his handcrafted Ramon Wodkowski mouthpiece.
Disclaimer: Again...everything I have written above is strictly my opinion.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-07-05 05:21
I thought it might be helpful to have a little counterpoint on the above.
This video was done (taking Gregory at his word) during a Clarinet Fest in Denver. It is clear that he has all the comforts of spending a few nights at a local Best Western. Also as clarinetist of the Dallas Symphony, he is used to playing at sea level. Denver sits at over 5200 feet above that. The air is thinner (you have to breathe harder to get the same amount of oxygen) AND what is even more important to us is that you need to play on reeds that are at least 1/2 strength softer (or more perhaps) to find the equivalent of what you use at sea level.
So even if you disregard those issues, it makes sense that if you really want to adjust properly to equipment for the long haul, it requires weeks and even months to "settle in" properly.
That said I personally would just take Mr. Radon at his word AND how he sounds on the mouthpiece (which is pretty darn good for a hotel room video).
Just some food for additional thought.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-07-05 08:34
Thanks Paul, I found your counterpoint to be very illuminating for me because I did not take elevation into the equation.
As you stated, Mr. Raden is used to playing at sea level altitude. The problems presented to him at 5200 feet of elevation must have been quite complex and therefore are far beyond my understanding.
Now, everything that Gregory said and did makes more sense to me.
Thanks, again.
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-07-05 17:29
As for the mouthpiece position off center...
I am afraid of being accused of conspiracy theory but I noticed this off-center mouthpiece position across several clarinetists belonging to the same school (David Weber).
My own arguments against this are:
a) it can be a coincidence
b) it may depend on the teeth' structure or
c) it's natural for right-handed persons
Another side note is that Daniel Bonade wrote about natural asymmetry in the embouchure and specific reed adjustments related to this.
The last side note is I am almost sure I have read long ago in some old German clarinet textbook that to play high notes rotate the mouthpiece so the pressure is applied more on one side of the reed.
Again, everything above is mostly my speculation, but I want to confess that I tried to move the mouthpiece a bit off-center and rotate it slightly so one part of the reed is freer and the other is more squeezed. It was an interesting and rather positive experience, though I am not doing it all the time as I don't like to feel uneven pressure on my teeth.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-07-05 19:10
Hi:
On the 26th (see my post) of last month I came across this more closed tip Black Diamond addition to the Vandoren product line by accident, visiting the Vandoren site just to see if anything new was released--purely a curiosity thing--and came across the BD2.
I am a M15 player and had tried the BD5 and found it too open for me. But the BD2, advertising a tip opening not only far closer to that of the M15, but even smaller that it, intrigue me.
As an Amazon customer--given their return policy I thought I'd try it. It came Monday and I've had very little time to devote to it, summer playing gig practice and performance on my standard setup needing to take priority.
I would incourage you to (and suspect forum members with time will) try it as well, particularly if also purchasing with a full return policy like me. I don't want to sound critical of the analysis above, which seems extremely thourough and was probably only done in lieu of the product's newness yet making it into forum member's hands, but trying to extrapolate what another player might have experienced, when even if true, may prove an entirely different experience from their own, could lead people to not try something that could be of use to them.
Perhaps it goes without saying but no clarinet product purchase pads my wallet. And as I try the mouthpiece more I'll try to comment on it and draw comparison to the M15.
:)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-07-05 20:23
To Paul:
When I did a search about people traveling to Denver from a much lower elevation, each search result started off with a warning about "elevation sickness". One search result was particularly revealing as to the number of detrimental physical and mental effects a person could experience. After taking into account all of these negative effects, it's just my personal opinion that Mr. Raden may possibly had been experiencing a sufficient level of "elevation sickness" to affect his thinking and his normal ease of high level playing. This makes sense to me. All I can say now is kudos to Mr. Raden for producing such a beautiful tone with a very pleasing fluidity to my ears.
To Alexey:
The way that you explained "off center" playing resulting in one reed edge being compressed or closer to the mouthpiece tip made sense to me that the production of tones in the upper clarion and altissimo range would be easier to start. I did a somewhat similar experiment confirming this many decades ago. Perhaps Mr. Raden did the switch from center to far right embouchure playing to facilitate easier upper clarion tone production due to less oxygen being available. (Just M/O).
To SecondTry:
By all means, if anyone is interested in the BD2...they should definitely try it. Why? Because what may be very resistant to one player does not automatically equate to the experience that another player may have.
I apologize if my verbiage persuaded anyone not to try it.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-07-06 06:27
My observations after a long afternoon and evening of play of the BD2 and M15 mouthpiece, the latter being my existing mouthpiece:
* The BD2, despite being a slightly closer tip mouthpiece than the M15 is IMHO a slightly freer blowing mouthpiece.
* As Alexey mentioned, the rails on the BD2 are slightly thicker than on the M15, and as detailed on the prior videos, the baffle is deeper.
* Articulation in all registers on the BD2 is easier for me than on the M15, but not by that much.
* Full fingered notes in the lower Clarion register express themselves slightly better for me on the BD2 than the M15.
* Intonation on the BD2 appears to be comparable to that on the M15 but some notes are for me slightly different in pitch: some being ever so slightly sharper or flatter than when played on the M15.
* Although both mouthpieces are capable of making wonderful sounds and harmonics for me, it is slightly easier on the M15, for me. to not sound airy. This is not to imply that the BD2 is anything but capable, in the right hands, and with little changes to play, to produce not only a wonderful and desired pinging sound, but without more work for me than on an M15.
* Having tested a French Legere and Vandoren VK1 synthetic on the BD2 I can say that the mouthpiece, for me, is quite compatible with these brands as well as comparable in strength cane to that I play on the M15.
* European Legere's play flat for me on an M15 mouthpiece. I have not tried them yet on the BD2.
* Playing over the break is slightly easier for me on the BD2 than the M15. I think this goes to my prior point about lower clarion notes speaking slightly easier and better for me on the BD2 than the M15.
* Until now I have not found a Vandoren mouthpiece as comfortable for me as the M15, having tried the M13, M13 Lyre, 5RV, and M30D. The BD2 is the first Vandoren mouthpiece I'd consider switching to or substituting for an M15 now and then.
* I've played an M15 for over a decade; other brand mouthpieces with far more open facings before that. As I got older I didn't want to have to work as much, and I play occasionally double lip: closer tip mouthpieces boding well for me because of this.
* Overall each mouthpiece brings certain very subtle advantages and disadvantages compared to the other for me across all aspects of play. Again, I'm not sure that I'll switch the BD2 but I will definitely keep it and think it an excellent mouthpiece that I'd recommend for players to at least try who tend to prefer more closed tip setups.
* I have been able to tell almost instantly that the other mouthpieces which I tested weren't for me, for what that's worth.
* I am unable to play any louder on the BD2 than the M15, and a cursory check of the harmonics that each mouthpiece produces across the instruments range does not appear, in an iphone TE Tuner analysis, to be markedly better or worse for me on either mouthpiece.
* Control of the either mouthpiece at pianissimo is comparable.
* I'm no Gregory Raden or John Kurokawa by any stretch of the imagination, but in no way did I have to struggle to play the BD2, should prior posts that with educated guesses propose this to be the case for these gentlemen in fact turn out to be the case. I can tell the difference between the two in a blind test, but they play very similarly for me. Of course for players coming from a mouthpiece that differs from the M15, I imagine so too will the transition to the BD2 be that much more of a stretch.
* Perhaps the BD2 may not rival a hand finished one from a top maker, but in its class of higher end machined mouthpieces I think it is first rate.
* Whatever personal adjustments I seem to need to make in my embouchure for each mouthpiece, and they are very mild and subtle, seem to me at least, in about 15 seconds of play, to be all it takes for it then to stop becoming any sort of conscience effort.
In no way do I profit from the sale of any clarinet or clarinet product.
Post Edited (2024-07-06 22:16)
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-07-06 06:38
"As for the mouthpiece position off center...
I am afraid of being accused of conspiracy theory but I noticed this off-center mouthpiece position across several clarinetists belonging to the same school (David Weber).
My own arguments against this are:
a) it can be a coincidence
b) it may depend on the teeth' structure or
c) it's natural for right-handed persons
Another side note is that Daniel Bonade wrote about natural asymmetry in the embouchure and specific reed adjustments related to this.
The last side note is I am almost sure I have read long ago in some old German clarinet textbook that to play high notes rotate the mouthpiece so the pressure is applied more on one side of the reed.
Again, everything above is mostly my speculation, but I want to confess that I tried to move the mouthpiece a bit off-center and rotate it slightly so one part of the reed is freer and the other is more squeezed. It was an interesting and rather positive experience, though I am not doing it all the time as I don't like to feel uneven pressure on my teeth."
I learned Joe Allard's embouchure technique from a former student of Allard. This method of embouchure allows for positioning the mouthpiece off center and still being able to play effectively, and it is good practice to do that at times, even if your teeth are not uneven, since sometimes the center of your embouchure muscles get tired and you need to be able to keep on playing.
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-07-06 10:51
to David Eichler :
It's one more point why it's worth trying at least from time to time. Thank you!
to SecondTry:
Thank you for the detailed review! I didn't believe that BD2 was resistant from the very beginning of the discussion. Even my BD5 is a free-blowing mouthpiece despite it being more open.
In general, I think that BD blanks have a great design. My only subjective preference is tiny thinner rails. Not because thick rails can cause sluggish response but rather how they affect sound. It feels as if it removes a bit of liveliness from the sound.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-07-06 21:15
Dan Shusta wrote:
> To Paul:
>
> When I did a search about people traveling to Denver from a
> much lower elevation, each search result started off with a
> warning about "elevation sickness".
... it's just my personal
> opinion that Mr. Raden may possibly had been experiencing a
> sufficient level of "elevation sickness" t
...
I feel incredibly lucky in that respect. I've travelled from literally sea level to the same elevation as Denver with no ill effects (Buscerias on the Pacific Coast to Guadalajara)) many times, no breathing problem, no real reduction in energy.
Really lucky. My wife is the same way, but she was raised near Guadalajara and I've never hear about problems going from high to low.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-07-06 22:28
Alexey wrote:
>
> In general, I think that BD blanks have a great design. My only
> subjective preference is tiny thinner rails. Not because thick
> rails can cause sluggish response but rather how they affect
> sound. It feels as if it removes a bit of liveliness from the
> sound.
I hear (no pun intended) that.
I have not felt, for me, a diminished liveliness in sound comparing an M15 to a BD2.
I can completely though attest to what you are talking about regarding rail thickness and sound, having played a Vandoren M30D for a while, noted for its more "covered" sound by players, and believed to be attributed in part to its thicker rails.
I feel the need to disclaim something: yes the player makes the sound, not the mouthpiece, but I feel that assigning the same player to say, an M15 and then an M30D will more likely than not tend to the production of a more "covered" auditory experience.
I should also probably define covered as I see it: a sound that on the spectrum of clarinet colors of sound is warmer, richer, and less bright. (I'll leave definition of those latter 3 terms up for grabs.) To rephrase, the opposite of what we might hear from more rather than less jazz or klezmer clarinetists: absolutely no disrespect at all intended towards those players. (I delve in the classical realm.)
Post Edited (2024-07-06 22:30)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-07-06 23:26
Hey Mark,
My internety knowledge of altitude makes me believe that it does take a bit more than 5000ft to get into really noticeable negative side effects of altitude.
But I am curious. For all the time you've traveled to Denver, what is YOUR reed strength accommodation?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: MikeSF
Date: 2024-07-07 00:48
SecondTrv, aka Andrew,
Thanks for your comparison of the BD2 and M15.
I've recently returned to playing after a 30-year break and trying to dial in my embouchure and rig. Have settled on the M15 and Fobes Nova, as these so far are my favorites, but the BD2 specs suggest it could be a strong contender.
I see you have decided to keep it which is a good sign.
I'm still weighing whether it's worth ordering and returning if my current system isn't really broke.
Thank you
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-07-07 01:20
SecondTry wrote:
Quote:
I feel the need to disclaim something: yes the player makes the sound, not the mouthpiece, but I feel that assigning the same player to say, an M15 and then an M30D will more likely than not tend to the production of a more "covered" auditory experience.
I think it depends on a reed a lot. I don't have an M30D (and I know that it's "darker" than M30) but I have M30 and M15. The main difference for me is not that one is more covered but rather that the M15 has a denser and more focused sound and the M30 has a tendency to sound a bit spread and probably mellow. However, it's possible to find a good reed and get focused sound on M30 as well.
SecondTry wrote:
Quote:
I should also probably define covered as I see it: a sound that on the spectrum of clarinet colors of sound is warmer, richer, and less bright. (I'll leave definition of those latter 3 terms up for grabs.)
This is a perfect example of how words can cheat on us. I have absolutely no idea what "warm sound" means.
"Richer sound" for me automatically means that the sound is brighter because of high overtones. But also it means that it has a strong primary tone that makes sound darker.
And "covered" for me is a sound that is rich but that is kind of round and not too straight or plain.
Post Edited (2024-07-07 01:22)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-07-07 02:31
>
> This is a perfect example of how words can cheat on us. I have
> absolutely no idea what "warm sound" means.
> "Richer sound" for me automatically means that the sound is
> brighter because of high overtones. But also it means that it
> has a strong primary tone that makes sound darker.
> And "covered" for me is a sound that is rich but that is kind
> of round and not too straight or plain.
>
>
A agree completely. My definition of a sound that's warmer richer and less bright:
https://youtu.be/lNIfHvG4Rhk?si=WX_5eD2BJzvTsN99&t=207
And a sound that while not "cold" or "poor" I might call brighter:
https://youtu.be/jMiCUTsjQCE?si=Rg7y7B5erPWFzwPY&t=19
And yet I'm sure that others might disagree and be no less valid than I am.
(I seek to pass no judgement about either artist here, both of which I think are excellent at the genre they are heard playing in these videos.)
Post Edited (2024-07-07 02:39)
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